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Joseph, I just took my own advice and started to reread the thread (although I don’t have time to reread the whole thing now). I realize that there is something I wrote that you may have misunderstood. When I wrote that the Beis Din won’t refuse a divorce when one person wants it and the other doesn’t, I did not mean to imply that they can force the other person to grant the divorce.
I was referring to a situation in which the other party is convinced to grant the divorce even though he did not initially wish to do so. If the Rabbanim and/or therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and is harmful to any or all of the parties involved, they will try to encourage them to get divorced. How strongly they will do so will obviously depend on the precise circumstances and the people involved. And I am only referring to a situation in which conciliation was attempted and proven unsuccessful.
Again, I was never referring to the halachos of Gitten but rather the “hashkafos” (which obviously are also halacha, since being a mentch is also a halacha, albeit not a technical one)
Joseph, can you please do me a very big favor? When you have a chance (maybe on Chol HaMoed, since I assume you are very busy right now),reread this entire thread carefully, paying particular attention to my posts. (If you are married, I would suggest asking your wife to read it as well and getting her feedback).
I would really appreciate it if you would do that.
Thank you and good Shabbos.
By the way, I don’t thinkit was never considered an ideal situation. The second wife is called a “tzarah”, and the one who is less loved than the other is called “snuah”. The ideal relationship to which our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu is compared is that of one man and one woman.
Huh? Serious?
TheRealDonaldTrump – I realize you are just quoting Joseph and trying to make a point to him (although I hadn’t realized that the first time you brought this quote – I apologize), but, I wish you wouldn’t keep bringing this quote. It seems to me that there may be an element of Motzi Shem Ra here, since the implication from your words is that Rav Miller really said this.
Joseph – please pay attention to my posts and to what is going on here. There is no contradiction to this Teshuva and anything I have written. This Teshuva is discussing whether or not halachically the man can be forced to give his wife a Get. That is not the topic of discussion. No one is arguing with you on the halachos of Gitten. It is an area of halacha that I know almost nothing about, so I have no way of knowing whether you are right or wrong, and I have no interested in discussing, and I couldn’t care less in what situations a man is halachically obligated to give his wife a divorce.
The topic of discussion is whether or not according to Torah hashkafa/middos/values/, if Rabbanim and therapists have determined that a husband is abusive and controlling, and it would be in the best interests of the wife and children for the couple to get divorced, the husband should be encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce.
What do you mean – what is your problem?
Joseph – then you clearly weren’t paying attention to what your posts were posted in response to.
Sparkly – 1.what does Gothic mean? 2. Read Winnie the Pooh’s thread. If you get married now, you are headed for a divorce.
“If you spoke to him about a case where the husband is withholding a get when there is no chance of reconciliation, just out of spite, he would probably tell you the man isn’t human and the get should be given.”
Thank you for agreeing with me! So why in the world did you just write a post in the other thread arguing with me for saying that someone should get divorced in such a situation? Or did you not read the entire thread and therefore not realize the context of your post?
The Torah sanctions divorce in certain cases. Obviously, it’s not that simple and it’s not always the right thing to do, but it definitely is in some cases or it would not be allowed.
“dressed no differently from anyone walking in the street”
That doesn’t sound so good…
I try to remind myself that it is their problem, not mine, and try not to think about it. Of course, it isn’t easy since I am very into the concept of “kol Yisrael areivim..” and it isn’t easy for me not to feel bad for them. But once I realized that it is the right thing to do (imho), it was much easier. I can’t solve all the world’s problems – I can only do my best.
Also, during “hashiveinu” in Shemona Esrei, I say a Tefila for specific people I know to be chozer b’teshuva. I include all the people I am mad at and haven’t forgiven. I also include Yair Lapid and Bibi Netanyahu. I include all my not-Frum or OTD relatives and acquaintances. I include a lot of people who would probably be very insulted if they knew about it, but I make sure to put my name first so it doesn’t sound too gaavadik.
Chovos Halevavos (Duties of the Heart if you’re buying it in English). Once you buy it, read Shaar Habitachon. Required reading for everyone.
“there are PLENTY of people my age that are on the dating site.”
Not Yeshivish girls. And you claim to be very Yeshivish.
Huh? Are you really a genius at languages, Gofish, or did you find some website to do that for you?
thebabbler – I can relate!
In terms of the slow pace during Yomtov season, one nice thing is that I have noticed less Loshon Hara lately – I suppose in honor of Aseres Yimei Teshuva. Hope it lasts!
Sparkly – I don’t think you should be dating yet, and I certainly don’t think you should start with dating sites – I think you should try shadchanim first. But if you are going to use a dating site, SawYouAtSinai is the best because they work through shadchanim. Just make sure you get references and check the guys out well before you agree to go out.
Sparkly – you have said that you started college early, which means you could not have been more than 17 when you started. I think that you also said that you are in your third year of college, which would make you no more than 19. Even if you are in your fourth year of college, you can’t be more than 20. In any case, you are definitely younger than 25, so you are way too young for dating sites.
Dating sites can be very dangerous. You have no idea who the guys are. It is very different from having someone set you up who knows both you and the guy. In Eretz Yisrael, people meet in hotel lobbies, so dating is safe, because if the guy turns out to be nuts, you can just leave, get on a bus and go home. In the U.S, the guy picks you up in a car, so you have to be very careful who you go out with. If you think about, you are getting into a car with a strange guy! That is nuts!
One major difference between having a live person set you up and a dating site is that when someone sets you up, the guy has someone he has to answer to, and when there is no shadchan or at least not a live one, he has no one he has to answer to. It’s kind of like the difference between taking a taxi that belongs to a company vs. a private taxi driver.
I don’t think you are ready to date yet at all, but if you do, you should start with shadchanim and/or having friends/acquaintances set you up. Dating sites only make sense for someone who has been dating for a few years.
Abba_S: I think you have a hard time figuring out who said what to whom. That may explain some of your comments in other threads.
As you wrote in another thread – “yes they are messengers from Hashem, but that does not make them loveable”.
Thebabbler – I struggled with this issue for years- the issue of not being able to be moichel people. I finally asked a Rav about it and found out that I do not have a chiyuv to be moichel people who have not asked me mechila. We actually say that in the Tefilas Zaka on the night of Yom Kippur.
It is a big maaleh to be able to do so, and kol hakavod to those who can do it. But I realized that if I am not holding by it and it is not a chiyuv to do so, I should not feel bad about it. I think that it is very important to accept your feelings. Even if you eventually are able to reach the level of being able to forgive people, you can only get to that point if you first accept your feelings and forgive yourself for feeling angry at people who hurt you.
I feel that right now I shouldn’t be working on forgiving people; I should be working on acknowledging my feelings.
I read a library book recently on this topic that I really liked. It was a “not-Jewish” book from the public library, but it happened to be written by someone Jewish (I think traditional but not Frum). I personally felt that her approach to forgiveness might be more in line with a Torah derech than a lot of the speeches people give about how you just have to be mevater and give in etc. I think that people have to be realistic and accepting of themselves first, and should not feel guilty for not being able to do something which is “lifnim meshuras hadin”.
Someone who hurt you has a chiyuv to ask mechila, and you have no obligation to forgive him until he does. If you are able to do so that is wonderful, but if you can’t, don’t feel badly about it.
I personally do believe that if someone hurt you and you are waiting for them to ask mechila, you should let them know about it so they can have the opportunity to ask mechila. If they don’t realize you are waiting for an apology, then it might not be fair to not be moichel them.
Abba_S: Gofish said she thinks she knows who I am but I don’t know who she is (meaning she doesn’t actually know me – she just knows who I am). As far as I know, she doesn’t know who Takamammash is and neither do I.
I don’t live on a small Yishuv on the West Bank, and I highly doubt that Gofish does either.
Health – just a word of advice if you really want people to set you up – maybe you should try working on how you address other people. You are entitled to disagree with others, but it can be done without personal affronts such as “You never learnt in a real Yeshiva!”
“I don’t think anyone was “having trouble”, I think some posts take excessively longer to read and approve”
I think my first post was shorter than my second post, but the second post was posted way before it. That’s why I assumed you guys weren’t sure if you should post it.
Meno – I was waiting for someone to say something like that!
If you buy and read Rav Avigdor Miller’s books, then you can tell us what he really says for real.
My guess would be that if someone is a wonderful emotional state, they won’t commit suicide after being embarrassed, but if they are already depressed, it might be a contributing factor.
In general, we have no idea what the effects of our words and actions are, for good or for bad, and we have to always be extremely careful about everything we do. There are many stories of people who were about to commit suicide and changed their minds at the last minute because one person was a bit friendly to them at the right moment. Even if you are not preventing a suicide by being friendly, you may uplift the person’s mood and he may then prevent someone from committing suicide or he may make a life-altering decision.
We cannot fathom the effect of our simple actions!
Gofish – I don’t think that Joseph is as bad as he sounds. From what I “know” of him, he actually seems like a very nice person, and I don’t think he ever engages in personal insults (which is hard to avoid around here) even when he feels strongly about something. I think the issue is just the way he expresses himself, and I think that I finally figured out what his point was here. I will post more about it later, bli neder. (I already posted a bit about it).
Sparkly – you are way too young for a dating site. It is not safe for someone your age to be on a dating site, even a Frum one.
Gofish: “I think I might actually know you… If I’m correct, you wouldn’t know me, but you would definitely know some of my friends.”
That sounds scary.
“For some reason, I just saw this now.”
It wasn’t for some reason. The moderators were apparently having trouble deciding if they wanted to post it, and they left it in yellow for a while. Meanwhile, they posted a later comment of mine, as well as other comments from other people. You read those comments before this one was posted. When they did decide to post this, they posted it in its original place (before the other posts that really came later but were already read by people), so I’m surprised you saw it at all.
I find it frustrating when they do that (I’m NOT criticizing you moderators; I understand why you do that), since people may not end up seeing it, and also, since sometimes, a later post of mine may not make sense if you didn’t see the first one.
I don’t think anyone was “having trouble”, I think some posts take excessively longer to read and approve
Little Froggie – except that in your case, I am sure you really were sorry and did apologize to Hashem.
In any case, it is a tremendous zchus.
ZD – I think it’s a yeshivish expression that I picked up in Lakewood.
Kapusta – no one was was comparing Gedolim here. The context of the discussion was comparing a Gadol versus a regular person (i.e. non-Gadol). I am not “judging” Rav Avigdor Miller for the fact that he wasn’t a Gadol. I am also not a Gadol and neither are you. Those are just facts that do not reflect badly on anyone. And yes, I do need to know who is a Gadol and who is not so that I know how to treat them.
Yekke2- the term “Daas Torah” is used in different ways, which can cause a lot of unfortunate confusion. There are basically two ways to use the term “Daas Torah”. One of these is the way it is used when talking about Gedolei Hador (such as Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita, or Rav Shach Zatsal). In this context, it means (at least according to most people) that we all have to listen to what they say when they make a pronouncement for the klal. (even then, some might say that there can be more than one Gadol Hador, and if they disagree, you can choose which one to listen to, but many would say that there is only one Gadol Hador and we all have to listen to him, but I DON’T want to go there, since that is not the topic under discussion and I DO NOT want that to become the topic under discussion). In any case, in terms of this usage of the term “Daas Torah”, I and you do not have the right or the ability to disagree. (at best if there is a dissenting opinion amongst Gedolim, we MAY have the right to choose whom to follow, but it’s not so simple).
Then there is the second way that the term “Daas Torah” is used. In this way, it can be used in reference to anyone who is at all learned, and it has percentages (not that we can calculate exactly). To the extent that someone has learned and INTERNALIZED the teachings of the Torah, his views will be Daas Torah. Some people may have 5% Daas Torah and some may have 99% (I don’t think that anyone can be said to have 100%). (This last paragraph is based on a quote from the Seifer “Daas Torah”. I don’t have the source on me, although I can possibly try to locate it at some point).
According to the second usage of the term, I have a certain amount of Daas Torah, Rav Avigdor Miller had a certain amount of Daas Torah, and every Rav and Talmid Chacham has a certain amount. When it is used this way, it is more subjective, in the sense that I can choose whose “Daas Torah” I want to listen to (assuming that I am choosing based on intellectually honest reasons. Comfort level MAY POSSIBLY be considered an intellectually honest reason in CERTAIN cases.) According to this definition, no one can tell me that I have to follow a certain Rav (such as R’ Avigdor Miller) because he is Daas Torah.
When I used the term “Daas Torah”, I was referring to the first definition. Actually, that is the only way that I,personally ever use the term, and I don’t like it when people use it the second way, since it leads people to think that anyone who has learned some Torah is in the same category as a Gadol and everyone has to follow them. When people feel that they can’t accept something that some Rav or Talmid Chacham said, they end up losing respect for the Gedolim, since they never learned to distinguish between the two.
In any case, the point is that one can bring Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita as a source but not Rav Avigdor Miller.
or maybe I’m just on a very low level…
I think it’s a really high level to forgive people who aren’t sorry and intend to do it again!! I’m totally not holding by that. I always have lots of kavana when I say those words in the Tefilas Zaka.
“And a beis din cannot order a divorce be given, when it is unwilling, unless halacha specifically specifies those circumstances qualify for a mandatory divorce… As far as “encouraging” a divorce be given, of course there is more latitude if the circumstances justify it. But at the end of the day if he decides he doesn’t want to get divorced despite being encouraged to do so, and halacha is that he cannot be forced (as you admit), then he is under no obligation to do so.”
I wasn’t talking about ORDERING a divorce. I am talking about a situation in which it is clear to the Rabbanim involved that there is abuse and they tell the guy that he should get divorced and he refuses to listen to them. I didn’t say that they can force him to do so. That is the whole point – they can’t force him, and he can decide to be stubborn and cruel and refuse to give a get. That is exactly why such a person should be encouraged to get divorced and not encouraged to refuse to do so.
“All my last number of comments have been speaking generally and not to the OPs specific circumstances, since no one (you included) has enough information about them to render an opinion, let alone a judgment. Keep that in mind when reading my above comments.”
I will be “dan l’kaf zchus” that this comment comes from the fact that you are a guy and not a girl. I think that one of the differences between the way that men and women think is that women think in terms of context and men don’t. In some ways it’s a maaleh and in other ways it’s a chisaron. That may be why men learn Gemara and women generally don’t, because it may be better for learning gemara. On the other hand, women are usually better at relationships because they think within contexts.
In this situation, you can’t remove the context. This thread was not about a theoretical halachic discussion. Those are better left for the Beis Medrash. It was about Lenny’s specific situation and what he should do if the Rabbanim determine that there is abuse taking place and tell him that he should get divorced. You are right that we don’t have all the details, but: 1. I was talking about if in fact they spoke to therapists and Rabbanim and they recommended a divorce, and 2. There is a lot that can be surmised from what Lenny wrote (but you’d probably have to be a girl to be able to see it).
I think that one of the reasons that people sometimes get upset by your posts is that you don’t consider the context and how people will understand your posts.
Anyhow, I’m happy at least that you confirmed my limud zchus that you weren’t thinking about the context.
There are only three Mitzvos that are done with your whole body – Sukkah, Yishuv HaAretz and Mikveh. If you eat in a Sukkah in Eretz Yisrael, you are doing two Mitzvos with your whole body at once!
“lilmod ulelamaid – a person like me would NOT work with an arranged marriage.”
I didn’t say that – Joseph did.
Kapusta, I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. According to you, there is no such as a Gadol. Judaism is not a democracy, we don’t believe that everyone is equal, and we do believe that there are people called Gedolim who ARE much greater than the rest of us and whom we are required to follow. This is a basic concept of Judaism and one that our entire Mesorah is based on.
ZD – I meant “maskim” as in “I agree with you.”
Joseph – is that what you did?
get therapy and go to seminary first. Get back to me about this when you are back from seminary.
Joseph – you are talking such nonsense! I am really beginning to lose all respect for you. How can you think of writing such a thing? You can’t just decide how divorce works based on reading the Shulchan Aruch. Halacha doesn’t start and end with the Shulchan Aruch, especially when it comes to something as complicated as divorce. You have to find out how the Beis Dins nowadays deal with divorce, and I can assure you that if someone is being abused, they tell the husband to give her a Get, and in some cases, if he refuses, they will even beat him until he does.
Probably the halachos you are talking about are dealing with whether or not the Beis Din can FORCE someone to give a divorce. I was not talking about whether or not they can force someone to give a divorce, but rather, whether or not, they will try to encourage him to do so.
And the fact still remains that in the context of the current situation, you are (whether deliberately or not) encouraging someone to abuse his wife instead of trying to get him to fulfill his obligations towards her. Why would you do such a thing?? That is totally against the Torah!!! And if you don’t see how that is against the Torah, you need to start learning Mussar very seriously!!!
Please tell me that you weren’t paying attention to the context and were not trying to imply such a thing. I really would like to be able to be dan you l’kaf zchus!!