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HGG – 🙂
Maybe everyone else is more tznius than me, and didn’t think it was appropriate to respond :).
Lightbrite – First of all, Kol hakavod! it sounds like you are doing a great job with working on tznius! I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of “living a double life”. You are working on things one step at a time, just as we are supposed to. If that is called “living a double life” then we all live double lifes! We all have Yetzer tovs and yetzer hara’s. That is how Hashem created us and how we are meant to be. We are constantly battling our yetzer haras. Sometimes we give in more, and sometimes less.
I heard a really amazing story that I was reminded of when I read Person1’s first point. There was a kid-at-risk who was struggling very hard to get back on track. One Shabbos, he was trying very hard not to smoke. He went one hour, two hours, three hours, and then four hours, it was too hard for him, and he gave in to his yetzer hara. He got really depressed, and he spoke to his Rebbe or mentor about it. His Rebbe said to him, “I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll take the gehinnom you would get for smoking on Shabbos. But, only on one condition. You must give me the Gan Eden you have coming to you for not smoking on Shabbos for four hours.”
I thought that was a beautiful story and one you should keep in mind, Lightbrite.
ps: I’m not trying to say that you are necessarily going to gehinom for the times you don’t dress tzniusly. I don’t know Hashem’s cheshbonos, and I don’t want you to get the wrong message from the story. Just trying to counteract some of the prior fire and brimstone messages.
Joseph, it is true that there are some discussions here that are somewhat Torahdik and may be better than others, but I think the point is that one would probably be accomplishing more by sitting and learning a blatt Gemara (and t/f that argument does not suffice in and of itself).
One thing that I find hard to understand (and again, I am not criticizing since I do not know everyone’s circumstances and cheshbonos nor do I know what I would do in such a situation) is that I find it hard to understand why married people spend time here. As a single girl, I get lonely and need an outlet, etc, but I would hope that if I were married, I would not spend time talking to strangers instead of spending time with my family. I am sure that it would bother me if my husband spent time talking to strangers instead of talking to me or our kids or helping me (or learning).
Again, I am not criticizing anyone since I do not know anyone’s circumstances and cheshbonos, and obviously, everyone has his own cheshbonos.
“Regarding the main issue you have with LU:
1. I can see how it might be hard to have a conversation when someone keeps shouting “Lashon Arah” in the background. However all everyone had to do was to ignore it and keep going on with the conversation. It was their choice not to do it.”
That was not the topic here and was not mentioned here, so it did not belong here. In any case, if someone tells you that you are speaking LH, the response should not be to ignore it. The response should either be to say, “you are right, thank you for pointing it out.” Or to say, “thank you for pointing it out, but I don’t think it is LH because of ____.”.
“What do women do in Gan Eden?”
There is absolutely no reason to assume that they do anything different than anyone else and it is absurd to think otherwise. I really thought the question was meant as a joke.
By the way, for those who asked about men who don’t learn or women who don’t learn, your cheilik in Olam Haba is not based on how much you learn. It is based on how many zchusim you have. Obviously Limud Torah is a tremendous zchus, but it is not the only one. There certainly can be people who have little learning but have a tremendous cheilik and vice versa.
Even as far as learning goes, it is not only about the amount of learning one does. It is also about the mesiras nefesh that went into that learning. Someone who is only able to learn a little bit but does so with mesiras nefesh may have more of a zchus (and more Gan Eden) than someone who learns more but with less mesiras nefesh.
Also, supporting someone else’s learning can count as Limud Torah. And support does not only refer to financial support.
LF- I didn’t make it up. The Torah Giants (I believe the Maharal, but I’m only 98% sure, so I didn’t bring the source) say it’s conceptual. However, it is possible that it is meant literally as well, as I stated.
These were my exact words:
“Vashti may or may not have had a physical tail, but she had some spiritual malady which can be called a “tail” and which a physical tail is a physical representation of.”
If you are referring to my second post, I see how it can perhaps be misunderstood if read by itself. However, it was in response to Avi’s question on my original post, and in that context it should be clear.
LF- You told Abba_S that you are totally with him. You can’t tell someone that you are TOTALLY with them unless you read what they wrote and agree with it.
DY – I never said that no one can disagree with me. I would have no problem with Abba politely telling me that he thinks it is not MSR and giving me a reason why and then his reading my explanation of why I disagree. I don’t have a problem having a polite debate with someone, as I have had with you on several occasions.
Instead, he keeps insisting it is not MSR w/o giving a reason (and w/o reading and responding to my explanations) and keeps putting me down and saying that I have no cheilik in Olam Haba for telling him that he was speaking MSR!
What really upsets me is that many people have “heard” him put me down and not one person has defended me. I am through with this place!!
LF- Changing your mind is one thing, but don’t you think it’s a bit hypocritical to have spoken so sharply to Abba and then to tell him that you agree with him that I have no chelek in Olam Haba for pointing out to him that he was speaking MSR (in less harsh terms than you did)?
Abba, your words are very offensive. I let you know that you were speaking Motzi Shem Ra. I even took a lot of time to explain it. If you disagree, you can thank me for taking the time to explain this to you and politely tell me that you disagre and explain why.
“Name one male that would consider being called a girl a compliment!”
None. I was thinking that a girl might consider it a compliment. But I realized after I wrote it that I didn’t phrase it right, and I knew you would respond as you did. Also, I’m not sure if a girl would consider it a compliment for a boy to be thought of as a girl, but that would probably depend.
“BTW, even Halacha can be metaphoric. The classic example is an eye for an eye. It means monetary compensation and not lex talionis.”
The Chumash says “an eye for an eye.” The halacha is not metaphoric. The halacha says that it refers to money.
“You are contradicting yourself in the same sentence when you write “Everything really happened the way it is told, it just happened on a deeper metaphysical sense”. The way it is told is the literal meaning.”
I already explained what I meant. The Midrash says that Vashti had a tali. It does not say that she had a physical tail. What she had was a spiritual tail (I think that Medrash may actually be meant literally, but I am just using it as an example).
“And you know this to be a fact because…..?”
Disclaimer: I know nothing whatsoever about this topic. But, if it’s not certified, what would be the basis for assuming that they wouldn’t use the same utensils for Kosher and non-Kosher ice cream?
Little Froggie- I am also very upset with you as well. It is really not like you to offend others like that, and I am very surprised.
I also do want to point out that I already responded to everything you said here if you read my previous posts.
“I’m going to be dan l’kaf adam normali and figure you said that in the spirit of LF’s comment to be malbin our sheenayim.”
I just chapped what you meant, Golfer. I still disagree, in any case, at least about Joseph’s intentions.
Golfer – he was serious about “malbin sheenayim”. And I think Joseph was too. I took them both seriously – why not? They are both right.
btw, “malbin sheenayim” is a quote from Chazal about the importance of “smiling at others” or in other words, making people happy.
HGG- I think it would depend on several factors. The main one is the purpose of the conversation. Basically, if there is a purpose or not.
Second of all, even if there is a purpose, you always have to speak as tzniusly as possible.
Third of all, it would depend on the setting and who you are speaking to. Certain things should only be discussed with certain people.
“Loosen up, LuL.” I’m asking a question, which I think is a very legitimate one. Saying it’s the internet and a chat site and not a classroom does not answer the question. A Jew is a Jew wherever he is and has to be prepared to answer questions like that (although not to me necessarily, but no one was forced to answer).
The rest of your post did answer the question. Thank you. And so did your post, Joseph, to some extent (although it doesn’t answer for the non-Limud Torah parts).
Again, it was a question, not a criticism.
And by the way, just for the record, I consider the whole world to be a classroom of sorts, both for teaching and for learning. That is what we are in the world for. And hence, my name.
I just glanced through this thread – no patience or interest to spend much time on it. But I had to laugh when I saw this comment from Health:
Health: “I’m not going to argue with you because it’s the three weeks!
But jeeze – did you have to call me a girl?!?”
That must be the biggest insult he’s ever received! (at least in his opinion. Some might consider it a compliment :))
bump
Person1 +1
good point! I hadn’t thought of that.
Little Froggie, I am very curious as to when you changed your mind and why. You started off with this comment:
“Toeles does NOT automatically remove the prohibition. There are a lot of other criteria to satisfy. One and one of the main is to know for certain that it’s true. WHICH YOU MOST CERTAINLY DON’T. (unless you’re the ‘him’!!!) Do YOU know there’s no Rabbi?!? Do YOU know the underlying issue?!?
And pray tell what is your toeles. Do you think by joining the badwagan and automatically condemning, besmirching the one party, that the other will be mollified, comforted??”
That was way stronger than anything I said! And then suddenly you are arguing against my saying that it was Motzi Shem Ra? Why the sudden change without any explanation? And if you weren’t convinced that it was LH/MSR in the first place, why would you have spoken so harshly?
Abba, In order to ask a sheilah, I need to know what the sheilah is. You claimed that your statement was not Motzi Shem Ra as there was a toeles. I explained to you that the fact that there is a toeles does not make something mutter as there are many conditions. I explained what those conditions are and how they were not fulfilled here. So what is your question?
Regarding my “embarrassing you in public”, I also explained to you why that was both muttar and required. So what is your question?
If you have a question, I would be happy to ask. So please explain what it is.
I gave many citations. No one has been able to show why they do not apply here.
If someone is makpid on cholov yissrol for DE, wouldn’t that mean that they don’t eat at people’s homes who use cholov stam? I have never heard of someone who doesn’t eat at someone’s house who uses cholov stam (except maybe Lubavitchers).
1. We are not an impasse. I already proved to you that it was Motzi Shem Ra, and you have not been able to counteract my proofs.
2. I never referred to you by name. I do not know your real name. Regarding usernames which are not real names in any case, it makes no difference whether or not someone uses a username if everyone knows who they are referring to.
3. In terms of your being allowed to respond to “false allegations”, that is exactly why I was allowed to respond to you. You accused me falsely (since “kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh”), and I was very offended, and responded to your allegations. I was really hurt, and you haven’t once apologized although I apologized to you many times.
4. They were not “false allegations” as I already explained to you. You have not yet provided any evidence to the contrary.
5. As I already pointed out to you many times, I had a chiyuv to say something to you.
6. If you don’t know that I sinned, you are certainly not allowed to accuse me of such.
7. As for a competent Rabbi with citations, you already have it from a competent Rebbetzin with citations, but if you want, I will try to find someone more learned than I am in Hilchos Loshon Hora and ask them. As soon as I find someone and ask them, I will let you know.
Lightbrite- thank you for sharing your perspective. It honestly never occurred to me that tznius could be so difficult for someone who is as much of a “bas aliya” as you seem to be.
I know you said you don’t want solutions, but I would like to point out that the idea that dressing tzniusly causes Vitamin D deficiencies is a very controversial one. My brother who is not Frum and is a medical school graduate said that it is ridiculous and you can get enough Vitamin D from being outside for 20 minutes while dressed tzniusly. Also, my doctor who very much believes in the Vitamin D deficiency thing, told me that it is very controversial and most of her colleagues disagree with her on it. My brother explained that the reason why so many people are supposedly lacking Vitamin D nowadays is because they raised the amount of Vitamin D that they decided people should have, but there was no real reason for that.
In terms of your other reasons, it is hard for me to understand why it is so difficult, but I don’t have to understand. I don’t find it so difficult; you do. I guess different people find different things difficult.
You said that you don’t want solutions, and I am not sure that I have any anyhow. You are right that Hashem does not want us to get depressed. All I can do is to give you a bracha that you should find a way to grow in tznius without getting depressed.
I know you don’t want solutions, but maybe you should try taking small steps or setting up a reward system for yourself (or with others if that makes it easier).
You definitely sound to me like a real bas aliyah and someone who does have Yiras Shamayim and is always trying to grow, so I wish you a lot of hatzlacha and continued growth.
ZD – I saw a letter from Rav Chaim Kanievsky in which he said that it is mutter for Ashkenazi women to wear sheitels (as per the Mishna Berura). He did not differentiate between different types of Ashkenazi women. I was basing my statement on his psak.
“Perhaps Abba_s should have made that more clear, as well as making it more clear that he was speculating.”
That was the main issue I had with his statement as I originally said.
“I meant that saying someone is stupid is unnecessarily more insulting than saying someone is not intelligent.
The fact that you used that example suggests that in an equivalent example to what Abba_s said, you would not seem correct, so you exaggerated.”
That is not true and is irrelevant. You had said that you didn’t think that a speculation could be considered LH. I was giving an example of a speculation that is clearly LH in order to show you that a speculation could be LH. I said “stupid” as opposed to “not intelligent” because it never would have occurred to me to say “not intelligent” instead of “stupid”. (although perhaps if I had chazered the Parsha this week, I would have.)
“When someone has commitment issues, they are not dating for marriage purposes, although they often think they are.”
1. Now, you phrased things very differently than he did. You said that they are not dating for marriage purposes, although they think they are.
That is very different from what he said.
2.”It was l’toeles, because his explanation was more reasonable than yours.”
I had already included this explanation as a possibility, but I said it in the least negative way possible, and made sure to mention that it is only one possibility and that there are many others. Which there are.
Lightbrite, I also wanted to point out an important difference that occurred to me between tznius and most other Mitzvos. This may be one of the reasons why it is considered so crucial, and why it is considered to epitimoze what a Bas Yisrael is about.
The fact is that the way you are dressed is both a constant and something that is clearly visible to all those whom you come into contact with. If a girl puts on a short skirt in the morning, she will be wearing a short skirt the ENTIRE day. When she davens, when she does chesed, when she goes on the bus, wherever and whatever she is doing, she is doing it while wearing her short skirt. Furthermore, this is something very noticeable to whoever comes into contact with her in the course of the day, and will probably be one of the first things they notice about her. Because, yes, a person’s chitzonius is the first things you notice about them!
Isn’t that a tremendous Chilul Hashem, that she is walking around blatantly disobeying an explicit halacha in the Shulchan Aruch for all to see?
Lightbrike: “If a wife reduced her tzniut standards, than al pi din, that’s a dealbreaker. If a wife increases her level of tzniut to the point where a husband is not attracted to her, than that is a problem requiring pastoral and marital counseling.”
What you are saying is basically true, but I would just like to add a clarification. When you say that if she increased her level of tznius…, I assume that we are talking about something that is a chumra. If she had not been aware of or had not kept a particular HALACHA, obviously she is required to keep it.
My friend’s cousin grew up not knowing that covering one’s hair is a halacha (I guess she thought it was a chumra.) One day, after she had already been married many years, she found out that it is the Halacha. As soon as she heard this, she started covering her hair. Her husband tells her every day how ugly she is, so it is very hard for her and takes a lot of mesiras nefesh, but she continues covering her hair anyhow. She sometimes tells my friend that it is really hard and maybe she should stop, but my friend always encourages her by reminding her of how much schar she is getting. (and yeah, I don’t get her husband either).
On the other hand, if an Ashkanazi woman had always worn a sheitel and decided one day that she wants to stop and her husband doesn’t want her to, I would agree that it would be wrong for her to stop, since not wearing a sheitel is a chumra for Ashkenazim.
Lightbrite +1!
I am far from being a child, but many times I ask my mother a question out of the blue. She generally makes an incorrect assumption about why I am asking the question, since the real reason is something she could not have guessed in a million years.
Uh, come to think of it, this exact scenario just happened about a week or two ago. I asked her something about why people got divorced. She assumed I was asking because I am in shidduchim and go out with guys who are divorced. I didn’t want to explain that I was having an argument with someone in the Coffee Room, so I just said that I had had a discussion with someone about the topic and was curious about it.