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MDG: “IMO, a man can be just as misled by his unrealistic expectations.”
I think it’s probably much more common for men than for women.
Joseph, I saw your posts in the other thread. I haven’t had a chance to comment yet (but trust me, I have a lot to say!) It seemed self-evident that this thread was meant to be connected, and you seemed to be under the assumption that most people get divorced because of the reasons mentioned in the OP. Many people reading your post would get the impression that many Frum people get divorced for such insane reasons.
Boruch Hashem, no one I know got divorced for such crazy reasons, and the implication (since you initially quoted this in the thread about divorce) was that you think that most or many people (including Lenny’s wife) get divorced or want to get divorced for such reasons.
If that wasn’t your point, then I’m not sure what your point was. Are you just trying to say that romance is a goyish concept? Why did you suddenly think that was an important concept to bring up? Anyhow, it’s not 100% true, but why are we talking about this??
A Yeshivish friend of mine, while on a date with a YU guy, innocently made a reference to JB, and the guy was very insulted. She clearly had no idea there was anything offensive about the term or she obviously would not have used it in that setting. She was mortified when she realized that he was offended and that he considered it derogatory.
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Joseph, what exactly is the point of this thread?
The Jewish attitude is that marriage is about having a relationship with someone. When Frum women want to get divorced, it is usually because they don’t have a relationship, and their husbands don’t want to have a relationship, and that is not a Jewish marriage. This can also work the other way, but it is probably more common this way, and in any case, that is the topic under discussion.
If a husband sees that his wife is upset by the way he treats her, the Jewish way is to discuss it with her, not to tell her that he has a right to treat her however he wants and she has to stay married to him.
Joseph – the people who call him JB.
“Ministry of Religous Affairs: Joseph.”
Joe won’t agree to be part of the government – he’s too much of a Brisker.
Joseph, thank you so much! I am so happy to hear a limud zchus on those people who do it.
Thanks for the nomination, Person1! I’d much rather be the Minister of Education than the First Lady. All being a First Lady means is that you “get” to be married to the President, and most presidents do not exactly have the qualities I am looking for in a husband – quite the opposite actually!!
Now we have to figure out a Ministry for you.
Don’t worry, I just logged into my computer and changed it! He will know longer be called that anymore!
“Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Meno (because he’ll be able to make fun of them without them knowing it)” – lol, very true.
I like the Israeli one much better because I also know more about it. Of course, it helps that you don’t have to be too brilliant to know what things mean from their names (Religious Affairs, Education, etc.)
Abba_S, it was actually 20+ years, not 11. In other words, it was almost their entire marriage.
More importantly, as I wrote in a previous post, we have to be very careful about writing negative things about the other people involved. Even though we don’t know them, Lenny does, so it is Motzi Shem Ra to say anything bad about them. It also will not do anything to improve his marriage.
Furthermore, we don’t really know anything about them, and they are not here to present their side, so it really is not right to assume anything bad about them. I also think your conclusions about both the wife and Rabbi are baseless. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that the wife’s purpose is to torment her husband. For 20 years, she was complaining to her Rabbi about how controlling and abusive her husband is, and he didn’t know anything about it!!! She obviously is not out to torment him!! If she wanted to torment him, she would have been complaining to him, not to the Rabbi!!! She clearly was too scared to say anything to him, or else, she tried and was not heard.
The fact that she has not yet petitioned for a divorce does not mean anything. There can be many reasons for that. Many women feel that it is wrong to get divorced (if you don’t believe that anyone feels that way, just read Joseph’s posts) and they feel that it is their obligation to try to make things work no matter how miserable they are. Maybe she really thought she could find a way to make things work. Maybe she thought that the Beis Din would not grant her a divorce if her husband doesn’t want one (again, read Joseph’s posts).
In terms of the Rabbi, it is also not fair to write what you did. We don’t really know anything about what he has done or tried to do. We only have Lenny’s words and he did not go into too many details, so we don’t have much information to go on, and it is really impossible for us to know what the Rabbi did and why. I think that the Rabbi is a wise man who is going about things the way he is for a very good reason. He clearly has accomplished something, because Lenny is proceeding to go to a Beis Din which is what the Rabbi wanted.
The first two sentences of your last paragraph are well-said! I definitely agree!
What is the source for Rav Elyashiv stating that the Knesset is a bais minus? Thanks.
Joseph, nothing you wrote is a stira to anything I wrote, so I’m not sure what your point is.
This is a different topic, and it doesn’t belong in your halacha thread.
Sparkly – I think Meno is asking you what your comment was said in response to. I was wondering the same thing myself.
There was a conversation going on about Johnny Applesaid’s friend. Meno and I asked her how her friend is and if any of the CR advice helped. Then all of a sudden, you made a comment about how you are not OTD even though it sounds like it. That comment seems to have no connection to anything that was being said. So we are wondering why you made it.
The State of Israel is not a country. Eretz Yisrael is a country and it is a Jewish country.
I don’t recognize the State either, but according to most Gedolim, it is better to have Frum people in the government.
“I think having a Jewish president would be very bad for the Jews”
So let’s vote for positions in the Knesset instead. Those are more interesting anyhow. Who wants to be the President of a goyish country anyhow?
Who should be the Minister of Religious Affairs? And who should get the Education ministry? Prime Minister? President?
Meno, that’s so interesting that that is what you took out of the video. I actually had thought the opposite – I thought that it was making fun of the idea that women stereotypically just want their husbands to listen to them and not to try to solve things by showing a scenario where a practical solution would have made a lot more sense than just listening for hours on end. That is why I didn’t quite get why you wanted him to watch it. Now I understand better. The problem is that I am not sure which message he will get from it.
Hashkafa is not necessarily a stira to Emes, unless the hashkafa did not come from the Torah in the first place, which is obviously not the case with Gedolim.
Joseph, who would you vote for? (I’m assuming all women are out).
Meno, because he has a good understanding of people, and he knows how to respond to people with humor, sensitivity and intelligence. He also refrains from personal attacks or getting emotional about things except when he thinks it’s really called for.
Meno, that is so cool that your wife is a marriage therapist! That is a big zchus. I would have thought that you were a therapist, but you mentioned that you are an engineer.
Lenny, I thought that I made it clear that I have no way of knowing. I was simply trying to say that it may be a possibility, and one that it may be kidai to be prepared for.
I hope that I didn’t come across as too harsh – I was trying very hard not to, but when I had to respond to other posters, I ended up having to come across stronger than I had wanted to.
There is another point that I was thinking about as I read your last post. If there are things that your wife is upset about, whether or not you think that her complaints are legitimate, it is kidai to listen to her and show her that you respect her feelings and that you would like to try to address them if you can.
Whether or not you consider her complaints to be legitimate is irrelevant – the fact is that she feels this way, and a feeling can’t be illegitimate. Having a relationship with someone means listening to her feelings and complaint and showing her that you care and that you respect her feelings. I think I saw the video that Meno mentioned on Aish.com (probably a very abridged version) and I think that was the point of it (althought when I watched it, I had thought it was just meant to be humorous). It probably is kidai for you to watch it. Meno is a very smart man, and I would take his advice seriously.
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Avi K – perfect!!! Great ending to the threat, and great way to go into Yom Kippur & to start the new year!
Abba_S, He said that she has been complaining to their Rabbi for over 20 years that he is controlling and abusive. He also said that she hates him. It is quite clear that she has been miserable for a very long time. Women generally take many years to actually get divorced even if they are miserable. It is a very difficult decision to make, and a woman’s natural tendency is to feel that she should try to make things work and not get divorced too quickly even if she is miserable.
“When they got married they were love birds” Who says??!! Many (if not most) people who get divorced were miserable from the beginning.
I agree with you that there does seem to be a communication problem here, although there is no way for us to know who is to “blame” for that (I don’t mean blame literally – no one chooses to have a hard time with communication and I think that it is a problem that everyone has to some extent). The question is if the communication problem can be resolved at this point, and also if that is the only issue. Hopefully those are questions that the marriage therapist will be able to answer.
MA – it probably has to do with the “basically” part of the “basically exactly what Lilmod wrote”. I have found that at times the moderators won’t post something I write, but then when I rewrite it, making a slight change in the way it’s phrased, they will post it, even though it has the same meaning as the first attempt.
The difference usually has to do with connotation. Sometimes something can be written in a way that gives off a negative connotation that may not even be what the poster intended at all, but will affect the way the words are heard and understood by the listeners/readers.
I think that sometimes when people get upset by your posts, there may not have necessarily been anything so wrong with what you meant by your posts, but the problem may have had to do with the way they were phrased.
His post was not remotely similar to yours.
I was so happy that this thread had gotten pushed to the back during Aseres Yimei Teshuva… I haven’t really read the thread, and it’s possible that there is nothing mamash assur here, and maybe it is just an important and necessary philosophical discussion clarifying the Torah perspective on zionism without criticizing any Gedolim or putting down any people or groups on a personal level (and maybe one that I would want to join at another time)… but, I wonder if Aseres Y’mei Teshuva is the best time for such a discussion that inevitably brings up chesronos within groups within Am Yisrael?? Just a thought..
JA – has there been any improvement? Did any of the advice here help? Did you try the hotline I mentioned?
“But it’s not up to us to judge, nor do we know the true workings of HKB”H.”
Who was judging anyone? I was simply pointing out that not everyone has a cheilik in Olam Haba, and it is not a good idea to feel like you can do whatever you want and you don’t have to worry because everyone has a cheilik in Olam Haba. If you are trying your best, then you can have bitachon that everything will be okay. But you can’t just sit back and do nothing!
Thanks Joseph.
“the rest of us poor shmos just sit around waiting. but in the end, Hashem will forgive us all and bring a blessed good year to everybody. kol yisroel yesh lohem olam haboh letova ulebrocho.”
Hashem won’t forgive you if all you are doing is sitting around waiting!!! You have to put a lot of effort into doing Teshuva! Once you have given it your all, only then can you say that you have bitachon that Hashem will forgive you.
And it VERY important to remember that Hashem will not forgive you unless you ask mechila from those you have hurt.
And not everyone has a cheilik in Olam Haba. There is a whole list of things that can cause someone to lose his cheilik.
Joseph, I agree that it is better to remain married if possible. However, it is only better to remain married if you actually have a marriage. If two people happen to be living in the same house and don’t have a Get, that doesn’t mean they have a marriage. There is no point in pretending to be married if you are not really married. If your differences can be worked out so that you actually have a marriage, then that is the best option. But if they can’t, they are supposed to get divorced. The idea that divorce is wrong is a goyish idea, not a Jewish idea. According to the Torah, you are supposed to get divorced if you don’t have a good marriage. There was a Tanna or Amora (I forgot who, but I’m sure you know who I’m talking about) who got divorced because he didn’t like the way his wife treated him.
As the Bostoner Rebbetzin a”h (whose parents got divorced when she was a kid) used to say, “Better 4 happy people than 2 miserable people.”
It is simply not true that in the Jewish world, irreconcilable differences are not considered a reason to get divorced. People get divorced because of irreconcilable differences all of the time. It is not a Torah hashkafa for people to be miserable. If a marriage is not working out, you are supposed to get divorced. If it can be worked out, great, but if not, you are supposed to get divorced.
And it is certainly not Torah hashkafa for a couple to be divorced for several years without having a get. And that is definitely not good for the kids.
And I don’t agree that in the majority of cases, people regret having gotten divorced. Most divorced people I know (including my mother) are very happy that they got divorced. Many of them go on to get remarried and build beautiful homes. Many don’t get remarried and are happier being unmarried than being in a bad marriage.
Deciding to get divorced is a very difficult decision to make, especially for women and especially for women with kids. It is not a decision that people make lightly. Most people (at least until recently) only get divorced after thinking about it and trying to make things work for many years. If a woman still wants to get divorced after 20 years (and several kids) of trying to make things work, there is a good reason for it, and it is not something to take lightly. If someone has felt for 20 years that her husband is controlling and abusive and her husband was not even aware of this, that is a serious problem.
You wrote that in the majority of cases, divorce is worse than remaining in a not-great marriage. I am not sure what you mean by a not-great marriage. Most people don’t get divorced because their marriage is not great. If they did, you would probably be right. But most people who get divorced do so because their marriage is TERRIBLE. I am not referring to people who get divorced after a year because they had a terrible Shana Rishona and they didn’t realize that was normal and that there are ways to work things out. It is possible that in the younger generation, people are getting divorced too quickly and are not trying harder to work things out, or were never given the tools to work things out. I don’t know if that is a common scenario or not, but it is not what I am talking about. I am talking about people my age and older who were married for many years and got divorced because they really did not have a marriage, and they did try to work things out for many years, but it was an impossible situation.
Perhaps you wrote what you did because you are referring to those people who do get divorced too quickly and could have worked things out, or people who got divorced because their marriage was not-great (but it was okay). But that does not sound like that is the situation here at all. We are talking about someone who has been miserable for 20 years and hates her husband and feels he is controlling and abusive!! What kind of marriage is that, and what is the point in pretending that it is a marriage? And why should this poor lady continue living in Gehenom? Of course, if any of those facts can be changed with the help of a good marriage therapist, that is great. But if they can’t be, it is definitely time to move on.
Sparkly, I don’t know for sure that Pringles is a girl, but that was my impression. In any case, from this thread, we know that we are talking about someone who is a teenager, works at least 8 hours a day, lives somewhere where that is normal, and has younger siblings. So if none of those fits the guy you are talking about, he/she can’t be him. In any case, I really don’t think it’s him, and I don’t think you have to worry about that.
Likewise! Gmar Chasima Tova to everyone. May this be our last Yom Kippur in Golus!
“He has been blocked, and will not be offering any apologies.”
I thought she was joking?! And isn’t she a she?
He was blocked for multiple user names, most coming across as male.
Sparkly – I thought you knew the guy? Wouldn’t you be able to tell if they sounded the same? I think Pringles is a girl, anyhow.
Sparkly, I’m really happy for you that this girl was able to help you! That’s fantastic! But I still think that it is important for you to find a therapist to speak to as well. In my opinion, this is a serious issue and not one that can be resolved through one conversation with someone. You know how Gofish told you that growth is a process? She was referring to spiritual growth, but it is true for emotional growth as well – in fact, even more so. In general, I think that therapy is good idea for most people, especially at your stage of life. I wish that I had had the opportunity to go for therapy at your age.
Do the Mods change people’s usernames? Why would they do that? Your name sounds the same, Meno.
Lenny, if I misunderstood something, I apologize, and I hope you are moichel me. I was just writing according to my understanding of the situation and I hope you aren’t offended by anything I wrote. I realize that I may not have understood the situation correctly, and if that is the case, please disregard my comments.
Happygirlygirl – I think a bishow can be considered a type of date. It’s not that different from a sit-in date. I actually have done a few of those.
Sparkly – please keep me updated. Let me know if you call Relief and they are able to help.
Joseph: “Rabbosai, zats mich mochel.”
Translation?
Sparkly – please let me know that you are moichel me! Thanks!
And I would like to wish you a Gmar Chasima Tova and a really wonderful year! You should have clarity with all of your decisions, find a great therapist and a way to pay for her/him, and make the best decisions regarding seminary and your life plans! You should have Simchas Hachaim, meaning in life, wonderful friends who are good for you emotionally and spiritually, and B’ezras Hashem find the right guy at the right time!!!!
bjjgirl1- I am very offended by your post! By showing offense at RebYidd’s post, you are implying that there is something wrong with being short! I am 5″2′ and proud! Additionally, I don’t think that a person’s worth should be measured by her income or by her profession.I take great offense at that as well!
I think that you should ask mechila from every short female as well as everyone who earns less money than you do as well as everyone who is not a speech therapist.
He has been blocked, and will not be offering any apologies.
Lenny, I am very glad for you that you seem to have a found a direction to go in to try to resolve the matter. I definitely think that both going to a Beis Din and trying to get marriage therapy are excellent ideas, and I am very glad for you that you are doing both.
However, there is something that is very much bothering me about this situation as I understand it (and it is entirely possible that I misunderstood something). The way I understand things is that your wife has been miserable for the past 20 years. She hates you and considers you to be controlling and abusive. Whether or not you feel you are controlling and abusive, she clearly does, she is miserable, and she hates you. So why do you want to stay in this marriage? And why are you trying to force someone to stay in a marriage if she is miserable? And if that is what you are trying to do, doesn’t that seem controlling to you?
I am definitely in favor of marriage therapy. I definitely think that a couple should not get divorced until they have tried marriage therapy (in most cases, at least), and I am glad to hear you are going that route. Hopefully, you will find a good therapist who is able to hear and understand both sides and can figure out if your marriage is salvageable or not and advise you accordingly.
What makes me nervous is the fact that over the course of the past few years I have known several cases in which the couple separated but the get dragged on for years (in two of these cases, it hasn’t happened yet!) Off-hand, I can think of three cases like that (and there may have been more that I forgot about). I don’t know the details in any of these cases, but I do know that in at least two of these cases, the wife wanted the divorce and the husband didn’t. I am fairly certain that is the case in the third situation as well.
When I heard about these situations, I was shocked! Again, I don’t know the details, but something seems very wrong to me about a couple being separated for several years without a Get, especially if one side definitely wants the Get and the other is holding out.
I don’t know the details in these situations, and I guess it’s really not my place to judge. But I do think that this is a situation one should really try to avoid being in, and I hope that you don’t end up in such a situation. Hopefully, the Rabbanim and therapists you deal with will be able to guide you appropriately, and you will reach a resolution one way or the other, and hopefully it won’t take several years.
Hatzlacha and Gmar Chasima Tova!
Pringles, how are you doing? I thought about you a lot on Rosh Hashana. Did you follow any of the ideas anyone gave here? Has the situation changed at all? I hope you had a good Yomtov and that you have a Gmar Chasima Tova!
Please let us know how you are doing.
I have spoken to two doctors about the Vitamin D deficiency issue and they both told me that it is a very controversial issue in the medical field. One of them was a doctor (my doctor at the time) who herself was VERY into this idea that Frum people (men as well as women, since Frum men also tend to cover themselves pretty thoroughly) are lacking Vitamin D, but she herself acknowledged that it was a controversial position and that most of her colleagues disagree with her.
The other doctor I spoke to explained the reason why a lot of people nowadays are getting blood tests results that claim they are deficient in Vitamin D. He said that it’s because they have increased the amount that they decided that people need, and there was not necessarily a good reason for this. When I asked him about this idea that Frum people don’t get enough Vitamin D, he also thought that was ridiculous, and he said that you can get enough Vitamin D just by standing at the busstop for 15 minutes on your way to Kollel.
The interesting thing is that the first doctor is herself Frum and the second one isn’t. I know this isn’t a complete proof, but I personally find it hard to believe that Hashem would create a world in which it is necessary to violate Halacha in order to get the Vitamin D we need. That is why I am skeptical about the whole thing.
732-905-1605.
How was your Rosh Hashana, Sparkly? I thought about you a lot, and I had you in mind when I davened.