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“In all fairness I don’t think anyone can use the word smoking and healthy in the same sentence and assume people will not be speaking of physical health.
And with a bit of irony to jump at his response (and mine too, shortly) using these words:
“That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault.”
this statement goes towards posters as well, regardless of the “assumed” meaning based on previous posts.”
I had explained right away what the Rosh Yeshiva had meant by health. I was the only one here who was part of the conversation, so I am the only one who can tell you what took place. You don’t have to believe me, but if you are going to believe me for part of the conversation, it makes sense to believe the rest. Obviously, I didn’t give over every word and every nuance of the conversation. It probably would have been more accurate to have said, “It was clear from the conversation that he was not talking about physical health”. Okay, now I said it! Now it should be clear to everyone if it wasn’t before!
ZD:”I am 100% opposed to smoking , Ive never smoked, refuse to go near people who smoke and think its a disgusting habit, but this does touch into a bigger issue, you cant really ban everything. it just doesnt work. The more things you assur, the more likely you will have people committing averiahs”
well said. I think it also explains why my friend and her husband (parents of the above boy) “allowed” him to smoke, and even bought the cigarettes for him (for those who wanted to know where the money came from). I think that his father was acting out of his educational philosophies of not banning everything and making things into issues. The boy knows that his father himself doesn’t smoke and that it’s not a good thing to do, and therefore, he never had a “hava mina” to continue smoking into adulthood, but he needed to be a “teenager” to some extent.
His father realized that, and realized that it was better that he not feel like it was something he had to do behind his parents’ backs. Once a kid starts feeling like he has to do things behind his parents’ backs – that’s when you can start to have a serious problem on your hands.
DY – “going to movies”
I don’t think so – I wasn’t the one who mentioned movies. I think it had to do with smoking – I’m just not sure what exactly she was responding to, and I can’t respond to her unless I know.
DY: “ZD, agreed again.”
same here. also on the last point.
I’m pretty sure it’s a chok. As Apushatayid said (true to his name), we do it because Hashem said to. The whole idea of a chok is that we don’t understand the reason behind it, and we don’t NEED to understand the reason for it. We do it because Hashem said to and we love Hashem and we know that everything He commands us is for our good and helps us to build a relationship with Him.
The fact that we don’t know the reason and are doing it just because Hashem said to and we love Hashem makes it more meaningful. We are doing it completely out of love for Hashem. It’s like the possuk that Hashem says that He remembers the kindness of our youth, how we followed Him into the desert, etc… The idea that we showed our love and trust in Him by following Him into the desert.. it’s the same idea here, that we follow Him out of love and trust even when we don’t understand.
This is something I am sure you can relate to, Sparkly, since you have mentioned that in the past you could have gone OTD but didn’t because of your love for Hashem.
So in essence, if you really want to know why we do it – out of love for Hashem, period.
Sparkly: “lilmod ulelamaid – if someone is doing something wrong they DO NEED an explanation for doing it.”
What exactly was this in response to?
The little I know, you are missing the point about what this thread is about, and hence, what my comments are in response to. If you want to know, go back and read the OP. As you yourself write, “. I cannot declare him to be a baal aveiroh, just a choleh.”
You also didn’t read what I wrote carefully. I never wrote that it is okay to smoke just because a Talmid Chacham does. I also mentioned nothing about addictions.
CY: I realized afterwards that this sentence was probably unnecessary and shouldn’t have been included: “But I also thought it was obvious and didn’t need an explanation.” My apologies.
29- glad you asked. It’s actually a chiyuv, not a heter. If you can prevent someone from speaking motzi shem ra, you have a chiyuv to do so. Since I know you are a tzadeikis who usually deletes motzi shem ra when it is pointed out, I have a chiyuv to do so (well actually, even if you weren’t a tzadeikis, I would still have a chiyuv to point it out.)
btw, I have asked a sheilah about this and I was told that I have a chiyuv to comment when Motzi Shem Ra is written, which is why I do it, even though it is very difficult for me and acting against my nature.
DY: “That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault. If someone were not either of those, the actual meaning of that statement would be obvious.”
Precisely. And I did clarify with the boy at the time regarding what he meant. But I also thought it was obvious and didn’t need an explanation.
DY: I meant it’s not a clear-cut issur in the Torah like being shomer negiah is. NO Gadol puts it in anywhere near the same category.
Sparkly – to answer your question: Girls don’t have to worry about zman Krias Shema. They do have to daven by zman tefila.
Ideally, you are supposed to daven by one third of the day. The way that is calculated is by figuring out how much time there is between Netz and shkiya (it’s different every day), you take that amount and divide it by 3. For example, let’s say that netz is at 6:00 am and shkiya is at 6:00 pm. That means there are 12 hours between netz and shkiya. 12 divided by 3 is 4. So you add 4 hours to netz, and you get 10:00 and that would be the time you are supposed to daven by, l’chatchila.
HOWEVER, if you didn’t daven by then, you can daven by chatzos and that is most girls do. You can find chatzos by looking in any Jewish calendar that gives zmanim. You can also find it online, although I don’t know which websites are accurate – I’m sure there are others here who might know. If your calendar doesn’t give the time for chatzos, but it does give Netz and shkiya, you can calculate what halfway between them is.
Technically, according to the Mishna Berurah, you must finish shemona esrei by chatzos. The “minhag” amongst many girls is that it’s okay to start shemona esrei by chatzos. I am not sure of the source for that and I actually would like to find it if anyone knows if and where it exists.
If it is getting late and you don’t have so much time to daven, this is what you are chayiv in (as per R’Elyashiv): all of brachos and birchos hashachar, parshas hatamid, baruch sheamar, ashrei, yishtabach, the first sentence of Shema and if possible the first paragraph, Emes v’yatziv until ga’al yisrael, and shemona esrei. And then at Mincha time, you are chayiv to say shemona esrei. On Shabbos and Yomtov, you also have to say Nishmas.
“lilmod ulelamaid – why cant it be? its just as bad.”
We don’t decide how bad something is based on our feelings. No Gadol says it’s just as bad as not being shomer negiah. Being shomer negiah may be “yeihareig v’al yaavor”. Any Gadol will tell you that if you have to choose between smoking and not being shomer negiah, it is a million times better to smoke.
It is possible that some of these bochurim are smoking rather than being “over” on serious aveiros that one is chayiv misa or kares for.
The Goq – so does this mean that you are officially OTD now?
Sparkly, because it doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that it’s assur to smoke.
And why are we looking to find fault in others?
LC – it wasn’t pure speculation. I asked the boy and his father (who was present) what the Rosh Yeshiva meant.
The kid was around 18-20 at the time. He stopped even before going to EY. It’s a lot cheaper than all the money other teenagers waste on movies, clothes, etc. (wonder how it compares to the money I spend on chocolate…)
Thanks DY for answering for me so concisely and to the point!
Sparkly – Are you asking for the source for the halacha?
Yehudayona: I saw in a sefer of Sheilas and Teshuvas of one of the contemporary Gedolim (either Rav Elyashiv zatzal or R’Shlomo Zalman zatzal or R’ Chaim Kavievsky, shlita, ybd”l) that someone asked him for the source of the “minhag” that women aren’t makpid to daven by zman tefila and just make sure to daven by chatzos. His response was: “I never heard of such a minhag.”
Lmaaseh, minhag haolam is that women are not makpid to daven by zman tefila, but there does not seem to be any real halachic reason for it.
I think it may have to do with the fact that women tend to be more meikel about davening in general since they have more things preventing them from davening combined with the fact that since there is an opinion in the Rishonim that women aren’t chayiv to daven, even though we don’t posken that way, there is what to be somech on b’eis hatzorech.
But there really does not seem to be a good reason for single girls to not be makpid on zman tefila.
Meno, actually in the center of the Universe, it was 6:22 and 45 seconds or 6:35 exactly (my calendar gives 2 different times). To be accurate, it was probably slightly later, because my calendar is not for Yerushalayim, and someone explained to me that in Yerushalayim, shkiya is a drop later because of the mountains, so I assume netz also works that way.
Which doesn’t necessarily make it tznius.
Sparkly – that doesn’t prove that it is. And it certainly doesn’t prove that there aren’t other opinions.
It certainly can’t be compared to not being shomer negiah. And it is certainly wrong to call a boy who smokes OTD or not frum which is what you wrote in your opening post.
Sparkly, I’m still not sure what you are saying exactly. In any case, my point was that one should not assume that something is okay just because guys don’t like it. If that’s not what you said, then I’m sorry for misunderstanding you.
I copied and pasted your words below. It very much sounds like you are saying that since guys don’t like headbands, they are tznius. If that is not what you meant, gread.
“i dont even know if guys think girls are cute in headbands so headbands are VERY MUCH tznius i think guys might not even like headbands which makes them even more tznius”
Sparkly, I was referring to two things. 1. My friend’s husband who is a Rosh Kollel and a Talmid Chacham told me that he smokes once a week because smoking once a week is not addictive and is mutter. He is not a poseik, but he is a Talmid Chacham and the way he said it, it sounded like it was something that he had looked into it and knew for certain that it was okay.
I am not saying that anyone should necessarily rely on this; my point was that we should be dan l’kaf zchus people who smoke and not assume that anyone who picks up a cigarette is a rasha.
2. A yeshiva bochur I know was told by his Rosh Yeshiva that it’s healthy for bochurim to smoke. I assume what he meant by that was that teenage boys need an outlet, and better they should smoke than do other things.
L’maaseh, for this boy, smoking was something he did for a particular tekufah, I think even during that tekufah, it was something he didn’t do on a regular basis – maybe just bein hazmanim, he never got addicted, and from the beginning his intention was to stop, certainly before he was shidduch-age. L’maaseh, he has already stopped by now even though he’s not in shidduchim yet. His mother even told me once that he expressed shock when he heard about someone who continued smoking after he was married; for him it was always clear that this was something he was doing as a “teenage outlet” (kind of his way of being able to be a little bit “rebellious” since he is a really good boy and this is the worst thing he would ever think of doing).
I’m not expressing my personal opinion on this. I don’t think there is any reason for me to have an opinion on this, and it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to have an opinion on it. My point was really that we should be “dan l’kaf zchus” particularly in Elul. This is something that each person in the situation has to make his own cheshbonos and figure out what the right thing for him to do is. He has to weigh the different factors in his life and figure out if for him right now it would better to smoke or not (for example, what would he he be doing instead if he didn’t smoke? It’s not like a clear-cut halacha such as negiah which is absolutely assur.
Personally, wine every day sounds like a lot to me! (but I don’t know what nutritionists say).
Doesn’t it depend on your age? I think the Rambam says something about its being healthy when you’re older (don’t know what age that would be.)
TRUEBT: Actually, the basic halachos are not so complicated.
Basic hilchos tznius according to all opinions:
1. Cover the top part of your legs until and including your knees.
2. Cover the top of your arms until your elbows.
3. When you are married, cover your hair.
4. Don’t wear pants without a skirt over it.
<<DELETED>> <<UNDELETED>> I see you did get through.
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“ps. Happy times are coming… cheer up! (suggested, not required)”
I am happy, but all the Motzi Shem ra really upsets me! I wish people would “chop” the damage they are causing!!! Would you be happy if you saw babies being murdered in front of your face????
Curiousity – good advice, but I’m wondering, “do the Gedolim tell people who to vote for in American elections?” For Eretz Yisrael they do, but I have never heard anyone quote any Gedolim regarding who to vote for in America. But, maybe no one has asked?
Benignuman: I didn’t actually look these sources up myself. I copied them straight out of Rav Ellinson’s seifer. Yes, I know that’s not the most scholarly way to do things, but I figured it would suffice for the Coffee Room. And I do tend to trust Rav Ellinson.
I have seen the Misha Berurah inside and that is really the only source on that topic that matters. As you yourself acknowledged, the Mishna Berurah says that women have a chiyuv to cover their legs until and including the knee (irrespective of minhag hamakom, unlike the bottom part of the leg below the knee).
I brought the Mishna Berurah to show that you were incorrect in stating that it is muttar for the knees and above to show in communities where this is customary.
LF – I responded to your post, but the moderators deleted it.
HGG – maskim. I would also add that even if guys don’t like something, that doesn’t necessarily make it tznius.