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I’m still trying to find the exact source, but I wanted to clarify what I am talking about. I was talking about the idea of seeing anything that can fall under the category of pritzus/tumah. I think it is pretty clear that this is assur/problematic for men and women (aside from the fact that I was told by a Rav whom I asked that it is) whether it’s an actual halacha or a middah. Different people may categorize pritzus differently according to their levels of sensitivity, so exactly what falls under that category may be subjective, and some people’s sensitivities can sound extreme to others who may be on a different level of sensitivity.
Also, according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not even supposed to be untznius in the privacy of your home (as in having anything uncovered that is normally covered, meaning even walking around w/o socks if you normally wear socks) so I would think it’s a kal v’chomer to seeing someone else dressed untzniusly (for no purpose). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal says that it’s a midas chassidus. However, it still is something to strive for, each on his/her own level, and it is brought down in the Shulchan Aruch.
If this is hard to relate to, think about it in less extreme terms. I think that everyone would agree that there are things that girls shouldn’t see; some people will have different levels of sensitivity regarding what they think is a problem. I would give examples of what I mean, but if I do, the moderators won’t let this post through (rightly so).
I am not talking about the issurim that men have of not seeing women dressed untzniusly. I am talking about the general concept of staying away from tumah, and making sure that your thoughts are tahor and kadosh. That is something that applies to women as well as men and possibly, more so.
I just got the answer to the eyeshadow question according to Rav Leff. You can look it up on his website. A girl asked him the same question – is eyeshadow assur because of what it says in Yeshayahu.
He answers that the problem in the days of Yeshayahu was that they were wearing eyeshadow in a gaudy fashion. If you wear it in a gaudy fashion, it’s for sure assur. If you wear it moderately, then it depends on the custom in your community.
Joseph, someone wrote that you started this topic many times. I couldn’t find that anywhere (but I still can’t figure out how to find things).
Thank you Joseph. Regarding the first one, I wasn’t sure what I would put in the search box for this.
Sparkly, so that means that you can’t talk to your Rav anymore. And you can’t go on any more dates or ever talk to any boy or man in any context.
I don’t know a single person who never talks to members of the opposite gender. Even Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita does in certain situations, or at least he did when his wife, zatsal, was alive and pressed him to.
A moderator wrote near the beginning of this thread that this topic has been started before. How would one find those threads?
I don’t know – hard to explain – I guess the same way I would be uncomfortable in real life talking to a man if I didn’t know whether or not he’s married.
Joseph, in my opinion it has to be milk chocolate. Also, I’m not sure if it applies to men. I think chocolate might be a girl thing. I once read that women NEED to have a certain amount of chocolate in their diets.
Then again, I love meat and wine, so I suppose there can be men who like chocolate.
Sparkly – ???? You are the one who always says that it’s not a problem!!!
lol. That is really funny. When I was thinking this over earlier today, I was thinking that the only way I could see wanting a recycled engagement ring is if it had belonged to someone chashuve. Rebbetzin Kanievsky Zatsal was the example I thought of! And I had been thinking of writing that!
Tachlis, I’m still not sure. I could see either way. L’maaseh, I think I will have to have a chasson before I can have any idea how I would feel about a ring.
Shopping 613, I have always found doctors to be incredibly unhelpful when it comes to these kinds of things. When I was a teenage, I had a certain physical problem. I went to doctor after doctor, and all they could tell me was that it was probably stress. I had no idea what to do with that answer. Meanwhile, I had a problem and no one was giving me any aitza regarding how to solve it. When they said it was stress, it just made me feel like I was crazy or something.
Eventually (after a really long time), I figured out that the main issue was that I was not getting enough sleep. The second main issue was probably not giving myself time to chill. Why didn’t it occur to one person to ask a teenage girl if she is getting enough sleep?!!
I’m not saying that Pringles shouldn’t try going to a doctor. It’s definitely worth a try because they may be able to help. BUT, I just wouldn’t hold my breathe too hard, based on my experiences.
Meno – good idea. It really is the next best thing after sleeping!
Sparkly – have you tried chocolate or sleep?
“Now you two are just acting silly.”
Huh? That’s both insulting and random. Neither I nor DY said anything that was the slightest bit silly. What I was trying to say was that I thought that the way you expressed yourself was offensive. I was TRYING to say it in a nice way.
I see now that you didn’t mean for it to come out the way that it did, but I think it should have been expressed differently. I also really don’t think that anything should have been said at all if you are not sure if there is a halachic issue, especially since this is something that everyone does and is very mekubal.
Meno, I was going to send a smiley on your last comment, but now I’m scared to.
Person1 – as far as I recall, you’ve always been appropriate.
Personally, I do talk to members of the opposite gender in real life which is mainly because I am in a different stage of life than many people here. I don’t think that I do anything differently here than I do in real life, and I davka find myself putting in an extra effort here to be careful and make sure that I don’t write anything inappropriate. There have been many times when I starting writing something and changed the way I was writing it for these kinds of reasons.
I do wish that I knew who was married and who is not. It does me uncomfortable talking to men if I don’t even know if they are married or not.
Joseph, I have no idea. Maybe yes or maybe no.
Meno: “Are you getting at least 8 hours of sleep every night?”
Perhaps you missed the part when he/she said,
“I come home to…children…”
Well then, I guess that answers that. I think there are parents who manage to get 8 hours of sleep at night. It’s hard, but if it’s important enough, it MIGHT be possible to find a way.
Alternatively, there’s always chocolate.
My next question was going to be, “Do you get enough chocolate?” (and I know everyone thinks I’m joking, but I’m not).
The next idea would be to try to find time to either take a walk/exercise/relax/ do something fun or to take a vacation if that’s an option.
It’s very possible that you are just working too hard (working 8 hours a day and coming home to kids is a lot even if the rest of the world does it!). I assume you have no choice, but it’s important to TRY to find a way to relax.
I agree with 2scents, yitay and Syag. It occurred to me at a certain point that I shouldn’t have told anyone my gender, especially since everyone thought I was a boy, so I could have left it at that.
That being said, everyone has to make their own cheshbonos just like they do in “real life”. The problem is when people have completely different standards (or no standards) for online as opposed to “real life”.
Personally, smileys don’t bother me (depending on the context, although I could see why some might not like it), but I don’t like ;)’s. That’s just my personal opinion.
Are you sleeping enough? Are you getting at least 8 hours of sleep every night? If you are, are they consistently at the same time? Is it possible you need more than eight hours? Do you get woken up during the night? Are you a light sleeper?
I think that someone (maybe Rav Avigdor Miller), whenever anyone complained of depression, he said the first thing to do is to make sure you are getting enough sleep. I know that for me that is very true.
Of course, there are many other possibilities, but I think that lack of sleep must be ruled out first, IMHO.
I don’t even understand Joseph’s question – I haven’t learned science since 10th grade!
“Isn’t it a bit disconcerting to assume that a divorced woman’s books, jewelry and possessions become contaminated, verboten and unfit for others use upon her divorce?”
I hear. I guess it depends if you’re talking about a situation in which the fact that the person happens to be divorced is something that I will associate with my use of the object. With an engagement ring that would most probably be the case. With the other examples, that may or may not be the case.
Personally, I don’t think I would want a recycled engagement ring. Not to sound spoiled – I don’t know if I would need one altogether, and I don’t know if I would care if it’s diamond or not- but, if I were already getting one, I think I might find it strange to get a recycled one.
DY & Yichusdik, you both have very good points.
I do think, Sparkly, that at this stage in life you should be working on yourself first, and then you will be more qualified to do kiruv. I definitely think that you should go to E”Y for the year.
Geordie613 – no, I haven’t seen a Mishpacha magazine in a while. But why are you davka asking me to read it???
Meno – not fair! Now there will be two threads about topics that I am clueless about 🙁
Softwords – You are only allowed to give someone mussar if you KNOW that they are doing something that is clearly assur. If you are not sure, you should not give mussar until you look into it and are sure.
Using an expression that you heard from goyim is vadei not assur, and something that everyone does. Now using the english language might be a problem, but since we are all doing that, you can’t really give someone mussar for it.
GAW- you are right. I was talking about something different than what you and DY are talking about. It’s a fair question, and I will get back to you with an answer when I have a chance to think it through.
Amongst other things, don’t you have to say it b’lashon neder or b’lashon shvuah? I’m far from an expert in the topic, but I did have a sheilah in this area once, and I’m almost positive that’s what I was told.
I also thought that if it was clearly a joke, it wouldn’t be an issue. If it would be, most people would be in trouble.
Also, if it doesn’t have to be b’lashon neder, we would all be “over” on it all the time. “I’ll be there in 5 minutes.” “I’ll see you tomorrow.” etc.
Of course, there is probably a “maaleh’ to being extremely careful with all of one’s words, but you don’t give someone “mussar” for not being on a higher level (especially if almost no one in the world is on that level) as long as they are not performing an outright clear-cut issur.
Granted, the Gedolim are probably on that level, and I can understand if you thought that DY is one of the Gedolim and hence, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. THAT was probably what you meant to say :)!
Shopping613 – I think Sparkly means the people she met when she was in high school. She was homeschooled, so I don’t think she means the people she met IN high school, but rather the people she met while SHE was in h.s.
you’re all right, and all of the above points should be taken into account. Kiruv can be good for the person doing it or it can be detrimental. Anyone who works in Kiruv has to continually do a cheshbon hanefesh to see if it is causing him to go down in any way. If he sees
that it is, he must find a way to counteract that or get out of kiruv (depending how badly it is affecting him and if he has a way to avoid it).
When I was in seminary, I attended a program on doing Kiruv. I remember that one of the speakers stressed the fact that you must make sure that you set aside time for your own spiritual growth.
If you do go into kiruv, Sparkly, I think you HAVE to make sure that you have a Rav/Rebbetzin/mentor whom you are in constant touch with for both aitzas and halacha sheilahs.
I do think that doing kiruv could potentially be very good for you, but you must have some guidance while doing it.
Hatzlacha!
I’m not blaming him – this is a fictional story, so I don’t want it to sound like motzi shem ra on him. I’m sure that no one who ever read his books got divorced.
Let’s say a fictional author wrote a fictional book about marriage and it had the name of someone divorced in the cover – that would make me nervous. I’m not saying it’s necessarily rational, but emotions don’t always have to be rational. The whole idea of giving your Kallah a diamond has to do with emotions, not rationality.
And it clearly didn’t help her. That would make me nervous! But maybe it’s the men’s book, and she wasn’t supposed to have read it and that’s what caused the problem! 🙂
Joseph – the pharmacists seem to agree with you, because I think I remember them telling me there is no difference. But I would rather rely on what I see for myself than what the pharmacists tell me!
sorrry, but that sounds like it borders on kefira. Even if it was meant as a joke (which I’m assuming was the case), you have to be careful about making statements like that. Especially in today’s climate in which there are people who unfortunately have taken the bracha of “shelo asani isha” out of the davening.
Famous story: Someone (can’t remember who) met with the Chafetz Chaim. The Chafetz Chaim asked him if he’s a Cohen. The Chafetz Chaim asked him, “Why aren’t you a Cohen?” He was puzzled by the question, but he responded, “because my father was not a Cohen.” The Chofetz Chaim asked him, “Why wasn’t your father a Cohen?” The Chofetz Chaim asked, “Why wasn’t your father a Cohen?” “Because his father wasn’t.”
The conversation went on like that for a while until the Chofetz Chaim finally explained what he was getting at: “I am a Cohen and will perform the Avoda in the Beis HaMikdash and you are not a Cohen and will not perform the avoda in the Beis HaMikdash BECAUSE when Moshe Rabeinu said “Mi LaHashem Aelai”, my great great grandfather answered the call, and yours didn’t. Make sure you answer the call the next time you hear it!”
All of the Shevatim were originally meant to be Cohanim (represented by their b’chorim). It is due to our deficiencies that we were not zoche to be Cohanim. It is a privilege to be a Cohen, and not something to thank Hashem for NOT being! Especially since it is due to OUR own deficiencies that we are not Cohanim.
lightbrite:”—Maybe it’s just me, but buying a used car or chandelier that once belonged to a couple no-longer together is a lot different than a item of jewelry given as a token of a union (even if it is only a secular custom).”
I agree with that.
Hope it’s not twenty questions 🙂
Sparkly: “Happygirlygirl – yes that way we can avoid that thread.”
That depends what the reason is that she hates it!
Dy- thanks so much for bringing sources. Will look at them later when I have a chance.
Joseph – I have noticed with allergy medicines that some brands seem to work for me better than others even if they are supposed to be the same thing.
Joseph: “Would you be hesitant to purchase Rabbi Arush’s book on shalom bayis from a used book shop if you saw written on the inside page the name of a divorced woman?”
Actually I think I would be! I definitely thought it was funny when a school I worked in gave out books on relationships written by someone who is divorced! Then again, I have heard of divorced marriage therapists who were reportedly really good marriage therapists (although I don’t know if they really were or not).
Sparkly – so find someone else to organize it and offer to help!
I’d love to help you out with this -it sounds like a very worthwhile cause – but I’m in EY & don’t even know where you live. If there are Frum college-aged girls in your college & neighborhood, it is really important that someone do SOMETHING!
Can you talk to other girls from the shiur and see if one of them wants to organize something? Maybe you guys can find another Rabbi/Rebbetzin in the neighborhood who is willing to give a shiur? If you offer to pay, I can’t imagine that there aren’t people who would be happy to do it.
Sparkly – Is this your last year of college (meaning you’re asking what to do next year – fall, 2017-fall,2018?)
Sparkly – what are you nervous abou?
“however I have to say certain threads I can’t stand so….I don’t have where to write”
I can relate to that! 🙁
Sparkly – what in the world are you talking about???? Going to EY to learn is not just for kids!!! People go at all ages!! I have taught at many schools for adult women. The women in these places are anywhere from 19-80. Davka a lot of them were in the gap year between college and graduate school. That is a very common time to come. I think that in some ways, some people may get more out of it at that age.