Lilmod Ulelamaid

“That unfortunate exchange was part of a conversation which never should have taken place in the first place, and has since been deleted.”

Can you explain? I have no clue what you are talking about!

smartphone thread

Who said anything about boarding? I thought you lived in an apartment or something.

Person1: “As for the definition of being “in kolel”: when I read the resume of a girl, and it says her older brother is in kolel, I don’t take it to mean he is a great masmid. It’s about the way people talk. Nothing more.”

I hear. In this particular context, I personally didn’t think it made sense to define the term that way.

Yeshivishe kup – Reading Psukim in the Torah even if you don’t understand them is limud Torah and the rule of Talmud Torah kneged kulam applies as far as I know.

However, if it is a Mitzva sheaina yachol leiasos al yidai acheirim (a Mitzvah that no one else can do), you have to do it. I would guess that kibud av v’eim falls in that category.

However, if you are deep in the middle of a sugya and it will disturb your learning, it’s possible that it is different, since it might fall under the category of “chayecha kodmim.” In general, kibud av v’eim is not supposed to be at the expense of your own life, and it makes sense that one would not have to interrupt “real learning” to wash the dishes, especially since it is doubtful that the dishes absolutely have to be washed at that moment and that there is no one else around to do it (just a guess regarding what your Rebbe meant).

I am surprised that your Rav’s wife asked him to do the laundry when he was deep in a sugya. I am guessing that was a rare occurrence, and hence, the reason he only had to decline helping her due to his learning one time in his life.

Based on the way your post is phrased, I am guessing that your Rebbe was trying to be mechanech his students not to try to come up with excuses not to help their parents.

Health – as I pointed out to Sparkly, that’s not a proof. The OP was phrased, “Why do working people TEND to not be as ruchniyus as Kollel people?” If it had been phrased, “Why are working people NEVER as ruchniyus as Kollel people?”, you would be correct.

No one said that there aren’t people who work who are very Ruchniusnik. It was a question of averages. Since it’s a hard thing to measure and can only lead to Sinas Chinam, I don’t know that I agree with the whole topic being raised in the first place. But your point does not really prove anything.

Sparkly – what’s not true?

Person1: “My answers to the OP question: there are many people who are in kolel and are complete batlonim and have no yiras shomaim. Just mitvas anoshim melumodo.”

Those are obviously not the people that the OP was referring to. If they are batlanim, they are not “in Kollel” by definition, even if they spend their day hanging out in the Beis. For that matter, you can say that the janitor is in kollel too (that would actually be more accurate than saying that the batlanim are in kollel.). Additionally, they are a minority and should not be brought up in every Kollel discussion in order to make it sound like that is what kollel is about. All Avreichim whom I know are extremely serious masmidim and bnei Torah and bnei aliyah.

“I do agree that there are more gdoylim (in both torah and maasim tovim) to be found inside the kolel than outside. That’s not surprising, because someone who is ben alie will try harder to stay in torah learning.”

That had occurred to me as well. That someone who is a more ruchniyus person to start with is more LIKELY to end up in Kollel (not to imply that there can’t be very Ruchnius people who are working, just talking about probabilities here. After all, someone who has no desire for Ruchnius is a lot less likely to consider going to kollel).

Absan, as you yourself wrote, you can choose how to read someone’s words. Read HaLeiVi’s post carefully. He has a very good point. (disclaimer: I wouldn’t have necessarily phrased it that way, and I am not giving a “haskama” to the post. BUT if someone thinks that you can choose how to read someone’s post, this is a good place to start, since there is a good point there if you choose to read it the right way, as you pointed out.).

I think his point is that sometimes when people speak out for “ahavas chinom”, they are actually doing the opposite. It may be unintentional, but it is something to be aware of so that one can try to avoid it.

“”Are you a Michigander?”

I assume that’s what they call people from Michigan”

Actually, I was always told that they are are called “Mushegeners”.

“(I don’t see why it makes a difference if the school is for boys or girls, but that may be in the funding structure).”

It was – most Chareidim send their boys to schools that are completely private and their girls to Bais Yaakovs which are partially funded by the government, although there are also many Chareidim who send their girls to completely private schools as well (perhaps for this very reason – there is less government control).

Joseph, shkoyach on bumping this thread! Tizkeh L’Mitzvos!

I deliberately didn’t read the article. What type of school are we talking about? Is it a boys’s school or a girls’ school? If it’s a girls’ school, is it a Bais Yaakov or a (completely) private school? If it’s a boys’ school, is Chinuch Atzmai or a regular chareidi school (which would mean it’s a private school)?

GAW – we are only talking about a case where all else is equal, and it shouldn’t have even been necessary to write that. I only wrote that in case there were people who didn’t realize that any time you compare one thing to another thing, you have to assume that everything else is equal or the argument is pointless. It’s like when you are conducting an experiment to compare two things and you have to make sure that everything is equal besides the thing that you are testing (is that the variable? – I can’t remember the scientific terms right now.)

Meno – good point. It does sound like she is being flexible now even if she wasn’t originally -she is open to learning or working.

Meno – was that whole thing a joke? I can never be sure with you.

Amichai: “I can not believe you can write something like this.

I know many many balei batim, young and old that have only one

thing they would want to be doing and that is learning.

they are at daf yomi at 5.oo am, then davening.

middle of the day after mincha there are shiurim in offices, maariv

at nite at home and shiurim at nite or daf yomi.

don’t ever say balei batim are not spiritual like kollel avreichim”

Amichai, if they would rather be learning than doing anything else, that means that they think that it is better to learn (if one can). Why do they think that it is better to learn if one can? And why do they try to spend as much time learning as they can? It is because they think that learning makes a person more Ruchnius and the more they learn, the more ruchniusdik they will be. So you have just proven the OP’s point that the more someone learns, the more ruchnius he will be.

Note: That does not necessarily mean he is a better person. Only Hashem can judge who is a better person than who. We do not know and have no way of knowing what people’s bechira levels are, and therefore we can never possibly discuss such a thing. Whenever we talk about someone being better, we can never mean who is a better person in terms of how much they have grown and how much reward Hashem will give them, since we never have any way of knowing such a thing.

We can only talk about who is “more ruchnius” in this world and who has it better in the here and now. The more a person learns (all else being equal), the more ruchniusdik he is. That is why everyone should learn as much as he can (“as much as he can” obviously involves many factors and is very subjective), and should be happy that he has as many opportunities to learn as he does, and be jealous (kinas sofrim) of those who learn more and realize how lucky they are to be able to learn more then him and strive and daven for more opportunities to learn.

Wolf: “I was always taught that it’s not the price of the gift that matters, but how much thought you put into it. If it makes your wife/husband happy, does it really matter how much it costs?”

Like!

Sparkly: good attitude.if my guy wants to go to kollel so be it. if my guy wants to go to work so be it. i dont care as long as his a good frum boy.

Yekke2: “Lilmoid Ulelameid is one of the nicest posters i’ve seen here”

Thanks! 🙂

HaLeivi: missed that. However, under the circumstances, I think it was the most appropriate response. When someone insults you, best to make a joke out of it! 🙂 I’m trying to learn from Meno – he’s become my role model.

“Will those in favor, please give one Gadol who says this is OK”

Who says that what is ok?