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There are parks everywhere – that’s why I figured it was a good generic answer.
Gofish, were you able to get a Lulav and Esrog in the end?
Go to a park. That’s what most people I know do. It’s inexpensive and Kosher and works for all ages.
Shopping – why are you telling everyone to look for me?!
When I was in the US, one day a traffic guard starting talking to me – she wanted to let me know she was Jewish too, so she tells me that she also has Jewish hair like me – like a lion’s mane! I was like, thanks for the compliment!
I love chess! Who wants to play with me?
Joseph – I just want to ask you one thing, and I realized I need to make it clear what it is. From reading your posts, someone could come away with a very negative and completely untrue idea of Judaism. Specifically, they may think that if a husband is abusive or controlling of his wife, she is stuck in the marriage forever, unless there is a witness of physical abuse. Since abuse almost never involves physical abuse and since it would be almost impossible to find a witness in those rare cases in which there is physical abuse, this would mean that a victim of abuse (of any sort) would almost never be able to get divorced.
This is far from the truth! In nearly all cases in which a woman feels that she is being abused, she IS able to obtain a divorce. Additionally, even in a case in which there is no abuse but just personality differences that render the marriage impossible despite the couple having attempted marriage therapy and spoken to Rabbanim who tried to help them, most of the time they are also able to get divorced.
I know all this for a fact. I do not know just a few cases (as you stated). Most of the guys who have been suggested to me for the past decade or so were divorced, and I check out their situations extensively!!!! Whenever a divorced guy is suggested to me, I usually speak to either the marriage therapist and/or the Rabbi/s who were involved in the divorce. That means that I have been researching divorce in the Frum world for the past decade!
Additionally, my mother is in the middle of writing a book on the topic and has been researching the topic for well over a decade, including interviewing numerous divorced women. I asked her about this topic on Erev Yomtov, and she told me that in these types of cases (the wife wants a divorce and the husband doesn’t but there is no physical abuse), they are usually able to get divorced since the Rabbanim and/or therapists usually are able to convince the husband to do so. She did mention that in those cases in which the husband does not agree to do so (hopefully, the minority of cases), they have to “buy him off” and give him a lot of money, but in any case, they are nearly always able to get a divorce (and usually without major extortion).
The only “sources” you have been bringing do not contradict any of the statements above, but someone reading this thread may receive the incorrect impression that they do. All they show is that Jews believe in making marriage a priority and trying to make it work whenever possible. That does not contradict anything that I wrote.
That should be obvious, but may not be to everyone, so I would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that fact, for the sake of our readership who may inadveretently receive the wrong impression.
If you can’t do so, then I appreciate it if the moderators could close this thread because I think there is no point in continuing it anymore. I think it accomplished everything it was meant to that it could.
just for the record, I only decided that I wanted to get married after my parents got divorced. I was too young yet to get married but old enough to have just started thinking about the concept in theory shortly before they got divorced. I remember wondering why in the world people get married, but then when they got divorced, I realized that theirs was not a “real” marriage and did not represent what marriage is about (something I would never have realized o/w).
And that is my response to all those posts that people wrote about the effect of divorce on kids!!
1. sensitive & warm (but also self-confident)
2. appreciates my intelligence (and everything else about me!)
3. Machshiv Torah
4. growth-oriented
bump
Lenny1970:
1. I would like to apologize again if I said anything to offend you. I was trying very hard not to, but sometimes when you are having a discussion that is a combination of theoretical/philosophical and practical AND when you are “talking” to more than one person at a time, it is very difficult to not inadvertantly offend someone. So I would like to apologize if I did, and I hope you are moichel.
2. I must say that I am impressed at the way you are taking this long drawn-out discussion/argument revolving around your life!!
3. Shkoyach for the way you are dealing with your situation. It sounds like you have it under control and really are trying to deal with it appropriately. And I do apologize if I unfairly judged you in that regard.
4. “Lilmod, you say “IF the Rabbanim and therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and that they should get divorced, and his wife still hates him and is insisting on a divorce, he should not be stubborn and refuse to give his wife a get for many years.” Lilmod, I agree.”
Great! So if you agree with me, maybe we can just close this thread now! Oh wait, I am still waiting for Joseph to acknowledge that I am right and to prove to the oilam that he is capable of admitting when he is wrong :). So as soon as Yomtov ends in New York and he admits I am right, then maybe we can close this thread!
5. After you speak to the Beis Din, I would love to hear what they say, and how in fact, Batei Dinim do deal with divorce issues (although I know they are not all the same – I just got that information from someone I know who is an expert on the topic).
6. Hatzlacha Rabba!!!
7. Moadim L’Simcha!
Person1: “I had a few topics I considered posting about but I wasn’t sure if there was crowd for that.”
I would probably be very interested in hearing them.
Okiale – I actually have some very strong connections to Chofetz Chaim, so I was going to offer to help you get in, but then I realized that I can’t since I don’t who you are!! Oh, well! I can wish you hatzlacha at least! And I can try to find out for you if they would be able to accomodate you based on the information I know about you.
Okiale – I’m not sure what you mean by a college prep school. Both Chofetz Chaim and Ner Yisrael have secular subjects and grant a high school diploma. I am sure that the secular curriculum they offer is enough to get into college since I think that many (maybe most?) of their graduates attend college.
Also as Writer Soul mentioned, most people who want to are able to get into top-notch colleges with a standard Yeshiva education that includes secular subjects. I have a sister who got into Barnard and Harvard Law School with a Bais Yaakov education. I had a classmate who went to Harvard with a Bais Yaakov education, and I know a boy who went to Harvard Law School from Chofetz Chaim. Not that I’m recommending that you go to Harvard; I’m just pointing out that I don’t think that going to Chofetz Chaim or Ner Yisrael would stop you from being able to. You don’t need an incredible secular education to get into college. If you go to a City College, you don’t need much. And even if you want to get into an Ivy League college, all you need are motivation and good SAT scores.
Strive For Truth (Rav Dessler, translation by Rav Aryeh Carmell, I think)
Derech Hashem by the Ramchal (there is an english translation).
ZD & AY – I think you are both saying the same thing. ZD is talking about the way things are (that people relate to Gedolim like they relate to elected leaders) and AY is talking about how things should be – that people should realize that the Gedolim were not “chosen” in a democratic election, but rather they were chosen by the experts, and therefore we must respect them and not act like it is up to us to decide who the Gedolim are.
Health: “Is that why you are hesitant to get married – because your parents got divorced & there was a lot of fighting?!?”
Who said I was hesitant to get married??!! Talk about making assumptions!!! One of the most common stereotypes around is that anyone who is older and single is obviously too picky.
And now I’m just waiting now for you to continue with the rest of the stereotype and go on to assume that obviously the reason I’m not married yet must be that all along I have been refusing to go out with guys who were working, and that is the right thing to do when you are in your 20’s, but at my age it is wrong to give preference to guys in Klei Kodesh.
(Count the assumptions there: 1. When I was younger, I only wanted someone learning, and refused to go out with anyone who was working. 2. I still only want someone learning and refuse to go out with someone who is working. 3. When you are young, you are only supposed to only go out with guys who are learning. 4. When you are older you are not allowed to give preference to guys in Klei Kodesh.)
I’m not following your example and assuming you are making those assumptions. I am just saying that they usually go together with your above assumption.
Hatzlacha! If you’re in Yerushalayim, you should be able to find people on the streets offering a chance to do Lulav and Esrog. I think I remember doing that in the past.
Health – Usually people do go to their own childrens’ Simchas, although there can be exceptions. In any case, I wrote that as an exception so it doesn’t really take away from the truth of the statement. I suppose technically it would have been more accurate to have written “with the possible exception..” but I don’t think that’s necessary in a case in which it’s true in 99% of cases.
Did you manage to find Arba Minim in the end Gofish?
Flatbusher – thanks for being moichel. I didn’t know anything about others’ comments. I also happen to know of someone who was told that something similar was muttar (or at least not assur). I don’t know the specifics of his situation or the way his sheilah was asked (so I wouldn’t want anyone reading this to make assumptions regarding the permissibility of this) but I also had no reason to assume that it was definitely assur, and I had no reason to pass judgment and did not intend to do so. But I do feel bad if it sounded like I was doing so, and I appreciate your being moichel.
Have a great Yom Tov!
flatbusher – You sounded like you were insulted by what I wrote, and I’ve been racking my brains to figure out why. I think I finally “chapped”. When I made that comment about Gehinnom, did you think I meant you chas v’shalom:?! Such a thing never occurred to me!!! I was referring to people who do something assur and think it’s okay because others do it. In your case, it never occurred to me that you were doing something “assur”!!! So it never occurred to me you would think I was talking about you!!!
I was simply making the point that the fact that other people do things is not the reason it’s okay. I just took it for granted that you had asked a sheilah and/or knew it was totally “muttar”.
Maybe it seems obvious that that is how my words would be taken, but it really hadn’t occurred to me in a million years (as one of the moderators pointed out previously, maybe I am a bit naive, Boruch Hashem!) In any case, if that is how you took it, I sincerely apologize!!! And I hope you are moichel. I would never have written it if I had had a “hava amina” that it would be taken that way!!!
“1.because when there is stuff to hide everyone suddenly becomes very into shmiras haloshon.”
Just want to point out a technical point (for the sake of our readership who may get the wrong impression): If someone was supposed to tell you something and didn’t, they were not keeping Hilchos Shmiras Halashon – they were transgressing it!
“Thank you!
That’s one of the reasons that I never wanted to get divorced!
I knew that there will be much more fighting.”
Health, I think it usually stops eventually, although it could take until the kids are grown up. It seems to me that most people who get divorced eventually reach the point that they aren’t fighting. Once the kids are grown up, it is much easier, since you don’t have anything (or much) to fight about anymore, and you don’t even have to deal with each other anymore, except for attending the same Simchas at opposite sides of the Mechitza.
If there are any girls who would rather be someone’s wife than be single (and t/f want the cherem revoked), I think they would change their minds very quickly if their husbands were to take a (second or third) wife AFTER them!!
Also, maybe it would be a solution to the Shidduch Crisis if there really were a crisis, but the problem is that there is NO crisis since being single is NOT a crisis!
“The amazing and beautiful thing about us women is that we melt like wax as soon as you are even a little kind again”
True. Go us!
I never even heard of it before. But it does sound Yum!
Joseph – I just reread the entire thread and I think it is very clear what my point was. I would appreciate it if you would take the time to reread all my posts CAREFULLY. Thank you!
Joseph: “Kapusta, if you agree that for purposes of psak we can judge which gedolim and rabbonim are comparatively greater than their peers, as your comment excepted for purposes of psak, then we’re likely not disagreeing much. The main reason it is useful to know which gedolim and rabbonim are greater than their peers is to be able to choose which rabbonim we should follow for halacha and hashkafa, by us choosing those who are the greater ones.
Beningnuman, on the other hand, is disagreeing with Rav Shach when benignuman maintains we can’t judge altogether who is greater. Rav Shach said we could – and we should! – judge that, and that we should follow the greater ones.”
Joseph +1
I’m definitely far from an expert on boys’ schools, but would Ner Yisroel or Chafetz Chaim make sense?
But I apologize if you thought I was even though I thought it was clear that I wasn’t.
flatbusher – If you’re referring to me, I wasn’t being holier than thou. I made it clear that I wasn’t judging – I was simply commenting on the fact that you mentioned that there were Yeshivish looking people there as though that is a “ra’aya” that it is okay (I then realized that might not have been what you meant, which is why I tried to delete it.)
I’ve probably been guilty of the same myself
Yekke2 – that’s a nice and true and important concept, but if you read this thread in its entirety you will see that it has no relevance here (although I could see how you might think so if you only read some individual posts and not the entire thing).
yekke2, if you really want to know:
1. Someone advised Sparkly to go on a dating site, and she thought that was a good idea.
2. I thought it was a bad idea at this stage and told her so.
3. She responded that many girls her age do so.
4. I told Sparkly that Yeshivish girls her age don’t generally go on dating sites.
5. She said that she can’t be Yeshivish because she’s gothic which apparently means she listens to Gothic music. I still have no clue what that is, but apparently it’s bad so she wants to stop doing it, because I guess she wants to go back to being Yeshivish even though then she won’t be able to go to dating sites which she shouldn’t be doing at this stage anyhow.
I thought I had deleted that. I meant to.
“the issue with gothic music is that its very addicting and bad for the neshama and i see it being a bad influence on me. so how do i stop listening to it?”
Sparkly, guess what my answer is.
Sorry I can’t help you Gofish, but I don’t live in Yerushalayim so I don’t know.
“it’s harder to forgive, but like you said, THAT IS NOT THE AVODAH , living as joyfully as possible IS THE AVODAH…., the Torah does not require super-human behaviour. If you can do it, great.”
Shkoyach! Hatzlacha! Living as joyfully as possibly is certainly a hard enough Avoda… You sound like a wonderful person who has managed to deal with a lot and still maintain her Emuna and Bitachon. Hashem should give you the strength to continue to do so ad meah v’esrim plus (why should you be limited to 120 years?)!
Person1 – I think that Joseph does care about how the Torah applies to real life, as seen from his last posts. I think that he just didn’t realize how his posts could be understood.
“mashgiach, why “agent”?”
I guess because it’s “Mashiach Agent”, not Mashgiach, so if he left out the “Agent”, it would just say “Mashiach”! And if he thinks he’s Mashiach, I think the moderators would block him!
“There are other frum guys there of various stripes, including one yeshivishe looking one.”
That fact should not be used to determine whether or not it’s okay. I’m not poskening or judging whether or not it is since you didn’t ask my opinion and since I’m not qualified to posken on the matter and since I have no idea; I am simply pointing out that that should not be a factor in the decision.
To quote someone I know, “There’s plenty of room in Gehinnom for everyone.” (again, I am not poskening or passing judgment on this issue – simply pointing out that the fact that others do it doesn’t necessarily make it okay.)
Person1: “LU while I I wouldn’t say that you’re wasting your time in this discussion – as your posts are of interest to me and probably other members”
Thanks for the compliment!
Joseph – are you serious????!!! Do you seriously think that polygamy would be a good idea? As you yourself wrote, “And there have even been Ashkenazic rabbonim who said the ban (which technically expired per R”G’s takana but was kept in place by the rabbonim of the time post-expiration) could be lifted if the rabbonim today felt it beneficial to do so.” If that is true, then obviously the Rabbanim do NOT feel that it would be a good idea to do so, so nothing more needs to be said.
And the vast majority of women and girls would NOT be happy if the ban were lifted. I don’t think the fact that one person in the CR wrote that she would be interested can be taken as any kind of proof.
Huh? What in the world is this about, or do I not want to know?
Person1 – I have a higher opinion of Joseph than that. I think that he is capable of seeing reason and acknowledging when he is wrong. I’m not 100% sure yet if my opinion of him is justified, but I’m not giving up on him yet.
Joseph – “Lilmod, the topic of discussion as asked by the OP is (to directly quote him) “whether her reasons for wanting a Get are halachically sufficient or not.” He was not asking whether he should be “encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce” as you keep insisting. As an aside, in my opinion, the stage the OP is in would be where they’d be discouraged from jumping to divorce and encouraged to work on reconciliation.”
Joseph, I will have to go back and reread the entire thread from beginning to end (as I advised you to do), but I really thought that your comments were in response to my comment to the effect that AFTER they have tried reconciliation, IF the Rabbanim and therapists feel that the marriage is not viable and that they should get divorced, and his wife still hates him and is insisting on a divorce, he should not be stubborn and refuse to give his wife a get for many years.
If your comments were in response to that, then the implication is that there is no reason he should feel that he should give a Get even in the above situation.
I definitely took your comments that way, and if that is not what you meant, I think that it is important that you clarify that and make it very clear, since I imagine there are others who understood your comments that way. Gofish and I both certainly did, so I imagine there are others. There are thousands of people reading this (possibly) and it is important that that be clarified so that people don’t come away with a really negative and incorrect view of Torah Judaism and/or Chareidi Judaism, which I am sure was not your intention.
As for your last point, I agree with you 100% that they are at stage in which they should be working on reconciliation and not jumping to divorce, and I thought that I had made that very clear. However, it is POSSIBLE that the reconciliation will not work and a divorce will be necessary and I felt that it was important that I point out to Lenny that if that happens he should not withold the divorce.
The reason I pointed this out now is because I don’t know Lenny and I will probably never have a chance to tell him this again. I did feel (although I can’t know for sure) that this MAY be something that he might need to hear. I did not think that he needed to hear that he should be attempting reconciliation and not jumping to divorce since that was something that was already clear to him.
I will have to try to look up the Teshuva in the original hebrew when I have a chance since it doesn’t make so much sense to analyze the words of something when reading a translation.
But, based on the way it is phrased here, I would assume that he is talking about a technical halachic obligation and I am assuming that is what the Teshuva is about.
Rabbanim definitely encourage men to give a Get when they feel that there is abuse, and it is a perversion of Torah to say otherwise.
“I hope you realize I was referring to women in general not the author of this thread”
I really wish that when there is a thread revolving around a specific person and his/her specific situation, people wouldn’t post general comments that aren’t meant to apply to the specific situation. If you want to make a general comment, start a new thread.
Just my personal opinion…
WinnieThePooh – Regarding the shidduch crisis, the problem is not a lack of single and divorced men. There are plenty of them! Anyone who thinks the goal in life is to be married and doesn’t care whom she is married to can be married in two seconds. I don’t think there are any single girls who were unable to find someone who wanted to marry them!
However, most girls nowadays are uninterested in being married simply for the sake of being married, so they certainly would have absolutely no interest in beind someone’s second wife!