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Joseph – yeah, that’s what I thought. And that’s why my response was to quote from the OP to show that she/he is not a ben acher ben from the Chasam Sofer, so your response is not a good answer to Yekke’s question.
On second thought, when people don’t appreciate the importance and necessity of asking sheilahs, it may be anava that they need to work on more than daas.
Also, asking sheilahs too much is not generally a problem – the more likely problem is asking the wrong Rav.
“The people I am referring to are NOT JEWISH, they have jewish fathers, but are not Halachically jewish.”
I realized that. That is precisely why I wrote: “My point was that Goyim can be good people, and maybe the goyim who have “yichus” are better people as a result and/or more connected to G-d, etc.
Another possibility is that yichus only applies to Jews.”
“”And there are plenty of cases where children of Gedolim clearly did not live up to the parents, King Menashe is the most obvious example, but he is far from alone.
In fact right now there is an “Activist” who decided one day he was a woman and this person has lots of Yichus including from the Baal Shem Tov””
That is very true (at least the first point – I know nothing about the second, but will take your word for it), but it is not a proof that Yichus means nothing at all. It does prove that it doesn’t mean everything.
As I pointed out above, yichus is only meaningful when the descendants live up to their ancestors’ examples. And there are certainly many people who don’t. But those that do have an added boost from their inheritance. (at least that is how I always understood it).
“Lilmod Ulelamaid: That comment you quoted from me was intended to be a response to Geordie, not the OP.”
I thought it was a response to Yekke. I don’t see what it had to do with Geordie’s comment, which was a response to Yekke anyhow. Are you sure you hadn’t meant it as a response to Yekke?
“A sheilah had already been asked there.”
And many posters were telling the OP that a sheilah should not have been asked in the first place, and that he should neither listen to the answer nor ask again.
““Im ein daas, havdalah minayin.”
you dont need daas “ask sheilas” you need daas to make a differentiation between when a sheilah is appropriate and when it isnt. Of course it is sometimes appropriate to ask, but it often isnt and knowing that distiction requires daas.”Correct. And I pointed that out earlier in this thread. My point in my previous post was that while there are some people who tend to err on the side of asking too much, there seem to be many in the CR who tend to err on the other side.
You do have to ask a sheilah before calling the cops on a fellow Jew (with the exception of a case in which someone’s life is in immediate danger , only the police can help, and they must be called right away. which was not the case in that thread).“Because it’s ben acher ben from the Chasam Sofer but not from Rav Akiva Eiger.”
Please reread the OP:
“My great grandmother,Rochel Waisfogel was a grandaughter of the Chasam Sofer, but we have no clue who was her mother, whoever knew is not alive anymore for us to ask them. We only have the matzevah in which it’s written Rochel bas Gedalia, nechda of the Chasam Sofer, ”
Perhaps you meant to say, “bas achar bas’?
“Yichus really means very little, there are non jews with good Yichus (And I mean JEWISH Yichus)”
How does that prove that it means very little?
I actually wouldn’t be surprised if a relatively high percentage of geirim have “Jewish blood”
My point was that Goyim can be good people, and maybe the goyim who have “yichus” are better people as a result and/or more connected to G-d, etc.
Another possibility is that yichus only applies to Jews.
But either way, it doesn’t prove that yichus means nothing. (granted, you wrote “means very little”. It is possible that yichus does not mean so much, but I don’t think that is a good proof.)
Two nice ideas I have heard about yichus:
1. It’s better to have descendants who have yichus than to have yichus yourself.2. It’s like the number 100. Yichus is worth 0. But when you take two 0’s and put a 1 in front, it becomes 100 (the 1 being your own middos).
Yekke, I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread, but I think that thread definitely demonstrated that there are many people who need to work on their realization that it is important to ask sheilahs!
“Are you saying that as long as you descend from the Avos, having other gedolim along the route is irrelevant?”
No. (although I agree that boasting is childish – even worse, it demonstrates bad middos and shows that the yichus is meaningless since the person clearly did not inherit his ancestor’s middos.)
“Or are you just decrying the condescending attitude of Yichus?”
That was probably part of it. I think it was more about reminding people that being descended from the Avos is the greatest Yichus, so even if someone does not have “yichus”, they should realize that they actually have the greatest yichus.
When it comes to the Avos, it is about zchus avos which is based on the fact that the Avos are out “shoresh” and all of us have inherited their qualities and therefore have the potential to be like the Avos (which is why we are supposed to ask ourselves, “Masai yagiu maasei l’maasei avosai?”
When it comes to other Gedolim, I don’t think that is necessarily the case.
There is a halachic chiyuv of tochacha in certain circumstances, as pointed out above by Yekke (and maybe others), but how to do it is not necessarily so simple, and one has to really think carefully and evaluate the situation and the best way to deal with it. (and maybe ask a sheilah).
Giving tochacha the wrong way can be an aveirah and may be worse than not giving it.
(Frum?) Jews rarely shoplift, so the two things I would want to figure out are: 1. Who is this person, and 2.Why he is shoplifting?
Are we talking about someone with psychological problems, a kid-at-risk, a hardened criminal, a desperately poor person or a kid giving in to peer pressure? Is he a child, a teenager, or an adult? Do you personally know the person?
I think that how one deals with it would depend a lot on the answer to those questions.
Yekke, beautifully written! What you wrote is brought down somewhere – I think it’s in the Sifsei Chaim on Tefila but I’m not sure (if not,, then it’s either in Rav Leff’s sefer on Shemona Esrei or Rav Shwab’s sefer on Tefila)
After some of the things I have heard recently about kids-at-risk, I was thinking about how it’s such a bracha to be smart, and not something to be taken for granted.
Sometimes people (including myself) think, “I also had a hard life, but I never considered going off the derech, etc.”
Aside from the fact that one person’s circumstances and difficulties can never be compared to another’s for many reasons, how intellectually gifted one is and how capable one is at doing well in school (whether or not they do) make such a difference in a person’s intrinsic self-confidence, and therefore in how well they are able to handle things, no matter how difficult their life is or how lacking in self-confidence they think they are.LF – that’s so nice of you! Thanks! I’m actually in chu”l. right now, so the meeting might have to wait until we are in the same country.
I know a social worker who uses bitachon to help her patients who are dealing with anxiety. I imagine this is very common amongst Frum therapists. I think it works something along the lines of what Yitzymotcha described.
And I agree with you, Yitzy, you should never tell someone to have bitachon. That is one of the stupidest things you can say to someone who is expressing concern about something. Someone just did that to me recently, and I think it had the effect of making me more nervous.
If someone understands what bitachon is, they would realize that telling someone to have bitachon can’t possibly help them to have bitachon. It is an internal process that can only come from the person himself and can’t be imposed from the outside.
“Just in case you didn’t understand – WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get – it is a compliment, as far as the CR goes, meaning that you don’t come across like you’re trying to be someone you are not, and that you appear to be very genuine.”
Thank you.
“My open invitation to make contact with me is limited to the male faction of the CR. Curious as I may be to meet you all, I don’t feel it would be appropriate to socialize or “get to know” the females on board.”
True. Glad to hear you’re Frum.
Although in my case, it would probably be less of a problem since I’m probably old enough to be your mother, and my friends’ kids let me talk to them. Or at least some of them do – it depends on the kid. And some of them seem to go through different stages, and I always have to figure out what stage they’re at.
“Hey, I tried, didn’t I? (No one seems interested in me either.)”
Sorry Randomex, I had a scary experience indirectly connected to that thread so I’m trying to be more careful. Nothing personal – I know it wasn’t you (at least I’m fairly certain of that).
It wasn’t a joke. If the point of yichus is to announce that you have lineage that others don’t, that’s really obnoxious and not befitting a descendant of Avraham Avinu.
The idea of Yichus is to appreciate the fact that if you are descended from _____, it means that you have a certain potential as a result. Being the descendant of the Avos means that we have inherited the greatest potential possible and it is much more deeply ingrained than the potential one has as a result of being descended from more contemporary Gedolim.
My point was that we don’t value enough what it means to be descended from the Avos.
I get your point, but I’m not sure if you got mine.
I think I’d be uncomfortable shouting “Yekke” at the Kosel in the men’s section. Maybe you can wear a Yarmulka that says Yekke on it or something – Oh, I forgot, you don’t want to meet me anyhow cause I’m WYSIWYG… skip that.
“So you know there’s a creepy guy who’s on the CR,
but not what name they use?”Exactly. Although I don’t know for sure if he’s a poster – he could be a lurker, a moderator or an editor.
Gavriel +1
Aren’t there psychology methodologies that have to do with teaching people to view things rationally? And to internalize that so it changes the way you feel and act? Like CBT.
We all know that anxiety is connected to bitachon or lack thereof. But we may not always know how to immediately respond to people who argue that they are not connected.Or sometimes, in our anxiety, even we may think that they are not connected, even though we are morons. So this thread is to help y’all out, by showing you succintly, how they are connected.
Anxiety is an emotion and it is both rational and irrational.
Bitachon is an emotion and it is both rational and irrational.Anxiety is basically irrational.
Bitachon is basically rational.Working on being rational helps you to be less irrational.
QED
1. You need Daas to learn Torah regardless of whether or not you go to a Rav for everything. I always thought that the bracha is talking about the Daas needed to learn (and teach) Torah.
2. You need Daas to know when to go to a Rav.
3. You need Daas to know how to choose a Rav.
4. You need Daas to know that you should go to Rabbanim.
5. You need Daas to become the Rav that others are going to.
If you go back a few hundred years, then most Ashkenazi Jews today are descended from most Ashkenazi Jews in that generation, I think. I’m not sure how far you have to go back, but I don’t think it’s all that far when you take into account that every generation your ancestors double.
For that matter, they are all the descendants of Yaakov Avinu. Why don’t they mention that? What greater yichus can you have than that?
I’m very insulted. No one wants to meet me 🙁
The one thing you should be careful of is “backhanded insults” .
For example, don’t say to someone,”Wow, you look so nice today” in a way that implies that they don’t usually look nice and that you are surprised.Once, someone who hadn’t seen me in a while said, “You look so good. You didn’t used to look so good!”
Being that the person was who they were I wasn’t particularly insulted. 🙂 I just thought it was funny.
I think that it makes people feel good and therefore it’s a big Mitzvah (as long as they are the same gender as you or a little boy).
It doesn’t promote superficiality. If the person was not superficial to begin with, it won’t make them become superficial – they will just be happy that someone cares about them enough to say something to make them feel good. And if they are superficial to begin with, it won’t add to it. People are superficial (in this way) out of insecurity. By complimenting them, you help them to feel more secure.
The only way that I could see it encouraging superficiality is if you only compliment expensive items worn by Jappy people and never compliment people who are not Jappy.
If you are concerned about encouraging materialism, why not make it a point to compliment inexpensive items worn by non-materialistic people that are nice but not expensive?
WYSIWYG – I was about to ask you what this stood for, but as I copied and pasted it, I suddenly got it.
Funny – I was thinking that probably most people wouldn’t be too surprised if they met me, but it’s hard to know for sure.
And of course Winnie the Pooh and Mammel.e And I’m dying to meet all the wives (of the posters who have them).
CA – I also hope it wasn’t you. If it was, then you’d know it.
Rebshidduch, I wrote my post before yours was moderated (although I could see that you posted). I didn’t think of you at first because you haven’t posted recently (at least not that I saw), but as soon as I saw your name, I realized that you should have been first on my list.
How are you? What’s up? Are you still going out with the Yeshiva Bochur? Are you going to EY this coming year? You don’t have to answer if you think it’s TMI – I really just want to know how you are are doing.
Yekke, sorry for not responding to your last post. I have what to say, but I haven’t had a chance to yet. When I log on, it’s usually when I need to chill for a few minutes, and not necessarily when I have the time and mental energy for these kinds of threads, much as I enjoy them.
I appreciate your starting these kinds of threads and I hope to respond at some point, IYH. Just wanted to let you know that I haven’t forgotten about it. It’s such a mechaya to see a thread that has tochen and no fighting (bli ayin hara).
Oh, how could I forget about the heilige RebShidduch? And I really want to meet Johnny Appleseed too!! I wonder how she is – we haven’t heard from her in a while.I hope she’s ok. If you’re reading this JA, let me know how you are! I worry about you.
And of course I’d also want to meet Shopping.
” There are some posters who I am desperate to see what they are really like.”
Which ones? Who would you want to meet?
I often think that it would be cool to meet the other posters, and I’m always sort of hoping that I will, but at the same time, I am worried that it would be a big disappointment and ruin the way I relate to them. I think that there’s a good chance that many people would seem very different in real life, and when that happens, it makes it hard to relate to people the same way.
Gofish, Yekke, Lightbrite, RebYidd, DY, Meno,,Geordie, and Golfer. Actually I would probably want to meet almost everyone besides for one person who is really creepy but I don’t know who it is (pretty sure it’s none of the above though.)
Another very important – you and others are assuming that the Rav is an idiot who doesn’t know how to add 2 +2. Of course, it’s possible that he’s an idiot, but it’s also possible that he knows more about the situation and/or how to deal with it than you do.
The OP stated that he trusts this Rav (in general) and that he is widely respected in the community.
Why take the OP’s feelings about the situation at face value and not his feelings about his Rav?
“If you see smoke dont know what it is (and cant investiagte for whatever reason) what do you do?
It is the same here. as you correctly pointed out.I think your theoretical situation may need more details. I don’t think that you should call the firemen every time you smell smoke. For example, if there is a strong likelihood that your neighbors are making a barbecue and it is highly unlikely that it’s a real fire, but you are the nervous type who calls the firemen every time you smell smoke and it always turns out to be nothing, then no, you should not call the fire station on Shabbos.
All these cases depend on how big of a safeik we are talking about. As I already pointed out (although it wasn’t up yet when you last posted), there are different levels of safeik and one would have to determine how big a safeik we are talking about.
But in any case, even if you were right and you call the fire station every time you smell smoke, it is important to remember that there is a big difference between that case and our case. In the case of fire on Shabbos, there is no time to ask a sheilah. That is why you don’t ask.
But when there is time to ask, you do ask. Someone in my family once had a medical situation on Shabbos that my mother thought might necessitate taking a taxi to Terem. So my mother sent me to ask a Rav. The Rav sent me to a local Frum doctor, but told me that if he’s not home, we should take the taxi to Terem. I went to the doctor who told me we don’t need to go to Terem on Shabbos.
The point is that if there is time to ask and get a clear answer, you ask. In this case, there is time. The OP can take the same time he is taking to post and read the answers in order to ask a Poseik.
2. I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently. Ok, maybe that’s obvious. But my point is that I think that some people, when they hear the word, “shrieking” ,it sets off major warning bells and they assume that there is immediate and clear danger or at least a very strong possibility of such.
“Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention
The OP wrote (a few times) that he is not sure that something is going on. He is not sure if this case necessitates police intervention. His Rav is sure that this case does not. They are the only two people here who have any information. None of the posters here do. All we know is that an anonymous poster is nervous and his Rav is sure that police intervention is not needed. Yes, his Rav could be wrong, and yes, we have no idea who his Rav is. But why assume that his Rav is wrong and that the police should be called? No one here knows anything about the situation; how can anyone possibly be poskening that he should call the police?
This is a situation that calls for a psak halacha from someone who knows more about the situation than anyone here possibly can. No one here has any right to posken that he is allowed to call the police. The most you can do is to tell him to ask someone else. However, even that only makes sense if the second person is more authoritative than the first and if he tells him that he spoke to his Rav and what his Rav said.
I agree with Mentch that speaking to his neighbor would be a good idea (certainly before calling the police), as long as he is comfortable doing that. The OP did already mention that he was planning on doing that – I wonder what happened with that?
Ubiquitin & Avi & whoever else it’s relevant to: While you are correct that one is mechalel Shabbos even for Safeik pikuach nefesh, it has to be a certain level of safeik. This came up once in another thread a while back. I think someone raised the possibility that if you see a lost purse on Shabbos, because there might be medicine in the purse that the person will die if he doesn’t have, so therefore it ‘s a safeik pikuach nefesh.
Obviously, that is a very small safeik so we are not mechalel Shabbos. There are halachos regarding how big a safeik has to be in order to be considered safeik pikuach nefesh. We don’t call a doctor on Shabbos every time that someone is sick.
Likewise, there are halachos regarding a situation like this. That is why we have poskim. If you don’t trust your Rav, ask another one. But it requires a psak halacha. And no one here is qualified to give it since we don’t know the situation.
And Ubiquitin, as I pointed out before, the OP said that he has no idea if this is something that requires police intervention. In his last post, he wrote that he doesn’t know that there is physical violence going on. It is entirely possible that he is the nervous type.
It shouldn’t take any more time to call a recognized poseik than it does to get advice from anonymous posters. And you will feel more at peace if you know that you asked Daas Torah and are following halacha.
No time to respond to everything right now, but I want to make a couple of important points:
1. I wrote that not all smoke or fire necessitates calling the fire. Some posters argued with me that it does. I think that you were talking about different situations than I was. I have witnessed fires that did not necessitate calling the fire department, sometimes even if hadn’t been Shabbos, and certainly if it was Shabbos.
We once had a Chanuka Menora go on fire on Shabbos – someone stood next to it to make sure that the fire didn’t get out of hand and necessitate chillul Shabbos (it didn’t).
Another time, there was a fire in the park near my house (not on Shabbos). I called the fire department and knocked on the doors of all the people in my apt. building telling them there was a fire and they should leave their houses. No one left their house or seemed at all concerned besides me, and the firemen took at least 20 minutes to arrive. This was in Israel where grass fires are fairly commonplace and rarely dangerous.
” but it’s not something that warrants police intervention.”
“How can you be sure, the OP seems pretty conflicted, and is sounds like he suspects that police intervention is warranted.”You misunderstood. That clause was a continuation of:
” There is a definite possibility that someone is not treating someone else in the family they way they should be” The words, “there is a definite POSSIBILITY” were going on the second half of the sentence.I was saying that it is POSSIBLE that this is a case that does not call for police intervention EVEN IF someone is in fact treating someone else badly.
As I already wrote, the police can cause problems for people. There is a reason that his Rav told him not to call the police. Yes, it is assur to call the police if it’s not warranted, and I’m sorry if you can’t understand that.
Regarding your “fire” example, that is a clear-cut case of pikuach nefesh, and we know that the halacha is to call the fire department, and we know it has to be done right away, and we know that the fire department is the only place that can help.
As another poster pointed out, if you hear someone shout, “put that gun away” it is pikuach nefesh and you should call the police. But hearing someone screaming is not necessarily pikuach nefesh and does not call for calling the police. You don’t call the police every time you are scared. If you did, I would be calling the police a hundred times a day. Apparently, the Rav (who knows more about the situation than you do) did not consider this to be a situation that necessitated calling the police.
A better example to your fire example might be if you smelled smoke on Shabbos. You don’t run to call the fire department until you’ve investigated if it’s really a fire and if it’s life-threatening. Not all smoke is caused by fire, and not all fires are life-threatening.
“I’m not sure if any competent rav would really advise to do nothing”
He didn’t say that nothing should be done – he said that he is taking care of it. He clearly felt that he was in a better position to deal with it than the OP is. As I think someone already pointed out, it sounds like he might know more about the situation than the OP does.
“a Rav is not infallible the only concern should be is there someone who could be in danger nothing else matters.”
That is exactly why the OP is trying to figure out if the fact that he heard someone shrieking means that someone’s life is in danger. And if this Rav is in fact the best person to handle the situation.
Again, there is a reason why the Rav is the OP’s Rav and not the other way around. Yes, he is not infallible and he may be wrong, but he also may be right.
Learning is a privilege, a right, and an obligation.
“What is the motivation for the Rav’s ruling maybe he does not want there to be an issue so he prefers to put blinders on and hopes something wont happen”
Possibly, but it’s also possible that he might know that this is a case that does not warrant calling the police. After all, there is a reason that the OP called him; he wasn’t sure whether or not the case warranted calling the police, and he thought that this Rav was a good person to ask.
“I think everyone should have a big house on an acre of land”
+1
lol. Shkoyach, Lightbrite! Your probably made Gavriel’s day.
“If you can’t stand someone on a date, that’s a red flag.”
Tell that to all the shadchanim who tried (and often succeeded) to get me to keep going out with guys whom I couldn’t stand. Maybe that’s why I hate dating so much.