Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Ivdu – he said he’s looking for something more right wing. There may be many good boys there, but that doesn’t seem to be the issue – the issue is he wants something more to the right of YU.
ZD: “Some here think its a good idea to go to Seforim and pick out some of the things that were said , they are actually trolling and not only are they not giving kavod to the Rav, they are actually disrepcting him. Picking out statements that is known not to be so popular will lead to people to disraged the Gedolim.
the Shaila or statement is usually given in a context and out of context it will seem weird, stupid or worse and people will not respect the gadol for it”
Maskim.
Little Froggie – I am most impressed! I can only hope to someday reach your madreigah.
Gofish – I appreciate your post. It does make me sad though that you are judging the Chareidi world by Joseph (and your father). They do not represent the Chareidi world. I also went through a period of time when I was very anti-Chareidi because I had the wrong impression of what being Chareidi means due to some people I knew who were misrepresenting the Chareidi world. I eventually realized that these people were not really representative of what Chareidi hashkafa is all about, and that there are many other really fine people who are people whom I would want to emulate and who do represent Chareidi hashkafa for real.
Of course, it is important to find a community where you feel comfortable, and only you can figure out what that is, but I hope that you can learn to have an appreciation for Chareidi hashkafa and the really wonderful people who are true representatives of Chareidi hashkafa.
And by the way, from the little I know of Rav Avigdor Miller, I think that he is being very misrepresented here and I think that it is Motzi Shem Ra for anyone to be mekabel that he said the things that he is being quoted as saying. Even if the words are technically accurate quotes, when something is taken out of context and used to imply that the quotee meant something he didn’t mean, that is a form of misquoting someone and quite possibly motzi shem ra (both for the one doing the quoting and the one believing it). So I think we should try to not be “mekabel” that Rav Avigdor Miller would have said such a thing in this context.
Sparkly – that’s good. I davened for you on Yom Kippur. I hope that you have a really good sweet near year!
147 – I would kind of assume that thebabbler is a female since she asked about plays and since she thanked me for telling her about the women’s choir.
ZD- generally speaking when Gedolim disagree with each other, you still are not supposed to say that you disagree with one of them. You are not great enough to disagree with a Gadol. Since there is a machlokes and you can’t follow both, you follow one or the other, but not because you are great enough to say that one is wrong.
However, the above issue might be a different type of issue, and I’m not sure if this applies. But I certainly can disagree with Rav Miller on this issue. (although I would prefer to be dan l’kaf zchus and assume that he might be being taken out of context, and there might not be a real disagreement here.)
Why more so now Sparkly? Did something else happen?
I just did a search of the words, “percentage of chareidim in Jerusalem” and I came up with an article in the JP which said:
“Among the Jews residing in the city, 32% defined themselves as ultra-Orthodox, 17% as religious, 13% as traditional- religious, 15% are traditional but not very religious and 21% defined themselves as secular.”
Apparently there are almost twice as many Chareidim in Yerushalayim as Dati-Leumi.
Also, according to an article in YWN http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/457459/78-percent-of-jerusalems-students-are-chareidi-or-arab.html
there are a lot more Chareidi students than Dati Leumi students in Yerushalayim. Aside from the Chareidi population, you also have to take into account all of the Chareidi Yeshiva Bochurim who come from all parts of the Country and from Chutz L’Aretz.
It is time for Truth – that doesn’t mean their Teshuva wasn’t accepted. We can do Teshuva for anything.
?????,
?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????
?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????,
??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????…
????? ????? ????? ????
???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????…
??? ?? ??? ????
Thanks to Avi K. for posting this on another thread! Hopefully, that’s something we will all be able to attain this Yom Kippur!
benignuman, you’re entitled to your opinion on divorce. The problem is when people make it seem like it’s the only possible opinion and put down people who do feel that divorce is necessary. In this case, this thread seems to be an extension of another thread having to do with a woman who is miserable and feels that her husband has been controlling and abusive to her for over 20 years. In that thread, I had written that if they go for marriage counseling AND it is not successful and the therapists and Rabbanim involved recommend a divorce and the wife wants a divorce, I don’t think it’s right for the husband to refuse to grant a Get.
These quotes from Rav Avigdor Miller seem to have been brought here in order to encourage the husband to refuse to grant his wife a Get even in the above circumstances, and I think that is wrong! And I have a feeling that Rav Avigdor Miller would agree as well. (Remember, I was only talking about after they try working things out IF they are unsuccessful).
“I don’t think you (or I) can say what level of gadlus Rabbi Avigdor Miller achieved. It is unwise to simply declare that he was not in the same category as Rav Moshe Feinstein.”
I disagree. I think it is very important to differentiate. I can freely disagree with Rav Avigdor Miller. I can not disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein. At least not for the most part. The truth is that it is POSSIBLE that there are certain types of things that I would be able to disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein about, but I would have to be much more careful about thinking that I could disagree with Rav Moshe and it would only be in certain types of areas if at all, and even in those areas, I would have to be very careful.
I think that one of the reasons there is such a lack of appreciation for Daas Torah nowadays is the fact that people don’t distinguish between the Gedolei Hador and Talmidei Chachamim.
Sparkly, I will bli neder have you in mind in my tefilos on Yom Kippur.
Best wishes for a Gmar Chasima Tova and I really hope that things get better.
Meno, I guess I was wrong after all…you gotta know your customers.
ZD – I know you weren’t! I was just concerned that it might have sounded like I was, so I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t.
takahmamash- thanks! That was really thoughtful of you!
Personally, I am always impressed by the numbers of Chilonim at the Kosel, and the fact that there are so many types of Jews there.
Joseph – maybe some of them are really Dati Leumi people who are makpid to wear hats for davening.
Joseph, why does it sound like you are trying to start an argument about who is better? That’s not so appropriate at any time and particularly not on Erev Yom Kippur.
Gofish – you know you have a really similar name to Golfer, and I always mix you up.!It took me a while to realize that you are two different people. Both your names start with a “G” and have 6 letters and two syllables. The second letter is O, and the second syllable starts with an F and then has a vowel and then a consonant sound. It’s confusing to me, because I can’t keep track of what I know about each of you. I think you may also have similar typses of posts, but I’m not sure.
ZD – I wasn’t chasvishalom in any way trying to put down the shidduch system. It is just that for me personally at the moment it is not a good system. This mainly has to do with specific aspects of my life that make it impractical for me. Also, I am not in my 20’s, so that makes things very different. At my age, Gedolim are generally in favor of singles’ events even though I imagine they don’t consider them the best method (in general) for young singles who are just starting to date.
I do go to singles’ events occasionally, but they do not have very many of them in the communities in which I’ve been living for the past several years. The Yeshivish world has only started doing these things recently. I definitely see the drawbacks to singles’ events, but I think that they are a good option for me right now personally. I also wish that people would host single guys and girls at Shabbos meals at the same time. It’s possible that it’s not appropriate for young singles, but people should definitely consider it for older singles. I am not blaming anyone; I think that it just doesn’t occur to people that it might be a good idea.
I also wish that the oilam could come up with some other option other than any of the above mentioned.
Hey Gofish, I didn’t know you live in the Holy Land too! Cool! Wonder if I know you…I can’t think of any fish offhand, so I guess not.
CrookedHillary – lol.
Joseph – I thought the wife is supposed to be subservient to her husband…
Sparkly – can you just call a therapist already???
Abba_S – what makes you think I’m in my 20’s and married?
You totally misunderstood my comment about dating – it has nothing to do with the guys I go out with or how I relate to them. It just has to do with the fact that the whole shidduch system is not a good system for me right now for many reasons, so I have to come up with something different.
Person1 – thanks for sticking up for me!
Thanks for the definition, Golfer! So, Joseph, why exactly are you asking about them? And why should anyone have an opinion of them, other than tryin g to view all Jews favorably as we are commanded to?
What time?
You think you are the only one with a Kipa Seruga and glasses? Any other means of id?
Please daven for all of us!!! Wish I had time to go!!!
No one has to agree with Rav Avigdor Miller about anything, but please let’s not speak about him disrespectfully. Also, it is assur to quote people negatively, and even if it would be l’toeles, it has to be completely accurate and the context must be clear. (I’m referring to the statement about threatening people’s families, which if he said it all, was clearly in a certain context and there are clearly details left out here.)
Gofish, I have been wanting to watch, but haven’t had a chance yet – sorry. Bli neder, I will let you know when I do.
Sparkly – it’s not a movie – it’s a speech.
y1234 – you may be right, but what confused me (and bothered me) was that you wrote yeshiva world. I had no idea you meant YWN. I thought you meant the Yeshivish oilam, and I was bothered by the fact that someone is speaking Loshon Hara about an entire group in Am Yisrael online!!!
If you meant YWN, you are right for pointing it out to them – however, I don’t know if this is the right place. Do they read these posts? Is there a way you can right something in the comment section of the article? That would probably be more appropriate (and less halachically problematic) than writing it here.
Also, as I have mentioned before, there was a Tanna or an Amora who got divorced. And there have been several chashuve people in our generation who are divorced. I can think of two Rosh Yeshivas offhand.
Joseph – it was many years ago, so I no longer remember. I assume that I couldn’t daven after the date because it was almost shkiya. I assume that I didn’t daven beforehand either because it was too early when I left my house or because I didn’t have time.
In any case, davening Mincha on a date is not a big deal – it takes 5 minutes if you’re speed davening – that’s not what bothered him, it was the idea that I was davening Mincha altogether.
Actually, he hadn’t davened Mincha yet himself, so we had to end the date so he could go to shul. In fact, when I told him that I had to daven Mincha, he thought at first that I was reminding him to daven Mincha, since it hadn’t occurred to him that girls daven Minhcha.
One more point that is really important that I already kind of mentioned. The bottom line is that divorces that are initiated by the wife can more or less be divided into two categories: those in which the marriage could have been saved and those in which it couldn’t. (I realize that’s a bit simplistic). Rav Avigdor Miller is talking about those that could have been saved. I think that any intelligent person would realize that there are marriages that fall in one category and marriages that fall in another.
There are two points of contention here: 1. What percentage fall in each category? 2. What defines a marriage as not working and requiring a divorce?
In terms of question 1, I don’t know if anyone has the answer and I don’t know if it would be possible to get an answer. It also might depend on the year, the country, the ages of the couple, and the specific group within the Orthodox community. In any case, it is irrelevant, since all that matters is the specific couple in question.
2. Are you talking about marriages that are not-Great or marriages that are terrible? I have been talking about marriages that are terrible. It is possible that Rav Avigdor Miller was talking about marriages that are okay, but not great.
The point is that there may not even be a disagreement or at least not a substantial one between Rav Avigdor Miller and myself. It is hard to know since one would have to know the exact situations that he was talking about, and even if one is familiar with the situation, there are many details that one may not be aware of.
The bottom line is that one has to be EXCEEEDINGLY careful when quoting something like this, since even if Rav A. Miller was right, what he said might not be relevant to the situation at hand. In this case, these posts seem to have been in response to the other thread, and as I wrote there, they are irrelevant to that situation.
Joe, so what does it mean, and why are you asking how we relate to them?
Joseph, I just responded to your posts on the other thread (although it was long, so the moderation will probably take a while.)
As I pointed out above,I don’t need to find other quotes from Gedolim in order to disagree with Rav Avigdor Miller – I was just trying to state my disagreement in a respectful way. The fact that Rav Avigdor Miller said something does not mean that anyone has to accept it, which is why it bothers me the way you are quoting him, as though everyone has to accept him. I also don’t think that what he is saying has to contradict what I have said, as I already pointed out.
I did already mention in another thread that the Bostoner Rebbetzin was in favor of divorce. It is also obvious that there are many Rabbanim in favor of divorce since there is a concept of “me’ah rabbanim” that has been used on many occasions (and each time obviously required 100 Rabbanim). There is also a concept of forcing a guy to give his wife a divorce. Furthermore, there are a lot of Frum divorced people in the world, so obviously there were Rabbanim who allowed them to get divorced.
there’s a women’s choir.
Joseph, when I read your posts, my first thought was to respond that I either don’t agree with Rav Avigdor Miller or that his comments may be taken out of context and might not mean what they sound like. But, I am not even going to take the route, because there is a more important issue here. The main issue is that these comments are simply out of place (and possibly dangerous) in this thread.
I don’t think that too many people have been paying attention to the details of this situation, but pay attention to what is going on here: There is a wife who is really upset with the way her husband has been treating her for the past 20-25 years (probably since they were married). She feels that he is controlling and abusive. From his own words, it is clear that he doesn’t care how she feels, has no interest in listening to her complaints and certainly has no interest in trying to do what he can to make her happier.
He has no interest in trying to make any changes or find out what he can do differently. All he wants to do is to force her to stay married to him even though she is miserable (another proof that he doesn’t care about her feelings). And added to that, he thinks she should be happy because he supports her well. And all this is according to his own words!! We haven’t even heard her version yet!! Imagine what she would probably say if she could!!!
It is possible that he is not interesting in relating to her feelings. It is also possible that he is incapable of doing so. I don’t know which it is. But from his posts, it is clear that it is one or the other. It is clear that he does not want to change. It is possible that a marriage therapist will be able to help him. But it seems to me that even a marriage therapist will not be able to help him until he decides that he is willing to make a change (as Meno basically said). Maybe a marriage therapist will be able to help him do that. Maybe not. And maybe, it is not POSSIBLE for him to do that.
If after going to a marriage therapist and speaking to Rabbanim, the therapist and Rabbanim decide that this marriage can not work and he should give his wife a get, he MUST do so, and it is ridiculous for anyone to encourage him to hold his wife prisoner.
Meanwhile, what he needs to be doing now is realizing that his marriage does not stand a chance until he works on listening to his wife and trying to empathize with her. Telling him that his wife should not want to divorce him is plain WRONG. Telling him that women should just accept their marriages and their husbands is WRONG!!! This is not what he needs to hear and will only exacerbate the situation. It will encourage him to continue telling his wife that he doesn’t need to do anything differently and she should just be happy. If his wife is unhappy, it is his chiyuv to try to make her happy!! This is the basic chiyuv of a husband – to make his wife happy!!!
Forget about divorce and whether or not his wife is right for wanting a divorce. We are talking to Lenny – he needs to be reminded that it is his chiyuv to make his wife happy. If his wife is unhappy, he has no right to tell her that she should be happy. He has to figure out why she is unhappy and how he can help her.
Iacisrmma, thank you.
Joseph, why should I relate to them? What shaychus do they have to my life?
Sparkly – are you saying that one should get married for the guy or shouldn’t?
Maybe I should rephrase my last sentence – It is possible that there are other shitas.
Person1 & lesschumras – +1!
Joseph, I imagine that you would want to do everything you can to get people to respect Daas Torah. I’m sure you realize that one of the biggest problems with our generation is a lack of respect for Daas Torah, and that this is one of the areas that needs the greatest tikkun.
From things that you’ve written, I KNOW that this is a very important concept to you and one that you wish people would realize. So I don’t think you realize that when you post things like this, it decreases people’s respect for Daas Torah.
First of all, you don’t differentiate between Gedolim. The way you quote Rav Avigdor Miller, you make it sound like one must relate to his words the same way they relate to Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal or Rav Shach Zatsal or even the Chofetz Chaim Zatsal. Rav Avigdor Miller was a tremendous Talmid Chacham but he does not belong in the same category as Rav Moshe Feinstein zts”l or the Chofetz Chaim zts”l, and no one is required to accept his opinions on divorce. When you quote him the way that you do, you make it sound like the fact that he said something makes it Daas Torah and something that everyone has to accept the way they have to accept things that the Chofetz Chaim said. If they can’t accept what Rav Avigdor Miller said, they will start to have doubts in the whole concept of Daas Torah and feel like they can debase the Gedolim.
In addition to the fact that Rav Avigdor Miller was not the Chafetz Chaim or Rav Shach, he did not necessarily mean to imply everything that you are attributing to him by quoting him the way you are. He did not say that most divorces are caused by incorrect conceptions of romance as you said that he did. Saying that most divorces could have been prevented is not the same as saying they were caused by wrong ideas of romance.
Furthermore, the statement that most divorces could have been prevented is a vague statement. All it means is that theoretically it could have been prevented if some things had been done differently at some point. This could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if the husband were willing to do something differently, but since he is not, the wife has no choice but to get divorced. It could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if the wife had not been exposed to certain things as a teenager, but now that she was, it is unavoidable. It could mean that the divorce could have been prevented if something had been done differently in Shana Rishona, but since it wasn’t, it is now unavoidable.
In any case, each divorce is its own situation, so it is not necessarily relevant what happened in another situation or in most situations. It is also possible that Rav Avigdor Miller dealt with certain types of situations. It is also possible that he is wrong.
Person1 – reminds me of the time I told the guy I had to daven Mincha. He was shocked, and asked me when I took upon myself to daven Mincha. He seemed to think there was something feminist about a girl davening Mincha, and he didn’t seem to believe me that it’s a chiyuv according to halacha.
My friend told me that if the guy was intimidated by my Mincha, he clearly wasn’t for me.
Joseph, I thought you said that the point of this thread was not about divorce. Now you seem to be saying that it is.
This thread is about romance. I do not see any quotes from Rav Avigdor Miller saying that is the reason for the majority of divorces.
Although, Sparkly, I am finding it harder and harder to understand why you don’t just pick up the phone and call a therapist already. If you are going to make it so obvious that you need one, then don’t get upset when people tell you so.
Meno, I’m not sure that was such a helpful comment…
What in the world are feinschmeckers?
Meno: “Speed dating is when you date while you’re davening, so as not to waste any time.”
Wow, if that could be done, that would solve my problem!! I hate dating (at least the current system), and I have been trying to come up with another way to meet my zivug. I daven twice a day anyhow, so if I could date while davening – problem solved!! The truth is there is a mesorah for such a thing – Yitzchak and Rivka did it. Well actually, Yitzchak and Eliezer did the davening – all Rivka had to do was draw water and feed it to camels. I’d 1,000 times rather do that than go on a date!!