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Health – if they had been willing to get married at 28 to a girl who was 25 instead of saying she was too old for them, they would have had kids. Now they are in their 50’s and it is less likely they will have kids. If they keep finding reasons to say no to people, they will continue getting older and be less likely to have kids, and even less likely to get married at all, since most girls don’t want to marry a guy that age who has never been married.
I’m not judging (at least not the people, just their actions). I understand that people have issues and hangups, etc, and they don’t choose to have problems. I’m just pointing out that it is a problem.
Joseph – true, I have to find the source. But meanwhile, I was just coming to Person1’s defense and pointing out that he probably has heard the same sources I have (either directly or second-hand) and that is where he is coming from. This is the opinion that is usually quoted and accepted in most of the Torah world and that is where he was coming from.
“but the definition of a frum Jew is based on shmiras shabbos, not on skirt length.”
As far as I know, the word “Frum” is a made up word and has no real meaning in Halacha. That is why I don’t understand the sentence, “One is allowed to speak Loshon Hora about not-Frum Jews”. In addition to the fact that according to the Chofetz Chaim, this is not true, one has to define his terms. The word Frum is not used anywhere in halachic literature.
In the quote that I brought from the Chofetz Chaim, he refers to people who are over on ANY halacha that is well-known in the community. I would think that this would refer to any girl who is considered “Frum” and had a Bais Yaakov or seminary education yet wears short skirts. I would think that it would not include most “not-Frum” people since people in their circles are not aware of halacha.
However, it seems to be referring to those who are sinning in order to rebel and not out of “taivah” or “ignorance” so it seems neither should be included.
I am not trying to be judgmental. What I am objecting to is the concept of putting a “not-Frum” Jew in a lower category than a “Frum” Jew who routinely ignores Halachos that he knows about. Why should the “not-Frum” uneducated Jew be considered worse from a halachic perspective than the Frum educated Jew who does not keep halacha?
In terms of many Frum Jews falling in this category, that was actually my point. However, many people do not. I could be wrong (I hope I’m not) but I don’t think that there is any clear cut halacha that I completely ignore. But maybe I’m wrong.
“Thank you for all the answers. I know that all these are just speculations and we will never know the real answer, but after re-reading his last messages before breaking up and reading what you wrote here, I think he really love(d) me and only broke up because he wanted to protect me from something. So I don’t think anything bad about him.”
Lavender, great attitude! Sorry that your posts got a little lost here in the off-topic disscussion.
“if all the single men get married and there are still single women?”
Then there will be single women. Or they will marry the guys who get divorced or become widowers r”l.
Frankly, I don’t think all the single men are getting so fast. I see guys who just keep getting older and older and are still single, and some of them still even have the same ridiculous age limits.
What is it (and don’t say a parade)?
LF – 1. As pointed out before, you are wrong about point #1. Perhaps if one could be CERTAIN that she wouldn’t believe him, you would have a point. But in this case, there is absolutely no reason to be certain that she would not believe him. Why shouldn’t she believe him?
In any case, he obviously thinks that she could believe him – the whole reason he said this was in order to convince her that it’s true and get her to believe that it’s true!!! So he can’t then turn around and say that he doesn’t really think she will believe him anyhow!
2.You are confusing things. I think that what you are trying to say is that if I am not certain that he is speaking Motzi Shem Ra, I can’t accuse him of speaking Motzi Shem Ra. Even if that is true, that is not the case here. The doubt does not lie in whether or not he is speaking Motzi Shem Ra.
If someone says something that he does not know with certainty that it is true, he has been over on Motzi Shem Ra EVEN if we find out afterwards that it happened to have been true. The fact that he said something that he did not know was certainly true makes it Motzi Shem Ra whether or not it was in fact true.
So he is definitely over on Motzi Shem Ra and I have an OBLIGATION to tell him so (see my Shmiras Halashon thread).
I hope that was clear. I know the grammer was a bit off, but my logic wasn’t. Let me know if you understand what I wrote or not.
I just saw your quotes about “mechalilei Shabbos”. I will have to look them up when I have a chance.
“I meant no, because she doesn’t know it’s an aveirah, she thinks it’s a chumra which the right wingers are claiming is obligatory.”
I was referring to people who do know, such as any Bais Yaakov graduate and any girl who attended just about any Orthodox Seminary.
“Either that, or struggles with her yetzer hora.
Either way, she doesn’t lose the status of amisecha, unlike a m’challel Shabbos b’farhesya.”
From the Chafetz Chaim, I quoted I don’t see why there would be a difference between somoene wearing a short skirt vs. someone who is mechalel Shabbos. He refers to someone who is over on something that everyone knows is assur. Adraba, she would be more likely to fit in that category. Everyone in her circles knows that it’s assur to wear short skirts, but in the circles that the not-Frum guy lives in, people don’t know that you are not allowed to be mechalel Shabbos.
What might keep her in the category of “amisecha” is the fact that she is doing it out of “taivah” not in order to rebel against Hashem. The same is true of the “mechalel Shabbos.”
So he is no worse than her, and maybe even better.
“Person1, you simply don’t like the halacha and prefer the pop-culture (and non-Jewish) concept of live and let live.”
It’s not coming from the pop-culture. Most Frum people hold this way. I’m not 100% sure of the source – I think it’s the Chazon Ish – but it is how most Frum people hold. There are plenty of sources to be found regarding how we are to relate positively to not-Frum people and judge them favorably. You may have a different opinion and you may even be able to find sources to back up your opinion (although I haven’t seen any of them yet) but that doesn’t mean that someone else’s opinion is coming from the pop-culture.
I want the ice cream. Ice cream tastes just as good in the winter.
Is it in Flatbush?
“Shisha Sidrey Mishna”
kesher?
Tight could be lack of awareness, but I agree with you about short (if it’s clearly too short). In fact, I had written a really long post about that, but it was deleted.
Why do you think he doesn’t know what it means? I think all xians believe in it and they are a lot of people. There are more xians in the world than polygamists, so he has a valid point.
So you mean “yes” not no. She is committing an aveira that she knows is an aveira.
“In an effort to be halachically correct, how many lives have been altered in a terrible way?”
No one’s life can ever be “altered in a terrible way” through keeping the halacha. There are situations in which a person is allowed to say something and situations in which one is not.
Everything comes from Hashem. He is the one who makes everything happen. We just have to follow His rules. He made the rules and He determines the results of your actions. He will never make you lose out for following His rules, although it may seem like it sometimes.
Even if not speaking Loshon Hora will seem to lead to someone’s having a bad marriage, one must believe that he will not lose out ultimately for having kept the Halacha.
That being said, generally speaking, keeping the Halachos of Loshon Hora also includes speaking when you are required to as well as refraining from speaking when you are not allowed to. So generally speaking, if you really do know for a fact that it would be harmful for person A. to marry person B, you are probably required to do so.
Of course each situation is different, and one must ask a sheilah. But the fact is that it is generally almost impossible to know how things will turn out. There have been many marriages that seemed perfect and ended in disaster and many marriages that one would have thought would be disastrous and they turned out to be nearly-perfect. There are plenty of people with serious issues who have wonderful marriages. There is usually no way for anyone to know how things will turn out.
On the other hand, if you know that one of the persons really has a very serious problem that would clearly make him unfit to marry the other person, you probably do have an obligation to say something and to try to prevent the person from marrying him (but you have to make sure your facts are correct, and you should probably ask a sheilah before saying anything).
dovrosenbaum – I have to say I laughed when I read your post! That’s a really unique way of looking at it. Well, I hope it helps in any event.
I think there are shadchanim who specifically deal with people who have issues. Obviously, a lot of seichel and caution has to be used in figuring out what issues go with which other issues. It may not make sense to set up someone who suffers from depression with someone else who does, but let’s say the girl suffers from depression and the boy is emotionally very healthy but has other issues that are making shidduchim difficult for him, he may be willing to marry this girl. I knew a shidduch like that that worked very well.
Of course, there are some people whose problems render them unfit for marriage altogether, so if someone knows that, they shouldn’t set them up.
It seems (as per the halachos quoted above) that the shadchan is halachically obligated to use caution and not suggest a shidduch if he has a real reason to believe that it will be harmful to one of the parties.
LF- the thing is that the Moderators had originally said that they didn’t want to post her “challenges” as they would be LH. You claimed that you were going to defend them, so it would not be LH (and personally, I had, and still have confidence in your ability to do so, as did the Mods.)
I understand that someone could change their mind. But I hope that you are able to come up with a satisfactory response, and if you can’t, I hope the moderators delete the post.
Abba_S:
1. They posted your comment despite the fact that it was Motzi Shem Ra, so you can’t claim media bias (at least not in the direction that you want to claim it.)
2. They also posted your above post even though it contains sheker about the Torah (as explained in #3).
3. Regarding point B, this is completely false. The halacha is that something is considered Motzi Shem Ra unless it is CLEARLY TRUE. You are not allowed to say anything negative about someone unless you know that it is definitely true. You had stated in your original post that the guy was not dating for marriage. You DO NOT know that; hence, it is motzi shem ra. I provided the source for this Halacha above. You do not have a source for your statement.
4. Regarding point a, I already pointed out to you that there is at least one person who knows who the guy is.
5. There is absolutely no source for point c.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14334&st=&pgnum=25&hilite=
very proud of myself that I finally figured out how to do that!
Unless someone is absolutely sure that not-Frum people are not to be considered as tinok shenishba, I think that it is assur to let oneself think of them that way. We have an obligation to love them and think favorably of them as we do any Jew.
Also, I don’t think the terms “frum” and “not-frum” the way we use them today necessarily have any halachic validity. If someone considers herself Frum but ignores the prohibition of wearing short skirts or speaking Loshon Hora, even though she knows they are assur, I would think that she would be considered “not-Frum” technically.
On the other hand, if someone did not grow up Frum, but is trying to grow and do what he/she can, I would think that he would be considered more “Frum” than the person in the first example, and I don’t see why it would be permissible to speak L”H about such a person.
1. think the Chazon Ish says that they are Tinok Shinishba if I am not mistaken.
2. I didn’t say the Chofetz Chaim holds they are tinok shinishba. What I said is that he says that you are only allowed to say Loshon Hora about them if you fulfill all the requirements of its being l’toeles (same as by any Jew).
LF- Gofish brought an example earlier in this thread for you to respond to. I just saw it now. I have a feeling that it wasn’t approved right away, so meanwhile other posts were posted, and then no one knew that it was there.
So I am informing you that it is there so you can respond to it (so that it won’t be a LH issue that it was posted).
I have confidence in your ability to respond, and am eagerly awaiting your response (truthfully, I have no idea what she is referring to).
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Apparently, the Chassidim hold that he does, at least in certain circumstances.
Well then, I don’t see what difference it makes. If it has a bad meaning, it has a bad meaning. All words and word meanings in all languages other than Loshon Hakodesh (and maybe the original languages that Hashem brought to the world by migdal Bavel) are arbitrary anyhow.
the moderators won’t let me. You should be able to find them yourself. There’s a link near the beginning of this thread.
Or better yet, find Jewish music tht you like.
JA – that’s the reason why one should refrain from listening to goyish music. Maybe if it’s too hard to stop altogether, you could at least find goyish music that doesn’t have nibul peh? Does all goyish music nowadays really have nibul peh? I don’t think it used to be like that. Maybe you could find old music to listen to.
Loshon Hakodesh has no curse words.
Thanks for the definition. I don’t get how something can be a curse word if it has no meaning, but whatever..
A Minhag can be a Mitzvah, can’t it? You don’t have to do it, but you are being mekayem a Mitzvah when you do it, I think.