Lilmod Ulelamaid

what is victual reality?

Person1, agreed that you have to be careful about loshon hara about everyone. However, there is a particular problem with speaking badly about the Frum oilam to the Secular or not-Jewish oilam. Everything you write online is being said to the Secular or not-Jewish oilam. Most of the above statements that you quoted from me were said in response to generalizations that had been made putting down the Frum oilam or those who learn Torah.

I have noticed that often posters in the coffee room do not realize the connotations of what they are saying and how it can be heard by the general oilam. It’s all about the context and the way things are phrased. One problem that often comes up is that people lose sight of the context in these threads.

It’s not that everyone is perfect and it’s not that we shouldn’t be trying to work on ourselves. It’s a question of how, where, why, when and to whom things should be said.

I understand that you want to raise awareness of this issue, and you are right. But it has to be done the right way. The way you phrased things and the medium you chose were seriously problematic. And yes, you do have to be dan l’kaf zchus and assume that the newspapers mean well and it was an occasional slip-up and if someone says something to them, they will correct it. If you don’t feel that way, then you should certainly not say anything, since it certainly has no toeles.

And no, I do not think you have a right to post online that Lipa’s music is assur. There are halachos about when Lashon hara can be said l’toeles, and there are many, many conditions! One of the biggest stumbling blocks for loshon hara is the fact that people use “toeles” as an excuse too often! If you seriously think there was a toeles in what you wrote about Lipa or about the Frum newspapers, call the Shmiras Halashon hotline and ask them!! Loshon hara is a very serious issue, especially online, and you can’t say things like that without asking first!! And you have to make sure that you ask experts in the topic and that you tell them exactly what you wrote!!

“What I actually tried to convey in my previous messages was that you should be equally careful about Hotzaas Shem Ra about other groups and communities. Some frum people aren’t.’

The way you phrased it now was probably okay. The way it was phrased before was very different and it gave a very different message (although knowing you, I’m sure it was completely unintentional.)

I do think thought that it is kidai for you to go back and look at the examples you are talking about and see if it’s possible that they had a reason for writing what they did. It is POSSIBLE that it was written in the context of defending the Frum world against attacks by the not-Frum world. I’m not saying that was necessarily the case, but it is a definite possibility. If you think that was not the case, you should definitely write to them.

Why do I have a feeling of deja vu?

Health:

“LU -“I think the reason for not smoking has to do with hishtadlus”

So what?!?

Did you ever hear why you need a fence on your roof?!?”

Yes, because it’s a passuk mefurash in the Torah. Smoking is not.

Question: Have you ever done anything unhealthy? Personally, right now, I am doing something exceedingly unhealthy by staying up all night to help my mother. Do you think Hashem will punish me for this? (I forgot to mention all the caffeine that is needed in order to be able to do that…)

Note: there is a big difference between doing something unhealthy and jumping off of a roof. For someone reason, some posters seem to think that smoking a cigarette is comparable to jumping off of a roof. It is not.

Sparkly – how do you know that? Are you a boy? Did you ever ask a boy? (not that you should). Maybe you should take Apashutayid’s advice and google it. Or do an anonymous survey like I did in the CR and ask people what they think.

DY: “The reason to not smoke is because it will lead to not serving Hashem (i.e. obey Him) as well, while the reason to not watch movies is because that itself is disobeying Him.”

You always manage to phrase things so much better and more concisely than I do! I wrote a whole long post, and then realized that you really said the same thing in essence in shorter and simpler terms.

I think the reason for not smoking has to do with hishtadlus. Smoking doesn’t directly cause anyone’s death. It is possible to smoke and live a long life, and it is possible to not smoke and die young. According to Mesilas Yesharim and Chovos Halevavos (and other mussar sefarim), it’s not the hishtadlus that causes things to happen, it’s that we are supposed to have hishtadlus because Hashem said to (and if don’t listen to Hashem and do the proper hishtadlus, we might end up dying), but since we are only doing the hishtadlus because Hashem said to, it only makes sense to do hishtadlus that is according to Hashem’s Will. If we do hishtadlus that is not according to Hashem’s Will, we won’t gain anything from it.

We are not allowed to do hishtadlus that involves doing an aveira. So if the only way for someone to avoid smoking is by not being shomer negiah, it is better for them to smoke, and they gain NOTHING by not being shomer negiah instead of smoking.

Movies is slightly more complicated. While I would say as a general rule that movies are worse, there are many factors to take into account. You can be talking about a boy from a background where movies are normal and smoking is not, and he has a choice between watching a movie that was made for 3 year olds as opposed to becoming addicted to smoking. Or you can be talking about a boy from a background where all movies are considered treif, and the choice is between watching a clearly treif movie or smoking cigarettes temporarily and not enough to get addicted.

Sparkly – I did not say that!!! Please reread what I wrote! My whole point was that I see nice Frum girls wearing red nail polish, and they obviously don’t realize that it MAY be very pritzusdik and they clearly don’t realize that! I think that Frum girls are often very temimusdik in certain ways and therefore don’t realize the messages they are sending with the way they are dressed. My impression is that red nail polish MAY very likely fall in that category.

I just think it’s so sad when I see really sweet, good Frum girls dressed in ways that MAY give off messages that they don’t intend to and aren’t fully conscious of.

I have a post here from 2 hours ago – I guess the Moderators are still deliberating on it…. I guess they are hesitating for the same reason I thought twice about posting it.. oh well …it was a funny story, and I thought it would be okay. Maybe I should post it in hebrew instead… oh, right, I guess that wouldn’t help.

I charge for it, so I can’t really post the number. Not sure how I could get the number to you, but first let me know if this is something you’d be willing to pay for, because if not, it’s irrelevant.

Sparkly – it has already been explained to you many times why you can’t say that smoking is worse than watching movies. If you have a logical argument in response, please let us know. (I’m also not even sure why this comment is being directed at me, since I did not bring up movies.)

I give a teleconference shiur.

All I can tell you about red nail polish is the following: I once read a secular book on dating called “How to get married after 35.” The author had this whole really intense shita about how much “hishtadlus” you have to put in, and how everything you do should revolve around hishtadlus to get married.

She had a section on dress and appearance, and as you can imagine, she felt that was an important part of hishtadlus – making sure you look your best at all times, in every way. I specifically remember that she wrote that you should NOT wear red polish since you are looking for a guy who is looking for a wife not a zonah. This was coming from someone who was completely secular! When I read that, I realized that red nail polish clearly has connotations that some Frum girls don’t realize.

dbrim: “The effects of smoking are small cumulative effects, meaning that it’s not “this one cigarette” that results in addiction or that causes lung disease.

Smoking on occassion doesn’t guarantee an addiction but on the other hand it’s difficult to pinpoint, and very ideosyncratic, the exact timing of onset of addiction or lung disease. There are poskim who poskin assur; other poskim don’t (the “minhug” of Chosson cigarettes is still going strong). My point of contention is the OTD labeling.

Unfortunately, many of us have done aveiros, and sometimes even habitually: lashon hara, shmiras einayim, being lax in betching, brachos or hilchos boreir, not properly declaring taxes, and on and on – that doesn’t make us OTD – it means we have a weakness that needs tikun. Unfortunately there are sufficient real OTDers out there, that we don’t want to broaden the parameters of OTD and create self-fulfilling prophecies.”

Shkoyach for getting to the heart of the matter! It’s Elul now, and we should be working on being dan l’kaf zchus EVERYONE including those who are OTD, those who smoke, and those who watch movies!! Being dan l’kaf zchus is probably more important than any of these other things, and most likely to bring Moshiach!

Person1- it’s wonderful that you want to do something about stopping motzi shem ra, but I think your post is (inadvertant) motzi shem ra. You have to be EXTREMELY careful about what you post online. Everything that is written here can be and is read by the entire world, and it stays forever (or at least until the Moderators delete it if they do, but even then, it could have been copied and pasted m/w). That is why the Internet is so dangerous, and why we have to be so EXCEEDINGLY careful about what we write online.

I once heard a shiur on this topic (can’t remember from who, but it was someone well-known – it was some kind of teleconference Yom Iyun on Shmiras Halashon). The Rav was talking about how being a baal lashon hara is one of the worst aveiros; it is one of the few things you lose your cheilik in Olam Haba for permanently! Before Internet, it wasn’t so easy to be a baal loshon hara, but now it is very hard NOT to be.

Anything you write online can be read by the ENTIRE WORLD in seconds. It is particularly bad to speak about a group and really bad to speak about all of Am Yisrael. It is REALLY bad to speak about Gedolei Yisrael! It is also REALLY bad to speak about the Frum community (in particular) to goyim or secular Jews, and that is what people are doing when they speak badly about the Frum community online. By writing the above post, although it may have been unintentional, that IS what you just did.

I understand that you are really upset by the things you read and you felt that there was a toeles in this, but that is not the case. Mesira (I think that’s the halachic term for this) is a really big aveira and is not justified in this case. Also, if the problem really exists (which I am not mekabel), this is not the way to solve it. Write a letter yourself if you have seen such things. Telling others about it is just increasing motzi shem ra. I was NEVER told that I was allowed to spread any loshon hara I saw in the newspapers; I was simply told that I should write to the editors of the newspaper in question.

In terms of the specific issue that you are referring to, I actually don’t know what you are talking about. I don’t read Israeli newspapers and I haven’t read any newspaper in a while. If you really think there is a problem, you should definitely write to the editors, but you should think carefully first about whether or not there really is a problem, and you should be careful how you phrase it. You certainly should not be spreading motzi shem ra about the Frum world by announcing this issue (whether or not it really exists) to anyone but the perpetrators.

In general, Frum newspapers do try to be exceedingly careful about Loshon Hara issues, and they general do act according to Daas Torah. Of course, they make mistakes at time, as is the nature of newspapers, and that is why it is important to point it out to them if they did so. But this should be done from the perspective that you are assuming that it was an error, etc. Also, you should examine the context carefully – context makes all the difference, and often, something that seems like l”h really isn’t because of the context and vice versa.

Yasher koach on your efforts!