Lilmod Ulelamaid

“You can still see it in Eretz Yisrael today.

True, although easier when everyone else around you also has nothing.”

True, but still not simple. And there are always those who have less than others. And often, people take turns being the one who has less than others, so many people get to be in that situation.

But, if you are going to be poor, it is definitely MUCH more geshmak to be poor in Eretz Yisrael where there is so much more ruchnius, so you don’t need the gashmius as much!!! And where there is so much more hashagacha pratis (see the Ramban – sorry I don’t have the source,and I’m too busy making potato kugel to look it up :))

Mammele: “Hevei dan es kol haadam l’kaf zchus” I am sure the mother is suffering enough; let’s not add to her suffering by maligning her.

Likelihood is that she did forget the baby, and remembered when she left the store, and that’s why she asked where the baby was.

“LU – Stop dreaming! I’ve been in Lakewood for many, many years.”

So have I! And almost everyone I know, if not everyone is EXTREMELY mistapek b’muat and sacrifices a TON for Torah AND Chesed!!!! You may know different people than I do, and I feel really badly for you, because there are so many wonderful people in Lakewood whom you can meet. If you do know other people, please take note of the crucial note in my last post before commenting further!!! Please!!! Moshiach IS coming this year, if we only let him!!!!!

Sparkly:

” Meno – im NOT married but when i do get married its up to my husband if i cover my hair or not. so for example right now i have 2 shidduchim with 2 wonderful guys b’h so 1 wants me to cover my hair the other doesnt so if either shidduch works out its up to them NOT me.”

Sparkly, according to halacha, it is up to you, not your husband. You have the bechira to choose your husband, and the responsibility to choose a husband who will not pressure you to stop keeping halacha. If you do end up marrying such a person, it is still in your hands to keep halacha.

I have a friend whose cousin covers her hair even though her husband tells her every day how ugly she looks (can’t even imagine how much schar she will get for covering her hair under those circumstances!), but I wouldn’t advise marrying someone like that l’chatchila (at the time she got married, she thought that covering your hair was a chumra so she didn’t start covering her hair until many years later when she found out it was an actual halacha).

Btw, I feel very honored to have a thread named for me! Thanks CA!

Thanks. I’d been having a really hard time figuring that out.

Meno:”side question: Sima Batsheva, if they shave off all their hair, why do they still cover their heads?”

Meno, if you hair was shaved, wouldn’t you want to cover it (especially if you were a lady)? Besides, from a halachic perspective, the hair is constantly growing in, and you wouldn’t be able to shave it the second a hair pops up.

Sparkly: “coffee addict – whos joe?”

Joseph.

I glanced at the responses to my post. One glance was enough. Please, if you care at all about Am Yisrael, reread this paragraph and stop doing things that lead to more chayalim and other yidden being killed:

“Again, I beg of all of you, do not turn this into a Sinas Chinam thread. Most of you are neither learning full-time or serving in the army. You are not helping Am Yisrael in either of these ways. If you want to help Am Yisrael, if you want to make sure that one less chayal is killed, that one more mother does not have to sit shiva for her teen-age son, you can do your part by refraining from Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam. In that way, you can accomplish much, much more than all of the chayalim in the Israeli Army put together.”

Shkoyach Daas Yachid!

“Some of this is true, but what about the fact that people in the army are risking their lives? Many soldiers are killed/captured/wounded, that is a sacrifice people who avoid the army do not make.”

That is true, and my post was not intended to belittle the sacrifices made by chayalim, and I am “makir tov” to them as well (even though I personally feel that they would be helping the country more by learning, and I think that the Yeshiva Bochurim are doing more for me, I realize that they don’t realize that/feel differently/can’t be learning/perhaps we do need some people in the army to protect the country physically, etc., and that they are putting their lives in danger to help Am Yisrael.

However, the sacrifices made by those who choose to learn instead of going to the army often go unnoticed and people assume they are “taking the easy way out” when in fact, the sacrifices they are making may in fact be much greater.

A few points to keep in mind when comparing the sacrifices made:

1. Not all chayalim put their lives in danger. Only the ones in combat units do. I don’t know numbers, but MANY chayalim are not in combat units and are not putting their lives in danger.

2. In Israel, most or much of the danger from the enemies affects everyone equally (bombs, scuds, terrorist attacks, etc.)

3. If you grow up in Israeli non-Chareidi society, for the most part you don’t WANT to NOT go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you are not a MAN. Boys who are not accepted into the army are not happy about it and TRY to get in (I have personally known boys like that who were VERY upset about not getting into the army or not getting into a combat unit).

4. It is very difficult to compare one type of difficulty to another, and I know that this is going to cause a lot of back-and-forth arguments (sigh), but it does seem to me pretty clear actually that not having a parnassah is one of the greatest challenges that there is, and most people would willingly put their lives in danger to earn a parnassah if they had to. We see all the time that this is so – in the olden days, people worked in dangerous mines (I think – I don’t know history so well, so I may need help from fellow posters on this one, but I am sure that people have always been willing to put their lives in danger and do whatever it took to earn a parnassah).

The Aruch HaShulchan in the halachos of bentching mentions that not having a parnassah is the greatest difficulty that one can have.

5. One of the MK’s from a non-Chareidi party said that there are three services that Israelis perform for the country:

a) army service, b) working c) Limud Torah.

She said that of the three, Limud Torah is the hardest since unlike army service, it does not merely last for 3 years but rather for many,many years,maybe an entire life. Also, unlike most jobs which are only for 8 hours a day, learning is for the entire day. Learning involves the most intense on-going commitment of any of the 3 types of service.

6. I have heard that it is REALLY difficult to learn all day. My impression is that it is much harder than going to the army. This may be hard for an American to understand (especially someone who is not learning all day). On the one hand, if you haven’t tried to do it, it is hard to understand how hard it is to learn all day. On the other hand, if you are not from Israel, going to the army sounds like the hardest thing in the world. I am not saying it is not hard, but if you grow up with it, it is not AS hard as it sounds. You do not have to be as self-motivated as you do when you learn.

7. Living in Israel, not going to the army IS going against the tide. While it is true, as someone pointed out in another thread, that if you are part of Chareidi society, in a certain sense, deferring army service is not going against the tide, at the same time, in a certain sense it is (which is why I initially said so and why I still stand by that). Even if you are part of a Chareidi society, you are still part of the country as a whole. You are very aware of the fact that the country is at war, and you hear about chayalim being killed, and you are aware that they are fighting (physically) and you are not. You are very aware of what the rest of the country thinks of you for not fighting (physically). You have to go down to the draft deferment office on a regular basis and prove that you are learning so that you don’t have to go to the army. You can’t get a job because you didn’t go the army. You are despised and looked down at as a draft dodger by many, including many religious people. Posters in the Coffee Room of Yeshiva World write posts for the entire world to see saying that you are taking the easy way out because you don’t want to go to the army. You don’t receive the many benefits that the government gives those who go to the army. Instead of being supported by the government, you have to pay the government money every month from the time you turn 18 even though you are in Yeshiva and not earning any money. The government holds you prisoner and will not allow you to leave the country even for a visit without their permission (which they will only grant for specific reasons and for a specified period of time).

Yet you are willing to make these sacrifices because you know it is for Am Yisrael’s own good.

8. Keep in mind that even if you want to claim that as an individual in the Chareidi world, someone who defers the army is not going against the tide, the Chareidi world itself didn’t come out of nowhere. The Chareidi world had to fight against the tide and is continually fighting for its very existence. The Chareidi world started out as a tiny, powerless entity, and is continually fighting for its very existence against the Secular Zionist Government who is in control and much more powerful and is continually trying to destroy it. They have only managed to succeed in maintaining their community through their constant vigilance and vigor in defending their right to exist and not be swallowed up by the Secular Zionist society that is trying to pressure them to assimilate. If an individual in Chareidi society feels that it is easy (which I can’t imagine to be the case) to learn and defer army service, it is only because the Chareidi society has been fighting very hard against the tide to create a society like that – a society in which it is possible for a boy to grow up and learn Torah and not assimilate into the secular majority.

Please Note: there is something a bit troublesome about arguing about who is sacrificing more than who. We all have to try to look at each other positively and appreciate what each one is doing for Am Yisrael and not be trying to prove who is better. I would really appreciate it if people would make sure that this thread does not turn into a sinas chinam/motzi shem ra thread. I am not trying to belittle the sacrifices that ANYONE makes for Am Yisrael or find the worst in anyone. My sole purpose was to defend those people who are defending the country by learning Torah against those who spoke negatively about them. Everyone is aware of the sacrifices made by chayalim; the sacrifices and contributions made by Bnei Torah are harder for many to see, so it is important to emphasize them. I personally feel (as do Gedolei Yisrael) that if one wants to give to Am Yisrael, he can give the most by learning Torah, and that we have to show the utmost respect and hakaras hatov to those who learn. On the one hand, through learning, one can do the most for Am Yisrael, so those who learn are doing the most for us. On the other hand, it IS harder for most people to see it, so it has to be emphasized. At the same time, I respect those people who feel they are contributing by serving in the army and/or working and I have hakaras hatov to them as well.

Regardless of who you feel is sacrificing the most and whether or not you agree with my points, that is not the most important issue anyhow. Those who decide to learn don’t make the decision to do so because they think it involves more sacrifices. They do so because they feel they are helping Am Yisrael the most this way, regardless of whether it involves more sacrifices or less sacrifices. It leads to less sacrifices; that is why they do it, and that is what counts.

Again, I beg of all of you, do not turn this into a Sinas Chinam thread. Most of you are neither learning full-time or serving in the army. You are not helping Am Yisrael in either of these ways. If you want to help Am Yisrael, if you want to make sure that one less chayal is killed, that one more mother does not have to sit shiva for her teen-age son, you can do your part by refraining from Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam. In that way, you can accomplish much, much more than all of the chayalim in the Israeli Army put together.

Kesiva V’chasima Tova!

Sparkly, your skirt has to be long enough that your knees will not show AT ALL in any position, whether you are sitting or walking or getting into a car. As I pointed out earlier, this means that that it HAS to be at least 4 inches below your knee, and most of the time a lot more. For a straight skirt, it has to be a lot more than that in order to ensure that your knees are covered AT ALL TIMES.

I think that some girls may be nechshol BECAUSE of the 4- inch rule. Instead of checking if their knees are covered at all times, they assume that as long as their skirts are 4 inches, they are okay, and that is not necessarily the case.

One pitfall that I have noticed is that sometimes girls/women will buy skirts that cover their knees as long as they don’t cross their legs, and they think that they will never cross their legs so it will be okay, but then without thinking, they forget and cross their legs.

Another pitfall is that some skirts are fine until you get in a car and start driving.

Another pitfall is that getting into cars makes your skirt go up, so you have to make sure that your skirt is long enough that your knees do not show when you get into a car. (personally, I never let my friend’s husband give me a ride unless I am wearing a REALLY long skirt, because when he drives me, I have to sit in the back seat, and the back seat of their minivan has a very high step).

Another pitfall, IMHO, (and I know that there are people who will disagree with this) is that nowadays it has become fairly widely accepted that most people wear stockings/tights as opposed to knee-his. I personally feel that people are sometimes less careful about letting their knees show because they think that it’s not such a big deal because they are wearing stockings. I wonder if they would be more careful if they were wearing knee his. The counter-argument that some might have is that some might feel that it has become minhag hamakom to wear stockings. In any case, stockings or not, you have to make sure that your knees are covered at all times. In Rav Bodner’s sefer on hilchos brachos, he writes that the difference between your knees showing with or w/o stockings is that if you are wearing stockings, a man does not have to turn around to make a bracha, he only has to close his eyes or look down (I hope that was quoted accurately – I don’t have the sefer on me – but I do know that it was a very small difference, and either way it is still a BIG problem).

Another pet peeve of mine: people who think it is untznius to wear long skirts, and meanwhile, they and many others wear skirts that are not long enough to make sure their knees are covered at all times. WEAR LONG SKIRTS, AS LONG AS YOU WANT – it is for sure one thousand times better than your knees showing, IMHO! (okay, MAYBE, they shouldn’t go all the way to the floor – I don’t know- but even that is better than your knees showing).

End of rant.

Yeshivishe kup – first of all, I’m a girl, so I actually don’t know what you’re talking about. Second of all, I don’t think that means that it doesn’t count as learning Torah. The one thing I know about the topic is that Torah Shebichtav counts as learning whether or not you understand it, but for Torah Sheb’al peh, you have to understand it. But I can’t imagine that the mehalech you’re using matters. According to that logic, it would be bitul Torah to learn the way most people learn.

Charlie Hall “”our gedolim of today made it HALCHA!”

That is not true. They can establish new minhagim that might be binding for their own communities but no single rabbi has the power to actually change halachah in our times.”

Very true, and that is the point I was trying to make. Thank you Charlie! It is crucial to know the difference between halacha and minhag. I was very concerned, HGG, about the fact that you think this is halacha yet you stated that you don’t keep it. If it really were halacha, not keeping it would NOT be an option.

That statement illustrated to me the dangers of misrepresenting minhagim as halacha. When someone thinks that all of the minhagim or hiddurim are halachos, they feel that they can’t keep all of it, so they develop a lax attitude to halacha since they think it’s impossible to keep everything.

If they would know which things are clear-cut black & white halachos, they would realize that even if they aren’t yet up to keeping all of the minhagim, it is not so hard to keep all the halachos (while gradually working on the minhagim/hidurim). They would realize what a serious thing it is to not keep an actual halacha and they would never think of saying the words, “it’s halacha, but I don’t keep it.”

Tznius is more complicated as I pointed out, but there still are things that are black & white halachos handed down from Chazal and written in the Shulchan Aruch and things that are not.