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Anon21, I’m sure she had a reason for saying that and it’s not really our business to get involved. I think it only adds to her pain, and it certainly doesn’t help anyone.
My train of thought was as follows:
1. Health said that women have a chiyuv to get married.
2. I said that that they don’t.
3. You asked me how it can be a Mitzvah and not a chiyuv.
4. I explained how it can be a Mitzvah and not a chiyuv.
I think the logic behind my train of thought is quite clear. Would you like to explain the logic behind your train of thought and how anything you wrote has anything to do with the above? (that was a rhetorical quesion.)
edited by the Shmiras HaLashon squad
Also, I don’t think a spouse is something to be prioritized altogether. “Ishto k’gufo.” Does one prioritize himself?
Wanting to get married is not a “stira” to hating women.
Abba_S – I’m generally not in the habit of giving people advice, but I would like to advise you to stop giving people advice. There are few people who are qualified to give advice at all, let alone to strangers whom they know nothing about. If such people exist, you are not one of them.
Personally, I only find your advice to me annoying which is why I haven’t bothered saying anything until now. But now there are people who are really getting hurt by your advice which is why I feel a need to say something.
I think that if someone feels a constant need to give advice to others, it might be a good idea for them to try to figure out why this is.
Helping your spouse is part of serving Hashem. A very important part, actually.
Obviously, it depends on the situation, and there is a reason most people don’t leave shul early to help their wives. But there could be a situation in which it is super-important that the husband help his wife and it’s more important than staying in shul.
For example, maybe he’s trying to avoid getting divorced.
So why would he have answered the above question?
“I’m no tzaddik by far, by anyone’s imagination”
You certainly have always sounded like it to me! Being careful about Shmiras HaLoshon as well as saying encouraging things to others are the qualities that render someone a tzaddik in my book.
“I was raised with the concept of sticks & stones may break my bones but names will never harm me.”
That’s a completely goyish concept. Go read any Sefer on the importance of Shmiras Haloshon, and you will see how much harm can be done through words! Or check out my new Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon thread once it starts getting filled!
How do you see that?
Joseph is married.
A Mitzvah does not necessarily indicate a Chiyuv. There is such a thing as a Mitzvah Sheaino metzuva v’oseh (A Mitzvah which you are not commanded to do but you do anyhow). This means that you are doing something praiseworthy and you receive a reward for it, but you are not OBLIGATED to do it.
Most of the Mitzvos that are incumbent on men but not women fall in the category of Mitzvah sheaino metzuveh v’oseh for women. I am not obligated to shake the Lulav & Esrog or sit in the Sukkah on Sukkos but if I do so, I am fulfilling a Mitzvah and do receive a reward. And if I’m Ashkenazi, I even make a bracha saying the words “And He commanded us” even though I personally was not commanded and have no obligation to do it.
There is also something called a “Mitzvah kiyumis” which refers to something that is not obligatory on anyone but if someone does it, they are doing a Mitzvah and receive a reward. For example, Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael falls in this category, and while it is not obligatory, one is fulfilling a Mitzvah if he does so.
Of course, one can argue that if something is a Mitzvah even if it’s not obligatory, why would someone choose not to do it? And I think that the answer would be that their priorities and “cheshbonos” would be different. For example, if there is a particular Mitzvah that I am not obligated in as a girl, and there may be hashkafa problems (i.e. feminism) with my doing it, then it would be a bigger Mitzvah not to do it.
In the case of marriage, according to halacha, a girl can decide that while it is a Mitzvah to get married and have children, it would not make sense for her to marry someone whom she does not want to marry (for whatever reason) in order to fulfill this particular Mitzvah. While a boy should also not marry someone whom he really does not want to marry,it seems to me that his reasons would have to be more substantial than a girl’s would since he does have an obligation to get married.
HuH? When I click on the above links, I stay right where I am!
fixed
I’m also curious – how do you post links to specific posts within a thread?
Click on the # sign under the post, then copy/paste from your browser’s address bar.
“(And don’t worry about mechila. It isn’t necessary.)”
Thanks. but I’m confused – where did the post go where I asked you for mechila? It seems to have disappeared! And it must have been there at some point, or how would you have known that I asked you for mechila? Did the moderators post it and then delete it?
“thanks lilmod, its sink or swim as you know:)”
yeah and I’ve drowned many times. I don’t do well in “sink or swim” situations.
the babbler – like I said, you are nicer than me :).
So I guess I was being presumptuous. Sorry about that, Joseph.
It’s interesting that you have found that “personality issues” are a more common reason for divorce than abuse issues. That was a “chiddush” to me. I think it is possible tht you are right because I have been finding that more and more lately when I check out divorces. I have a feeling that it may be a relatively recent phenomenon. And I think that it is possible that nowadays there are people who are getting divorced who perhaps shouldn’t be (although I have no idea what percentage, but I think 99% is way too high).
On the other hand, it is important to realize that sometimes when people speak of “personality differences” they might really mean abuse. I think it can be difficult sometimes to clearly differentiate between abuse and personality issues. After all, when people don’t get along, chances are that they are going to end up being abusive. Also, there is not necessarily a clear cut definition of abuse. I know people who I think are abusive and if they were married to me or almost anyone else, they would be considered abusive, but because they are married to people who are like them, it works.
It is time for truth: If you listen to the recording I mentioned above, that is precisely the question posed to Rav Leff. His response was that it’s a Mitzvah but not chiyuv.
Maybe their wives need a lot of help.
I hope that wasn’t rude – I was trying to say that as politely as I could, but I hope I’m not being too presumptuous. I apologize if I am.
In any case, I’m very happy to hear that you think he should give a Get in such a case, because that hadn’t been clear to me originally, and that’s what I (and I think others) were upset about.
“but don’t necessarily agree with your attribution of my assumptions.”
meaning?
the babbler – Amen.
Joseph – the babbler is nicer than me so she is not going to tell that you she was offended & wants an apology.
“Its the worst feeling to be trying to live a simple life not bothering anyone and hear that ridiculous gossip never dies.It was said in the context of trying to make me lose a job, otherwise I would just laugh at it.”
That’s tough.
“kaporas avonos:)”
Great attitude! You never cease to impress me!
okay, so I guess we are saying the same thing. You are talking about a conflict situation as well.
So everyone should make sure to have at least one argument with the person they are dating before they get engaged.
Thebabbler: this is your first post:
A fantastic and not at all.boring book you would appreciate is Living Emunah and Livimg Emunah 2. Down.to.earth and real.life examples. authour is Rabbi Dovid Ashear. and you can contact. me privately if the mods know how that can be done. Main thing : Youcan actually ask.Gd in.plain English.to help you believe in Him more, nothing is beyond Gd. All.prayers are respected.
This is the second post:
authOr. and excuse all those extra dots
Although, I’m not sure what you were asking?
that’s crazy!!! And annoying!!
“Everyone thinks they are a mentch, the key is to find out if they have a good heart. For example how do they response in a stressful situation.”
Actually, I’m not sure I agree. I don’t know if it’s fair to judge someone based on how they handle stress. People aren’t themselves in stressful situations.
I would say something similar but phrase it slightly differently. I would say that you can tell what someone is like based on how he deals with conflict. I knew someone who seemed like a wonderful person until she got into conflicts with people and then her real colors showed. On the other hand, I have known people whose middos really shone through when they were faced with conflict and dealt with it appropriately.
That is probably one of the most important things to know about someone before marrying them – how he/she handles conflict.
“your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong. “
Clarification: I did not mean to imply that you have to agree with me, or that my opinion of you is dependent on that, and I’m sorry for making it sound that way. My point was that I thought there is a misunderstanding and that we do agree on the basic issues.
I think that we agree on the following (please correct me if I’m mistaken):
1. Marriage is something very important, and people should not get divorced too easily.
2. When you get married, you should be fully committed to doing your utmost to make the marriage work and you should not be considering getting divorced.
3. If there are problems, the couple should do everything they can to try to work it out, and should not even think about divorce unless and until there really is no other option.
4. If the Rabbanim involved tell the husband that he should give his wife a Get (whether or not he can be forced to do so halachically), it would be a good idea for him to comply.
We disagree on the following:
1. you don’t seem to feel that he is doing something wrong by refusing to give the Get in such a case, and you even seem to feeel that she is doing something wrong by not trying to make the marriage work.
Even here, I don’t think we disagree on the principles involved. I think what we disagree on is what is actually likely to be going on here.
Your assumption seems to be the following: The husband obviously realizes the sanctity of a marriage and the importance of shalom bayis, and that is why he does not want to get divorced. His wife, on the other hand, clearly does not realize how important marriage is and that is why she is not willing to try to work things out. Therefore, he is really in the right for trying to hold on to the marriage and she is clearly in the wrong for wanting to break up the marriage.
I would guess that your assumptions regarding what is going on here are based on the fact that it is inconceivable to you that a husband would be abusive to his wife (and that’s why she wants to get divorced) or that he could possibly be motivated by anything other than a sincere desire to make the marriage work out. Additonally, you probably feel very strongly about shalom bayis and making a marriage work and feel that any relationship could be worked out and there is no reason to even think about divorce except in rare circumstances.
Which is beautiful.
I, on the other hand, had been assuming (rightly or wrongly) that in most (or at least many) such cases, the wife wants to get divorced because there is ABUSE and it has been going on for many years and she tried finding a way to work things out for many years, and they went to therapy and NOTHING has helped and her husband will continue abusing her if she remains married to him, which is the reason the Rabbanim recommended they get divorced. And if he refuses to give a Get even though the Rabbanim advised him to and even though their marriage can’t work out, it is out of spite, stubborness and/or selfishness.
My guess (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that you would also agree that in such a case, he should give her a Get. Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t imagine that someone like you would think that it is okay for someone to be abused. It just doesn’t seem your type.
So I think that our only point of disagreement was regarding what is likely to be going on here.
I would appreciate it if you would let me know if you agree with my analysis or not. Thanks!
“it ain’t over till the fat man sings.”
lol. I guess you are capable of political correctness :). Either that or just overly makpid on kol isha.
Reminds me of the story with a Godol (I think it was the Brisker Rav). When he was a kid, his father asked him who the smartest (or most learned) kid in his class was. He responded, “I don’t know how to answer. If I say that it’s me, I’ll be a baal gaavah. But if I say that it’s not me, then I’ll be a liar.” His father responded, “You are a baal gaavah and a liar!”
Joseph, I just checked out the website you had recommended to Lenny. It seems to have a lot of “bizui Gedolim” on it. I know that is something you feel strongly about, so I assume that you hadn’t noticed that part.
Is it because you personally know or were involved in cases like that, and therefore that is your immediate assumption? Is it because Rav Avigdor Miller apparently implied as much (although personally, I am still assuming his words may have been taken out of context)? Or is it for some other reason?
Joseph – I’m just curious as to where your views are coming from. You seem to assume that most of the time when the wife wants the divorce and the husband doesn’t, the wife does not really have a good reason for wanting the divorce and they should not get divorced.
My assumption on the other hand has always been that in most cases like that, the wife does have a good reason, and that usually the reason is that her husband is abusive. Even in those cases in which the issue is only “personality issues” (which I had always assumed was the minority of cases), I always assumed that they had tried to work it out and it was impossible to do so, and the husband was just being stubborn and selfish by refusing to give a get.
You, on the other hand, seem to assume that when the husband refuses to give a Get, it is not out of stubbornness or selfishness but rather because he feels that things can be worked out, and she is the one who is being selfish by refusing to try to work things out.
Both of us are making assumptions, and I have no idea who is right. There are probably some cases that fit your scenario and some cases that fit mine, and I have no idea which one is the more common case.
I am just curious as to where your views are coming from and why you are making the assumptions that you are making? Again, you are probably right in some cases and possibly even in most (although certainly not in all cases – such as Thebabblers – and possibly not in most), but I am curious as to why you assume that this is the most likely case?
thebabbler – my sympathies for all that you have been through. You sound like a wonderful person who has a had a really tough life and I hope Hashem grants you a wonderful year that will make up for everything that you have been through until now!!!
“Hungry, late for work, couldn’t come to an earlier minyan?”
Could be any on the above. Other possibilities I can think of are: upset stomach, not feeling well, has to go home to help wife, some other chesed or responsibility that has to be taken care of right away or some kind of medical condition that neccesitates eating or taking medication at specific times.
One time when I was at the makolet, the guy in front of me was really nasty to the cashier and criticized him for moving too slowly. The cashier was clearly very hurt, but held himself back from responding. I asked him for a bracha since there is an inyan to ask someone for a bracha if they were insulted and held themselves back from responding.
My main intention was really to make him feel good because I felt really bad for him, and I was REALLY impressed. Anyhow, he gave me a very nice bracha. It was around Rosh Hashana time, so he gave me a bracha that the next year should be better than the previous one. And it was!
I felt so bad for him. People should make an effort to be nicer to cashiers and bus drivers. They work hard, spend a lot of time and energy helping Am Yisrael, and put up with a lot of criticism and insults.
Shopping – it can be dangerous if done the wrong way. Obviously, you have to be careful and take the right precautions.
I am referring to a case in which you approach it the way you approach any shidduch – by using a shadchan and references, and trying to figure out who you know in common, and checking out the person carefully. If you do it that way, it is no different than Saw You At Sinai and Frumster which are both recommended by Rabbanim.
Also, I was referring to older singles. I would not recommend that “younger singles” meet that way. Dating when you are older is completely different than when you are younger.
Joseph and Lenny – Would YOU want to be married to someone who didn’t care whether or not you had other wives?? That doesn’t sound like a great relationship to me!
Shopping – very true. Also, some of us are more than 27 – not that you can’t be happy at any age, but you do have and need to have a different perspective at different ages. Also, as I pointed out, I think it must be much harder for boys.
Amen and thanks! But I am not the daughter of the coffee room!!! Maybe just saying Lilmod Ulelamaid FROM the Coffee Room would be better :). That’s how I daven for the people here. Or I just say The Babbler w/o mentioning the Coffee Room (I don’t think there are too many other people with that name so it’s probably not necessary to mention the CR!)
Have a Great Yom Tov and birthday!
Health – I’m confused. I was assuming he must be single if he responded to this question. Unless you think he’s serious about the polygamy thing, which I would find hard to believe.
Why would it be a problem to marry someone you met online assuming you check them out before you go out with them? I think it sounds better than meeting someone at a singles’ event which is very mekubal nowadays for older singles.
When people meet at a singles’ event, they are more likely to notice and be focused on the superficial aspects of other people (their appearance), but online, you can’t even see the other person, and what you notice about them is they way they relate to other people and their opinions, hashkafas and values (as well as other crucial things such as their spelling, grammar and vocabulary 🙂 )
“but rather was frustrated by your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong.”
It’s not. I apologize for implying that it is.
Happy Birthday!!! You should have a good kvittel and be inscribed for the best year ever!!! “Sheyimaleh Hashem mishalos libech l’tovah!”
A person has the power on his birthday to give brachos, so if you remember to give me a bracha on Shmini Atzeres, I would appreciate it!!
Joseph, I guess the moderators didn’t like my revised apology, but at least they let me inform you that it existed. I also wanted you to know that I had also expressed my appreciation for your apology which I thought was very nicely expressed and was extremely impressed by (I hope they let this go through!)
I hope there is connection between my first name and me! I definitely see a connection between my middle name and myself, although it’s debatable whether or not it’s a positive connection.