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To clarify my last post:
women/girls nowadays are somewhat insecure about their role/position in Judaism, either because of bad experiences or because of the way things were taught or not taught or because of a girl’s inherent nature to be more passive/less arrogant.
When someone is starting off feeling that way, they will read things differently. I know that because I used to be that way.
If someone is coming from the starting point that it is obvious that women are people and should be shown respect and not put down, etc. they understand things (and expect to be understood) differently.
I think that is what is going on here. I have also seen this from other posts of Joseph’s where I think some misunderstood his intent.
Thanks Joseph for clarifying!
I think that a lot of the misunderstandings here have to do with people’s starting points. Everyone starts off with things that are a given and things that aren’t and therefore understands things within that context.
Lavender, after reading your last post, this really sounds like it is about him. It sounds like there may be something he doesn’t want you to know about him, so it is probably better to stop trying to find out and just to be thankful that it ended (hard as it is to do so).
Joseph, is your point that men and women have different roles (and possible even that woman’s role is “lower” although it’s debatable what that means exactly) or is your point to put down women?
Is there a shadchan? Can you speak to him/her?
That must have been a really upsetting experience! I have never experienced anything like it,but I am sure I would be heartbroken! Even to the extent that I have ever experienced such a thing on a much, much smaller scale, I was heartbroken.
I am not sure you will ever get a real answer. It sounds like there is a good chance that this has more to do with him than with you (which is
why you may never find out the reason).
If so, Hashem may have just spared you from a catastrophe. Of course, it’s probably hard to be happy about it right now.
Im Yirtzeh Hashem, you should be zoche to find someone much, much better!
“The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.”
Not according to what he wrote in his last post:
“Additionally, today’s society in the secular world, and to an extent it has creeped in among some who call themselves frum, operates under the false assumption that there is little or no differences between the abilities and natural functions and duties of men and women. Quoting the various citations from Tanach, Mamrei Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim disabuses that popular notion.”
Joseph, care to comment? (so we can stop talking about you).
“Why do you assume he doesn’t know that?”
Because he obviously would have phrased things differently if he realized that he would be able to give his message over more effectively that way.
He had a message he is trying to get across as he wrote in his last post. If he thought/knew there is a better way to get it across, he obviously would have done so.
The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.
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btw, what is a canard?
Joseph, I just saw your last comment after I wrote my last comment.
I thought that was probably your reasoning and where you were coming from. I know from other things you have written that that seems to be one of your main objectives in the things that you write – that you feel (correctly so) that most people are too influenced by modern society and their hashkafos are coming from western society as opposed to the Torah. And your objective is that everyone’s hashakafos should come from the Torah. Which is a very important objective one (probably the most important objective that a person can have).
However, I am not sure that that relevant here. I think you should read my last post and think about it. I don’t think that Gofish is coming from a messed-up goyish hashkafa that there are no differences between men and women.
The reason why Feminism is less of an issue in the Bais Yaakov/Yeshivish world is because in the Bais Yaakov world they teach girls about the importance of their tafkid, and they don’t make them feel that it is a negative thing to have a different tafkid, so Bais Yaakov girls generally don’t have a problem with the fact that men and women have different tafkidim.
Feminism is a bigger problem amongst the more liberal Modern Orthodox because no one has ever explained to them the greatness of women’s role so they look at it as “less” and “bad” and to them all differences between men and women are something bad. If they understood the gadlus of women’s role, they would not feel that way.
I remember once when I was working in a very modern feminist seminary, and a girl asked me why in Aishes Chayil, it talks about the husband (“noda bashearim b’aalah”). I thought that she was probably coming from a feminist perspective and I was a bit nervous about what her reaction to my answer would be, but she actually was very impressed and thought it was beautiful.She had no problem with it – it was just a perspective she had never heard before.
A lot of times it’s about presenting things the right way. I’m not talking about apologetics -the Bais Yaakovs have no problem explaining to girls about the gadlus of their tafkid, and helping them to feel uplifted by it and not the opposite.
Joseph, I know I’ve said this before, but I think it’s important to point it out again. I think that sometimes you say things that can be misunderstood and taken out of context. It is important to think about who you are speaking to and how they are likely to hear what you are saying.
I know that personally, the things you are saying don’t bother me now at this stage of my life, because I am hearing them within a certain context and worldview that I did not have when I was younger. However, if I had heard your words when I was younger, I would have heard them very differently and been much more upset than Gofish is.
I think the same ideas can be given over differently.
Why do you assume he doesn’t know that?
Joseph, I don’t have time to go through all your sources now, but one very important point that should be made is that all these sources are talking about women’s role in this world. It should be clear that this has nothing to do with her reward in Gan Eden or her worth as a person and as an Eved Hashem.
At the end of the day, each person’s tafkid is to serve Hashem. We each have different ways of doing that, but we are all partners in serving Hashem period. That is the only thing that matters. And anyone who is overly interested in proving whose tafkid is “more important” is missing the point.
LF – well-said, as always!
Big Golem – in the Bais Yaakovs they don’t describe it in the same terms as Joseph is. In fact, in the Bais Yaakovs, they very much empower and uplift girls.
Yes, they teach that a woman’s main tafkid is to be a wife and mother but they explain that this is because of her high level that she was chosen for this very important tafkid, and they explain how it is part of her Avodas Hashem.
They also teach that even though this is her main tafkid, it is not her only tafkid.
Benignuman – just want to make it clear that I was not arguing about the halacha. I was just pointing out that I felt that that sentence had to be clarified. I don’t know the statistics, but it seems to me that most people who smoke do not die from smoking before the age of around 70 which is considered a normal life span, so if one is going to say that 50% of people who smoke die from smoking it has to be clarified that what you mean is that they lose a few years of their life (in most cases). If that is the case, it may not be in such a different category from any other unhealthy activity (as opposed to a dangerous activity).
Just to be clear, I am not recommending that anyone smoke! Just being “medayek” in the loshon.
Gofish – I meant it as a general answer.
Sorry, I had no idea this was an old Minhag tznius amongst Yidden! I can only think of one person I know who does this and he is davka from a very modern background.
To me, it davka felt less tznius, although I realized his point was to be more tznius.
Is it really an old minhag?
Joseph – I don’t think that’s what Gofish meant by her comments. She was simply pointing out that there clearly has to be a deeper meaning to Chazal’s comments. She only said this because the truth of Yiddishkeit is so obvious to her that she realized there must be something deeper going on here.
I am also interested in hearing the answer to Gofish’s question. I don’t mean it in an attacking way – I just think it’s interesting that you are always quoting certain types of sources to make certain types of points- and I am curious as to why that is. I wonder if you have stopped to think about why that is. (and again I’m not attacking – just questioning).
“Joseph, why do you so fiercely feel the need to assert male supremacy? Why do you feel threatened by women and feel like you always need to always be in control of women, prove some contrived superiority of men, and constantly write leading questions like this? Why?”
Ditto. I’ve been wondering the same myself. I can debate your sources with you and the accuracy/inaccuracy of your comments (when I have time to actually look up all the sources), but I think that Gofish’s question may be a better one.
The issue that I’ve been struggling with for years is what to call my friends’ husbands. I used to deal with it by not calling them anything, and just trying to get their attention. But that can be awkward and difficult. So I finally started calling them “Rabbi” (by itself, w/o a last name.)
YY- I didn’t realize that we were talking about a situation in which the husband is actually speaking to his wife. I thought that we were talking about a situation in which the husband is speaking to someone else ABOUT his wife.
I used to have a friend whose husband would always refer to his wife as “my wife” when he was speaking to me. Personally, I didn’t like it. I felt that it made sense if he was speaking to another guy that he might feel like it’s inappropriate to use his wife’s name. But if he is speaking to a female, I davka felt like it was inappropriate to say “my wife”.
YY- I think they eat it – that is why they are throwing it -so obviously it is not so ruined that it’s inedible, so there is on “baal tashchis”.
Gofish – I don’t think that there is anything being done that is an aveira.
That sounds rude. I like Rebbetzin better. Most people I know call their wives by their first names, but if they didn’t they would say Rebbetzin not “listen up”.
MA – careful about the Loshon Hora here… We are supposed to be melamed zchus on others, not to find fault.
I think the point is that if it’s their established Minhag, it’s not an aveira.
More importantly, Meno is correct and it’s not assur to throw food – only bread and food that will get destroyed and hence, wasted.
Gofish – I really think Joseph was thinking. Obviously, the men don’t need to be supported in Olam Haba.
Also, I am wondering if Neshamas even have genders in which case the whole question is irrelevant. (Actually, it’s irrelevant anyhow, but that would make it more so.)
Abba_S : I find your comments insensitive and offensive as well as iirrelevant. No one glorifies the single lifestyle, but if someone can’t have children, then they have to be able to accept that and find meaning in life in other ways, and that is a very insensitive comment.
“Maybe her purpose may not necessarily be solely tied to being an eizer knegedo to one particular man, but perhaps an eizer knegedo to mankind?”
Definitely true. I had thought of that. I didn’t mention it because I was afraid of being misunderstood, but it’s true.
what does “herr nur” mean?
They say “my wife” or “my husband”.
I’m pretty sure that Baltimore is unrelated.
iacisrmma – good point!
The Queens Chofetz Chaim might be an option too, but the person I spoke to thought the out-of-town ones would be better for you.
I think tznius is very important, and I wish boys would make it more of a priority in shidduchim. Maybe that would encourage girls to dress more tzniusly. After all, the reason why girls don’t dress tzniusly is because of peer pressure and caring how people think of them. If boys would prefer to go out with girls who dress tzniusly, then the peer pressure would work the other way and the girls would WAMT to dress tzniusly. At least, that’s what I would think.
And yes, I think that dressing tzniusly can be an indicator of Yiras Shamayim, even more than learning is. Someone can easily learn Torah and still be lacking Yiras Shamayim. He might learn because he enjoys it or it makes him look good and feel good about himself. But dressing tzniusly is something that usually takes a certain amount of Yiras Shamayim since most girls find it hard to some extent (some find it very hard). Also, the peer pressure for girls is often to NOT dress tzniusly, whereas for boys, the peer pressure is to YES learn.
Tznius is not about outer appearance. It’s an indication of what is going on inside the person. A girl dresses tzniusly precisely because she realizes it’s her pnimius (inner self) that is important and not her chitzonius (outer appearance).
Is the Baltimore Chofetz Chaim part of the Chofetz Chaim system or does it just have the same name? I had thought that it wasn’t but I’m really not sure. Does anyone else know?
ZD, thanks!
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Lightbrite – I don’t think Sara Schnirer’s main tafkid was either being a wife or a mother. And there are women who never get married (and according to “statistics” if you believe them, it is impossible for everyone to get married) – yet they still have a tafkid in life. I am not married yet and don’t know if I ever will be, but I think I still have a tafkid in life. Even if you want to assume that I will get married eventually, I still have been single for the past many years and I don’t think that means that I haven’t had a tafkid all these years. And it is entirely possible that I will never get married, and that doesn’t mean that I have no tafkid in life.
I do agree with you that being a mother and/or wife is the most important role for a woman (I’m not sure which of the two is more important, but I do think you make an interesting point on that topic), but I just think that one has to be careful how one says such things, because not everyone gets married.
Rav Leff said that a woman’s most important tafkid is being an “Aim B’yisrael” and this can be accomplished in many ways. For example, Sara Schnirer didn’t have any children, but she was the mother of all of Am Yisrael. Anyone who is involved in Chinuch or Kiruv in any way can be considered a “mother”.
It would be harder to say that there is any way to be a wife without being married, so I like Rav Leff’s vort because it can apply to anyone.
Guys, please check out my Shmiras Haloshon thread!
1. If you think that something assur was done in the video, it is assur to tell anyone about it.
2. It is a bigger aveira to tell anyone about it then it was to have done the original action you are telling people about.
3. It is assur to speak badly about groups of people.
Hatzlacha!
YY – there’s a branch in Brooklyn called Tiferes Yisroel.
ARWSF- I have noticed that the moderators seem to be more responsive lately, and I also appreciate it. I particularly appreciate it when they explain why they are deleting something! Thanks mods!
I’m glad to hear that you think it was meant tongue-in-cheek. I know I’m gullible, but it really seemed to me that some of the posters here were serious. And I’m still not convinced. Are you sure that no one is being serious?
Beningnuman – “I have seen some rabbonim argue that Rav Moshe would agree that smoking is assur today because the chances of it causing a smoker’s death is over 50%”
I think this statement requires clarification. It is pretty unusual(if not unheard of) for someone to drop dead from smoking. What you probably mean is that it causes people to die at a younger age than they would have otherwise in 50% of cases. But I would think that that would put it in a very category than something dangerous that could cause you to die on the spot. There is a big difference between doing something that can cause you to lose your life on the spot and doing something that might lead to your getting sick and being nifter at the age of 70 or 80 instead of 90 (which is what I think happens to most people who smoke).
“lilmod, there is an inyan among many frum families where a husband will not call his wife by her name when non-family are present.”
I think third person is pretty unusual though. It was the first time I ever remember someone speaking to me in third person.
Joseph – that sounds reasonable in theory, but in practice it is not always possible. Many people think that getting married should be the #1 priority, but l’maaseh, it can’t be. Earning a parnassah is more of a priority than getting married. I can’t just decide that I am going to stop working because I need time for shidduch hishtadlus, because meanwhile the rent needs to be paid and I need to eat.
And the same is true to a certain extent with some of the other things you mentioned. Maybe getting married is the most important thing, but meanwhile I am single, and I need to have friends and to be happy and functional and t/f to spend at least some time on socializing, etc.
And as Yeshivabochur pointed out, the difference between hishtadlus for shidduchim and for other things is that you don’t see direct results of your hishtadlus, and with the other things you usually do. If I call a friend to shmooze for an hour or three, I will have gotten something out of it (unless she doesn’t answer the phone, in which case I will have only lost one minute). If I go to work, I will most probably get paid. But if I go on a date, all I gain is a lot of wasted time, wasted energy and extra stress in my life.
That’s one of the reasons I would prefer to actually DO something on a date; that way I would at least have fun and I would actually gain something from the date even if I don’t like the guy, but most people don’t do things on dates.
LF – Amen! Shkoyach! I hope you don’t mind that I reposted your post. I just thought it was important to put it here, because I was a bit bothered by the way those maamerei chazal were being quoted and I was concerned that others could misunderstand and it could be a Chilul Hashem. So I thought it was important to have some explanation.
One thing that I would like to add to your last post. From things that I’ve learned, it does seem that davening is a VERY important part davka of a woman’s tafkid, since women’s davening has a power that a man’s doesn’t. She doesn’t need to spend hours davening, and perhaps it’s the informal, heartful Tefillos that she says while she is busy with child care and housework that are the most important, but her Tefilos are definitely of utmost importance.