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“This point is best exemplified by Rav Elyashiv’s teshuva that I cited above (and would still suggest you read and provide feedback here on) of the case where they were separated for six years and Rav Elyashiv ruled he had no obligation to give a Get.”
Thanks for providing the source. I will try to do so as soon as I can locate a copy of the Sefer.
“And my (likely mistaken) impression that you were somewhat dismissive of S”A and teshuvos”
Chas V’Shalom! I hope that wasn’t implied in anything I said.
Amen! You too and everyone else in the CR and all of Am Yisrael!!
Joseph, I will be leaving for Shabbos soon and probably won’t be able to post until after Yom Tov. Before I go, I wanted to let you know that I did post an apology to you. My first few versions were deleted by the moderators, and I am hoping my last one will go through, but since I don’t know if it will or not, I wanted you to know that I did post an apology to you. If it does goes through, you should also know that the original version was better.
Additionally, I want you to know that I have been thinking about the things you have written about divorce & marriage, and I am starting to understand your point, and it has given me a different perspective on the matter. I think this is an important perspective to have, certainly in addition to the perspective I had previously if not instead of it.
I know that sounds funny after I was arguing with you so much, but between the fact that certain things became clearer to me in your more recent posts and the fact that I have been thinking a lot about what your point is, I have reached that conclusion. I will post more explaining what I mean after YT, B’ezras Hashem.
In any case, I think it is very good for me to have that perspective, so I appreciate your introducing it to me. (although this does not mean that I think that I was wrong either).
Thank you very much and have a good Shabbos and Yom Tov.
Person1: Some examples I can think of off-hand:
1. A divorced guy whose wife divorced him because of physical abuse.
2. A guy who was bi-polar
3. A guy who was on medication for depression
4-6. Two or three cases where the reference/Rav (same Rav all 3 times) didn’t specify what the issue was since he felt that halachically he wasn’t allowed to and it wasn’t necessary – he just told me the guy wasn’t for me. I think that in one or two of these cases, this was after I asked if the guy had any problems and after the Rav asked me to tell him about myself (since he didn’t know me so he had to first make sure that I’m normal and that someone who has serious issues wouldn’t be for me).
In the third case, when I mentioned the guy’s name, the Rav got very concerned and kept asking me if I had gone out with the guy yet and if he had my phone number (I hadn’t and he didn’t). Apparently, the guy had serious issues and there had been at least one instance in which he went out with a girl who broke up with him and he kept harrassing her.
7. There was a divorced guy years ago whose reference told me there were three reasons he was divorced. I no longer remember all three of the reasons, but one was that he was self-centered, and I think the rest were worse.
Those all the ones I can think of off-hand. Does that answer your question?
“I seem to have straightened out.”
Boruch Hashem!
Joseph: “A bas talmid chochom who is a good cook with middos tovos.”
Joe, why did you put “good cook” before “middos tovos”? Aren’t middos more important? And anyhow, doesn’t having good middos include being a good cook? After all, if she has good middos and she knows you want her to be a good cook, then she’ll learn how to be a good cook.
What about the Coffee Room?
DaasYochid, you got your name back! I’m so happy – DaasYochid is a much nicer name!
takahmamash – I think it took me about 5 hours to get there! But it was worth it! And yes, I davened for all of you! I davened for all the Coffee Room Posters in general, but I also included all the specific “names” that I could think of. Yours was one that I remembered because you recently davened for the rest of us. Thanks for giving me the idea of davening for everyone in the CR in general.
Hope to finally go tonight B’ezras Hashem!
Anyone who needs chizuk for being an older single should listen to the following shiur: Go to Rav Zev Leff’s website, go to the Homepage, go to “special shiurim”, scroll down until you get to “Shidduchim – don’t despair” (it’s pretty far down – the shiurim go in order of years, and the one before this says 5770 – this was also given in 5770, but it’s not labeled).
Thebabbler – thanks so much for the compliment!!! You also sound like a really special and impressive person!
Found it! I just located my source for the fact that women don’t have a chiyuv to get married! The reason I know this is because I asked Rav Leff about it years ago. I just remembered that the shiur (at which I asked him this question) was recorded and is on his website. If anyone is interested, you can go to Rav Zev Leff’s website, go to the Homepage, click on “Special Shiurim”, scroll down until you get to “Shidduchim -don’t despair”. The shiurim go in order of years and this one was given in 5770 (it doesn’t say the year, but the one before it says 5669 and the one after it says 5770).
If you fastforward to 30/31 minutes, you can hear me asking him this question and him answering.
By the way, it’s a good shiur for any of the “older singles” present to listen to in any case.
Gofish: “Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me.”
That is for sure!!! Actually, though, I don’t think that most of the people here are like that. I find that most of the posters here seem to be quite respectful. And of course, aside from you, no one here knows my true identity :), so they have no clue who they are speaking about! (not that that makes rudeness or misogyny appropriate).
Joseph, I really was hurt by your post. You have never spoken to me that way before and I was surprised by it. Did you think I was saying something against Halacha, and was that the reason for it? Or were you offended by something I wrote? If so, I would appreciate it if you could let me know so I could apologize. And I would appreciate an apology from you. thanks!
Joseph, do YOU personally think polygamy is a good idea?
And btw, regarding single women who might prefer being a second wife to being no one’s wife, even if that’s true, most married women would prefer that their husbands not have a second wife! Even regarding those women who think they would prefer being a second wife to being single, I have a feeling they would change their minds pretty quickly once they were in such a situation.
I was actually thinking that it could be compared to going to the bathroom in the Sukkah. Using Internet may be necessary and unavoidable (like going to the bathroom is) but it’s not something appropriate for a Sukkah.
Abba_S – I usually get a lot of critical information from references! Granted, I have a lot of experience and know what to ask and how to get information from people. By asking references, I have been saved from going out with and possibly marrying people with very serious problems. It sometimes happens that I am not able to get useful info from the listed references. In those cases, I ask around until I find people to speak to who can give me useful information.
It is critical to check people out before going out! It is basic hishtadlus. There are many stories of people getting married and then divorced because of information they were not told on time. A friend of mine had a friend who nearly got engaged (or maybe was engaged) to someone before she found out he was a child molester. Boruch Hashem, she found out in time before she married him!
Charlie – Women do not have a chiyuv to get married. I have asked a sheilah about it many times.
The Goq +1!
Wisey +1!!
I think that posting in the Coffee Room is both a good test of one’s middos as well as good practice for working on one’s middos! 🙂
Joseph:
1. Thank you very much for responding to my question in your second post!
2. As seen by your first post, you are still completely missing my point. I never said that we don’t posken like the Shulchan Aruch. I made it clear the entire time that I do not know the halachos and I am not talking about the halachos. I am talking about what the Rabbanim do l’maaseh in a situation in which a get can not be forced halachically but they feel that it would be a good idea, as well as what the appropriate recourse would be for the husband in this situation (as you discussed in your second post).
3. If you read my posts carefully, you would see that there was no need for your first post – only for the second post – since your first post had nothing to do with anything I have been writing. I have been referring to the scenario in your second post the entire time.
4. “lilmod, a bit of humility is in order” I am extremely hurt and offended by that sentence. I would not have expected that from you.
5. You wrote that I said that we don’t posken like the Shulchan Aruch. I never said any such thing, and I am offended that you would think that I said such a thing. I said that I am discussing what happens l’maaseh. L’maaseh, many people get divorced nowadays without having witnesses to physical abuse (in most cases, I don’t think there even is physical abuse, but there certainly are no witnesses) even though it was only the wife who wanted the Get and not the husband. The Beis Din may not be able to force the husband to give a Get (as per the Shulchan Aruch you quoted) but he can be convinced or pressurred to do so (by the Rabbanim involved or his wife or others) and that is what happens many if not most of the time.
6. I wouldn’t be so quick to say “the husband is committing no sin”. There are many areas of halacha. The fact that Beis Din can’t force someone to do something does not mean that it is not an aveira. He is being over on “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha.” by forcing his wife to stay in what is probably an abusive marriage. (I’m assuming that we are talking about respectable trustworthy Rabbanim who have a good reason for recommending the divorce and that his reasons for not giving one are based on stubborness, selfishness and/or spite. There may be other scenarios, but those are not the ones I am referring to. I am also not referring to a case in which he sincerely thinks things can work out and he tries for a limited period of time, and when he sees it’s futile does give the Get within a reasonable amount of time.)
lightbrite – while those things are very nice, they don’t really illustrate the qualities that I would want to know about. Doing good deeds and being a nice person are not the same thing.
I once asked a guy’s reference if he was sensitive. The reference responded, “sure, he does lots of chesed.” So I had to explain to him that doing chesed does not necessarily make someone a sensitive person. Being sensitive is about the way you relate to and talk to others. There can be people who go around doing lots of chesed, but are not nice people in terms of how they speak to others.
Who’s SJS? And what does he have to do with anything?
Lightbrite: “A date is an experience you have with another person that makes you appreciate being alone.” lol.
bump
“The most important thing for me is that he is a mentch. First, last and middle criteria.”
Gofish +1. Very true! I didn’t mention it: a) because I assumed it was obvious (although maybe I shouldn’t :)) and
b) it’s somewhat subjective since everyone will define “mentch” differently. I had friends who are considered wonderful people, but when I got to know them better, I discovered that they had some very difficult personality traits, and I would not consider them to be “mentchen” (or whatever the female equivalent is), and if I had a single brother, would definitely not set them up with him.
That’s why I find it is better to be more specific. If you ask a reference questions like, Does he have good middos? Is he smart? etc., of course they will say yes. I try to ask things like, “Is he sensitive?” “Is he of above-average intelligence?” (sometimes I tell them about myself before asking if the guy is smart so they can figure out what my definition of smart is).
Person1, while being an older single girl can be difficult at times, I have found that most of the time I am able to be pretty happy. Actually, I never really thought of being an older single as being so hard and certainly not as being a crisis. I think that there are a few reasons for this:
1. I have experienced things in my life that were WAY harder and I am just thankful that most of those things are past. I look back and can’t believe the things I had to go through in my life. Being single is nothing in comparision!
2. Being single in and of itself is not so hard for me. What is hard are the indirect results of being single, but I don’t usually associate those things with being single, even though perhaps I should. Recently, I did start to associate those things with being single, so I started to think that being single is difficult, but that was a very recent conclusion.
I am referring to things like trying to find a good living arrangement.
The truth is that I think that I have only been thinking about this lately because I recently moved home. The only way I can deal with living at home is by thinking that it is very temporary and that I will get married soon. When I lived on my own, I don’t think that being single bothered me as much.
I don’t know for sure and I never thought about this until this second (as I am writing this), but I would guess that when singles live on their own, they are generally more focused on living their lives in the present but when they live at home, they are more likely to view their current situation as temporary and to be more focused on getting married.
There are maalos and chesronos to each approach. Personally, I found that when I lived on my own and had to find a way to pay the rent, I didn’t have time and energy for shidduch hishtadlus. On the one hand, this meant that I wasn’t depressed about being single (since I was too busy and preoccupied to think about it) but on the other hand, I wasn’t doing hishtadlus. Now that I am living at home, partially in order to be able to spend more time and effort on hishtadlus (although there are other reasons as well), but I find that means that I am more preoccupied and stressed out about being single.
3. Boruch Hashem, I have a very fulfilling life, so being single doesn’t bother me so much. I never saw being married as being my main goal in life. My main goal in life has always been to learn and to teach (as you can tell by my user name!) When I wasn’t doing the teaching I wanted to be doing, I was much more depressed about that than I have ever been about being single. I think that for girls who view being married the way I view learning and teaching, it must be much harder.
4. I think the only times I really start to get bothered (depressed is way too strong a word) by the fact that I am single are when I read articles about how terrible the shidduch crisis is and how awful it is to be an older single, or when someone says something implying that it really hard to be an older single and they feel really bad for me. Then I have to remind myself that I did not consider it a crisis until I read that it was one!!! So I should stop feeling sorry for myself!!
5. I do think that it must be much harder to be an older single guy than an older single girl. It has always bothered me that people are so focused on feeling bad for the girls and no one feels bad for the boys even though it is probably WAY harder for them since boys need to be married much more than girls do.
My impression is that people don’t feel bad for the boys because they assume that any boy who is older and single must have issues, but I don’t think that’s fair for two reasons: A. It’s a very unfair generalization that is not necessarily true in all cases (clearly not in yours, for example).
B. Why is that a reason not to feel bad for them? They didn’t choose to have issues. Even if someone wants to argue that any boy who is older and single must be too picky or have commitment issues because there are so many wonderful single girls out there, why is that something to hold against them? They didn’t choose to have these issues and there might not be anything they can do about it.
6. Lately whenever I have been feeling a bit down about being single, I started hanging out in the CR. It’s a great antidote to stress, boredom and loneliness!
Hatzlacha Rabba! You sound like a wonderful person (1) and I hope you find your zivug soon!!
Okiale – as I said, I don’t think that going to Chofetz Chaim would hold you back from college, and I think that it is important to stress that to your parents. I think that most or many Chofetz Chaim guys do go to College, and like I said, I know someone who went to Harvard Law School.
I haven’t been able to get in touch with the person yet whom I want to speak to, but if I get any helpful information for you, I will let you know bli neder.
I think it would be a good idea if all responders specify if they are male or female, since I think that this is the sort of thing that can be very different for guys and girls. Thank you. (also make sure to let us know if you are still single, and if so, how old you are, what your hashkafa is, what you are looking for, and how we can contact you :))
“Lilmod: please define “can’t”,
For the past several years, I have found it exceedingly difficult (or impossible) to find time for dating. I am not a multi-tasker, and since my financial situation is complicated and unlike most single girls I have basically had to be self-supporting from a relatively young age, all my time and energy has had to go into trying to make ends meet. Most of the time, all of my time and energy is not even enough for that so I certainly have none left for dating.
In case you haven’t noticed, I am a focused intense type of person – the type who puts her all into everything she does, and NOT the type who multi-tasks. Therefore, dating for me is something that takes a lot of time and energy, and I can’t do both (dating and supporting myself). I have a friend who has the opposite personality of me – she is a multitasker and not intense. She goes out a lot because she has no problem fitting in dating and working and doing chesed and having a social life. I can not do that! And the truth is that I’m not sure that her way is the best way. I think it’s possible that part of the reason she is not married yet MAY be because she is not focused enough on each date. In any event, I am not like that and can’t be like that, so it’s irrelevant which way is better.
I actually moved back home recently, partially because I was hoping it would make it easier for me to date. Since rent is the big headache when it comes to finances, not having to worry about rent makes a tremendous difference. However, I still have a lot of responsibilities.
Additionally, there have been a lot of things happenning in my family since I moved home, so my time and energy had to go into helping my family. I am hoping that after Yomtov, things will be a bit easier. However, not only have I not lived at home for many years, I have not even been living in the same COUNTRY as my family so it is a big adjustment, and I am concerned that trying to deal with living with my family will be consuming most of my energy. Plus, I still have a lot of responsibilites from work that was not completed when I was living on my own, plus a new job I am starting in addition to my regular job, etc.
Additionally, the fact that I haven’t gone out in a while means that starting to do so again will be very stressful and require a tremendous amount of energy and since I am already dealing with so much stress (living with my family and taking care of all my other jobs and responsibilites), I am concerned that I will not be able to do it.
The last time that I was supposed to go out, I had to cancel the date twice in a row because I got sick. The second time I cancelled, the guy was already on the bus. I really tried hard not to cancel even though the room was spinning, but I had no choice because every time I tried to stand up, I kept throwing up and couldn’t stop, so it was kind of dangerous. It turned out I had some kind of ear virus, and I was worried that it was psychological because I was stressed out about taking away time that I would normally have been working in order to go out. My friend claims that you can’t bring an ear virus on yourself, but I don’t believe that.
In any case, it was extremely mortifying and I felt really bad about it, and I am really nervous about having to cancel a date again because I think it is a really bad thing to do!! And I have found that things like this happen a lot to me, and I don’t want it to happen again!!! It is both mortifying and rude!
Single events are easier, because it doesn’t matter if you cancel or are late, so there is much less pressure. Also, it is a one-time thing, whereas with a date, you usually feel like you have to go out a second time. I like Joseph’s suggestion to Sparkly of an arranged marriage, but I have no one whom I trust to arrange a marriage for me, and that is really not happenning!!
I think the Shabbos meal idea is an excellent idea, but my friends and acquaintances don’t do those things. I have however started an unofficial campaign to try to convince people to do so. I think that type of thing would work much better for me.
Basically, what I would want is a way of meeting guys that is fun and non-stressful. It is much easier to find time for things that are funa and not stressful.
“Maybe someone wants to watch a torahyanytime shiur.”
I would still say (if asked) that it’s better not to have it in the Sukkah at all. I am not judging anyone, but that is my opinion.
Thebabbler – I’ll miss you! You are right about life being better w/o internet though so I wouldn’t want to discourage you! Enjoy your new life! When I lived on my own and didn’t have Internet, I always felt like the Shechina was in my apartment, so enjoy Hashem’s Company in your new Internet- free life!
You know I just figured out this week that they are Popa and DassYachid! I had been wondering what happened to Daas Yachid. Why in the world was his name changed? Daas Yachid is a much nicer name than Crooked Hillary. Anyhow I thought that Daas Yachid was a boy. Am I wrong? Since I didn’t realize that CH was DY, I thought CH was a girl, since he/she has a girl’s name.
And Popa bar Abba is definitely a nicer name than Donald Trump!
“If all of Shmerel’s classmates are going to theme parks, he may not be too happy about going to the neighborhood playground” -and he’d probably be really unhappy about going to the nursing home (if it’s the only Chol Hamoed trip). I would probably take the kids to something fun on Chol Hamoed and do the nursing home on Shabbos or Yomtov or in addition to the fun trip, but not instead of.
But I’m not sure I agree that Shmerel would be unhappy about going to the neighborhood park – that would depend on numerous factors such as how you have been raising your kids until now, does he have other friends going to the park, how old he is and how fun you are able to make it. A lot of the fun comes from the presentation. I also wouldn’t advise going to the NEIGHBORHOOD playground – that would not be an outing. The point is to get in the car and TRAVEL to a park you don’t usually go to.
Person1, shkoyach! I knew I’d like your topics.
Personally, I would say it’s better not to bring it into the Sukkah. There are certain things that it’s better not to bring into the Sukkah, and I would say that’s one of them. Only saying because you asked. This comment was only meant for the one asking – not for anyone else.
Health – I didn’t realize that being picky = not settling for stam a guy! In that case, everyone I know is picky, Boruch Hashem (and normal too!).
Actually, you’re wrong about its being a chiyuv for women to get married as I have already pointed out to you. But I am not going to argue with you about it, since I know from experience that there is no point in getting into an argument with you regarding halacha, since you are nowhere near being my “bar plugta” when it comes to halacha. That is true of most people since most people do not have my background in halacha, but the problem with you is that you won’t admit it when you are unable to understand something even after I have explained it to you many times so there is no point in continuing this discussion.
How can I meet my other half without going on a shidduch date, since I can’t do those?
Thebabbler +1.
I’ve been trying to understand these posts people have written about the effect of divorce on kids. I thought about it a lot, and looking at myself and my siblings, I really have no idea what they are talking about. I really thought about it, but I really can’t figure out what anyone is talking about. Certainly in terms of the girls.
I did hear part of a recording once by Dr. Pelkowitz talking about the effect of divorce on kids. He said that it very much depends on the age and gender of the kids. I don’t remember which ages were the most/least problematic. What I do remember is that there it is much more difficult for boys, in particular only or oldest boys.
L’maaseh, it is not clear-cut if kids are better off if their parents get divorced or stay together. For starters, there are different shitas on it and you can find research in both directions and they both make sense. At the end of the day, it really depends on many, many factors including the ages and genders of the kids, the kids’ personalities, what the parents are like, what the marriage was like, how complicated the divorce is, the custody arrangements, and most importantly how well the parents are able to manage the divorce in a way that is the least complicated for the kids (not bad-mouthing the other parent to or in front of the kids, not using the kids as pawns, keeping the kids out of the arguments, neither discouraging the kids from going to their father’s for Shabbos nor forcing them to do so, making sure their needs are fulfilled, etc.)
Aside from the fact that every case is different, it is almost impossible to ever know conclusively, if the kids were better or worse off. The only way to do so would be to know how things would have worked out the other way and obviously, you can never know that. You can try to compare families in which the parents chose to get divorced and those in which they didn’t, but it’s really an extremely inaccurate comparison. First of all, every situation is completely different. Second of all, by definition, there are going to be differences to start with between those families that chose divorce and those that didn’t. For one thing, on average, the couples that chose divorce probably had worse marriages to begin with.
I will just say that personally, in my experience, most of my peers who have the biggest problems come from homes with shalom bayis problems in which the parents did not get divorced, and most of my peers who have divorced parents turned out very well.