Lilmod Ulelamaid

Yes, I’m in EY. They do sell Ben & Jerry’s here, but I don’t know if they have the pareve one or not. I suppose I could check in the store if I really want to. Probably easier than you’re mailing it to me.

Lightbrite: I love the way you always have positive things to say to fellow posters even when you don’t necessarily agree with them!

“Why is this person tznius? Why is this person not tznius? There are details that make it complicated sometimes.”

If you are talking about “grey” areas of tznius and things that you are not sure if they are tznius or not, that is an entirely different topic. I took your opening post at face value and assumed that we were talking about things that are clearly untznius and against halacha.

“Aren’t there women that are makpid on TM who on the outside are not so tznius?”

I’m sure there are, but:

1. Therefore, what? There may be people who are mechalel Shabbos but are very makpid on Kashrus. They are still being mechalel Shabbos. I’m not sure what your point is? TM and Tznius are two different Mitzvos; they are keeping one and not the other.

2. I don’t know which of the two is more important. They are both Mitzvos and both must be kept. It is possible that TM is more important; it’s also possible tznius is. I have no idea. BUT, one VERY important difference between tznius and most other Mitzvos is that when someone dresses untzniusly, she is causing others to sin and causing others to go to Gehenom. I find that many of the girls who dress untzniusly are very sweet girls who would not willingly hurt other people. They clearly don’t realize what they are doing, since they would not do it if they did. THAT is what is so upsetting to me when I see girls dressed untzniusly. If they had any clue what they were doing, they would not do it.

“The fact that you had it worded in an insulting way doesn’t change the halachah if it was not said that way.”

I’m not sure what you mean by that. Please explain.

“I agreed with you that it was worded poorly, but it should be obvious that it was speculation, not fact.”

Obvious or not, he stated it as a fact. The problem with his words is that they can lead her to think negatively of him. By stating it in this (incorrect) way, it is more likely to lead her to think negatively of him. Even when LH is allowed for toeles, it must be accurate and not exagerrated. Stating it as a fact rather than as a speculation is an exageration.

“I agreed with you that it was worded poorly,..”

When speaking Loshon Hora l’toeles, the wording is CRUCIAL. According to the Halachos of the conditions of something being l’toeles, it must be phrased a very particular way, and if it is not, it is assur.

“I think that depending in on the context, saying someone may not be intelligent may not be assur.”

Maybe, maybe not, I don’t know what context that would be. The point is that it is inherently a derogatory statement and t/f Loshon Hora unless the conditions of toeles are fulfilled.

Here, as well, it is inherently a derogatory statement and t/f it is LH and assur unless the conditions of toeles are fulfilled, which they weren’t as I explained in a previous post.

I think the main problem here is a certain mistake that many people make. Many people mistakenly assume that as long as there is a toeles, LH is muttar, and they don’t realize that there are many conditions for toeles that must be fulfilled in order for it to be muttar. Before a person can speak LH for toeles, he must make sure that he knows and applies the halachos of toeles.

I feel like I keep repeating myself. I would like to respectfully request that before anyone else responds, they first reread my previous post explaining why I don’t think the conditions of toeles were not fulfilled here and how they could have been fulfilled.

The source for the fact that not-Frum people are considered Tinok Shenishba is in the Chazon Ish, Siman 2, S’eif 28. He also quotes the Chafetz Chaim as saying that all not-Frum people today are tinok shenishba.

In the Chazon Ish quoted above, he specifically quotes the Chofetz Chaim in Ahavas Chesed as saying that the concept of hating apikorsum does not apply today since they are “anusim” (acting out of coercion/tinok shenishba) and we are suppposed to sustain them and even be mechalel Shabbos to save their lives.

“Rambam says in his introduction to Perek Chelek that the aggadot are all metaphoric.”

I have always learned that some are “metaphoric” (not sure if that’s the right word or not) and some are literal. I just looked at the Rambam and it is not clear if he is saying that they are all “metaphoric” or not. If he is saying that they are all metaphoric, he probably means that they all have a deeper meaning (which is probably the main point in any case) but some of them could still have a literal meaning as well. There difinitely are midrashim that are meant literally.

In terms of knowing which are which, I think that I have heard that the mefarshim on the midrashim discuss it.

There is something that is very important to be aware of that I think many people misunderstand:

When we say that the Midrashim are meant “metaphorically”, it doesn’t really mean “metaphorically” the way the terms is usually used. Every word is Emes. Everything really happened the way it is told, it just happened on a deeper metaphysical sense and not in a physical sense. For example, Hashem really does have a “hand” but it’s not a physical “hand” – it’s a spiritual concept and what we refer to as a hand is really a “mashal” and a physical representation of a spiritual concept called hand which is something that Hashem has.

Vashti may or may not have had a physical tail, but she had some spiritual malady which can be called a “tail” and which a physical tail is a physical representation of.

I think this last point should answer your question to some extent, Flatbusher. Remember, we are referring to the Aggadic part of the Gemara and not the Halachic part. The halachic part is obviously meant to be learned literally (although there are deeper, conceptual meanings as well which no one except maybe mekubalim are probably even aware of), and the Aggadic part is the deeper more conceptual part of the Torah She’beal peh (and the part that almost everyone says that girls can learn).

Maybe he means that someone who has true Yiras Shamayim will have good middos by definition.

Even if that’s true, it still makes sense to look out more for good middos because it is much harder (if not impossible) to tell if someone has Yiras Shamayim than if they have good middos.

Also, even if in theory, Yiras Shamayim should include middos tovos, I’m not sure if it is necessarily the case l’maaseh. I think that most of the time when Frum people lack good middos it is either because of emotional issues or because of bad chinuch, and having yiras Shamayim doesn’t necessarily help. If someone naturally has a bad middah, it is very, very difficult to change it even with all the Yiras Shamayim in the world.

While I do think that middos tovos is the most important quality to look for in a spouse, I think that one should look for both middos tovos and Yiras Shamayim. If someone has midos Tovos but is lacking Yiras Shamayim, then their middos tovos may be somewhat superficial and they may change if circumstances change. I think that Yiras Shamayim provides a good basis for the middos tovos and ensures that they are likely to stay.

Also, it seems to me that if the person has good middos but you don’t share common goals, there is a danger that the marriage might not last when there are difficulties. But if you share common goals (meaning, you are both true Ovdei Hashem who got married l’sheim Shamayim), the marriage has more of a foundation and is more likely to withstand difficulties.

So bottom-line, I think that good middos are more important, but it is important to have both.

“Ben & Jerry’s has pareve ice cream now too! Granted, it’s DE, but still delicious and worth the wait :)”

Do they sell it in Eretz Yisroel?

“I disagree with you, if you are rebuking someone it has to be done privately so as not to embarrass them in public and lose your portion in the next world. I believe that if you rebuke in public (when others are around) the recipient is less likely to accept it as he will lose face amongst his peers, rather it should be done only in private and respectively. Even in a case that was 100% Motzi Shem Ra and you rebuked and you embarrassed your friend publicly, whitening the face of your friend, you MAY have lost your portion in the next world. I maybe wrong but I think the YWN Coffee Room is considered a public forum.

Please Note I am not an expert in this field nor am I trying to criticize anyone but merely trying to understand these laws The above comments are solely my opinion and should not be viewed as Halochah Lemisah, (Jewish Law) nor should that they treated as if they were brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai.”

It’s not me you are disagreeing with – it’s the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz Chaim clearly states otherwise, as I quoted above. It is assur for you to have an opinion that goes against Halacha, and it certainly is assur for you to publicize an opinion that is contrary to Halacha.

Abba- I don’t understand something. You yourself said that you have not learned the halachos of Loshon Hora, so how can you give an “opinion” regarding the halacha? You claim that you are trying to understand the halacha; I told you what the halacha is and gave you the source. Why don’t you look it up or ask a sheilah instead of continually claiming that you don’t think it’s the halacha (even though you haven’t learned the halachos, and I have and I gave you the source)?

Again, I am sorry that you feel that I embarrassed you. I wish that there was a way to avoid it, but according to halacha, that is what I had to do. If I could have phrased things more sensitively than I did, I apologize and I hope you are moichel me, but to be silent would have been assur.

I do have to say that I am puzzled by the fact that you have not once thanked me for trying to spare you from Gehinnom!!! Aren’t you happy that I let you know that what you said was Motzi Sheim Ra so that you can try to have it deleted and avoid gehinnom?

By the way, according to your theory, it would be assur for you to publicly embarrass me by saying that I have publicly embarrassed you and will c”v lose my cheilik in Olam Haba as a result.

“Regarding point #1, he’s probably correct, since neither him nor us know who and what. And as far as the girl who does, well she KNOWS not to believe nor trust someone who cannot possibly know anything. The Heading of this thread clearly states “Guys Please Explain This Behavior and because I gave a possible explanation, I am being vilified by the posters. Is it right?”

1. The fact that someone asked a question doesn’t necessarily mean that you are allowed to answer it if the answer will contain Motzi Sheim Ra or Loshon Hora. For example, if Reuven asks Shimon if his teacher is nice, it is assur for Shimon to say, “no”, and the fact that Reuven asked him does not make it okay.

2. As I pointed out above, there were ways to answer the question without saying anything negative about the person.

In general, I do make a point of trying to refer to loshon hora as motzi shem ra. This was based on a chiddush from my friend’s younger brother (who was around 14 at the time). I never heard this from anyone else, but it makes sense to me. He pointed out that you should always refer to LH as MSR, since you are not allowed to be “mekabel” it, so that means that you must think of it as MSR.

Not being “mekabel” LH is probably the hardest aspect of shmiras halashon, so it seemed to me to be a good aitza as a way of ensuring that you are not mekabel it.

A Last Resort (continuation of pre-conditions for Loshon Hora for toeles)

“If, in addition to personal reproof, any other option exists that could preclude the necessity to speak negatively of someone, it must be pursued. Negative speech, even for a constructive purpose, is lowly, if it can be avoided.” (ibid, Day 46).

“PROPER REACTION:

Based on the previous rules, it is clear that upon hearing loshon hora, one should promptly interrupt the speaker and reprimand him for his words. In a case where doing so would casue the speaker embarrassment (i.e. others are present), it is preferable that one tactfully change the subject, thus preventing the further speaking of loshon hora, and offer reproof later (in private).” (“Chofetz Chaim, A Lesson A Day” by Rav Shimon Finkelman and Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, Day 95).

As seen from the above quote, if someone is speaking LH, you are obligated to reprimand him, and if it’s impossible to do it privately, it must be done publicly.

lightbrite & Gofish – While in theory it can be possible that someone is dressing tzniusly simply to conform and it MIGHT be possible to claim that s.o who dresses tzniusly is not acting out of Yiras Shamayim, surely if someone is dressing or acting in a way that is clearly against Halacha, this indicates a LACK of Yiras Hashem. I don’t see how it is possible to say otherwise. If you think so, I would love to hear your reasoning.

Hashem told us that our knees are not allowed to show (not sure if it’s D’Oraisah or D’rabbanan but Hashem told us to keep D’Rabbanans, so it’s still from Hashem either way), and this girl is choosing to wear a skirt that doesn’t cover her knees even when she is standing still. She knows that Hashem said not to do it, and yet, she is doing it. How can that not demonstrate a lack of Yiras Hashem?

Again, if you have an explanation, I would love to hear it. I am assuming of course, that we are talking about someone who is violating a clear-cut halacha of tznius (and not something that is minhag hamakom) and that we are talking about a girl who received a good education and is well aware of hilchos tznius.

I do know girls who don’t dress tzniusly but are wonderful people and have a lot of Emunah and Bitachon and Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Yisrael, but I fail to see how it’s possible to say that their Yiras Shamayim is not lacking. Again, maybe I’m wrong, and if you have a counter-argument, I would be happy to hear it.

Regarding the idea that someone can be dressing tzniusly just because of society, while in theory that can be a possibility, it seems to me that the opposite is much more likely. The societal pressure nowadays is by and large to NOT dress tzniusly. Also, remember that tznius is not just about dress, so even if someone is really lacking Yiras Hashem and is only dressing tzniusly to make an impression but she really is not a “tzniusdik” person, she will find other ways to be untznius, or she will find a way of dressing that conforms to societal expectations but is not really tznius.

Also, regarding societal “pressure” to dress tzniusly, aside from the fact that today that is pretty uncommon, it seems to me that there is always a yetzer hara to not be tznius even if one lives in a time and place where the pressure is to be tznius. On a personal level, I grew up in a time and place where it was more “mekubal” to be tznius than not to be, and by nature, tznius is not my weak point and not something that I generally have to struggle with, BUT I stil remember a few times in my life, when I was nichshal in the area of tznius. So I think it is something that is a nisayon for everyone, and does demonstrate Yiras Hashem.

I know that girls often don’t like hearing things like this (that tznius is so important and demostrates Yiras Hashem, etc.). It seems to me that that is because it is so hard for most girls, but that is exactly why it demostrates Yiras Hashem.

Some pareve ice creams are yum! I often buy pareve ice cream even when I’m milchiks, because some of them taste very good.

It’s really hard to find good pareve chocolate though, which is very annoying, since chocolate is more of a necessity than ice cream is.

I used to be very quiet – I think I was selective mute as a kid – and now I don’t stop talking, and I’m very outgoing. I don’t know how or why I changed exactly. I never had therapy or anything like that. It could be that I used to be quiet because we moved around so much that I never had a chance to be really comfortable anywhere and find people that I was comfortable with. And maybe that changed once I eventually found people who were like me and whom I could be myself with. Or maybe I just had poor verbal skills and they improved with age. I really don’t know.

I’m also not sure what the difference is – it sounds to me like immaculate conception and virgin birth mean the same thing – they just use one to refer to one and the other to refer to the other.

Health, you totally missed my point.

Uh, wouldn’t the obvious answer be that they are not against halacha according to the Gerrer Rebbe? Like anything else about which there are differences of opinions? There are many times when Gedolim disagree.

Cool!