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Writersoul – I don’t know if I can comment on everything you wrote right now, but I do want to make a few important points:
1. Just for the record, originally when KJ chassid wrote that Futuregirl should be looking for a school that teaches Torah not zionism, I thought he meant something very different. I thought he was just saying that one should choose a school based on how much Torah you will learn there and not based on the politics. One of the things I found out about B’eer Miriam is that even though they are tzioni, they teach Yiras Shamayim, not hashkafa. I had thought that was what he meant.
I am not really interested in discussing his posts – I just wanted to point that out, since I think I was “maskim” to that post.
2. In terms of Gedolim and zionism, I thought I made it clear that I was not expressing an opinion. There are many reasons for this; one of the primary ones is that I do not feel qualified to do so.
You quote me as saying that I don’t agree with pluralism, and as saying that there are Gedolim who are zionistic. I did not make either statement and I do NOT KNOW if I agree with either statement.
What I did say is that it is POSSIBLE that there are people who have what they think is a Torah-based hashkafa when in fact it is not.
Amongst other proofs of this statement is basic logic as follows:
If you think that all hashkafas that claim to be Torah-based are in fact Torah-based, then you must acknowledge that KJ’s hashkafa that there are hashkafas that claim to be Torah-based and really aren’t is a Torah-based hashkafa. Therefore, you can not say that anyone has a right to say that your hashkafa is not Torah-based, since according to your hashkafa, they have a right to say it.
Basically, if you are really going to be pluralistic, then you have to acknowledge that others have a right to say that your hashkafa is wrong and not a Torah-hashkafa.
Besides for which, obviously there can be people who think that their hashkafa is Torah-based when in fact it isn’t! That has always been the case. Why should the fact that someone considers their hashkafa to be Torah-based NECESSARILY make it so?
That was my point about pluralism. There is no concept in Judaism that EVERYONE is right. There can be people who are wrong (Reform, Conservative, OO, maskilim, Korach, Shabtai Tzvi and those who followed him, etc.)
I would just like to respectfully request that all posters please try to keep in mind that this debate is not academic. We are talking about a real situation involving a real person (who could even be reading this or have friends, family or acquaintances who are).
Please try to keep that in mind as you post. Thank you!
“I’ve been married previously, and I never heard of a marriage that there was no disagreement. There’s nothing wrong with having disagreements, its what both parties do to resolve them!”
Psh…I’m impressed! However, in this case, I have to say that I think the disagreement is over what the disagreement is.
lightbrite +2!
I had a friend who lost her engagement ring (I think that’s what it was, but I’m not 100% sure) in the garbage bin. All the neighborhood kids put on gloves and searched for her! Yes, they did find it.
If people do it for engagements rings, kal v’chomer for their engagement ring to their Creator! (??????? ?? ?????)
lesschumras – thanks. I don’t know if controlled is the most appropriate word. I think it has a negative connotation, whether or not you meant it that way.
LF- lol, maybe you should change your name to mine! Mine would work pretty well for a Gadol (except that I don’t think he’d be on the internet in the first place…)
Lightbrite- lol! That would definitely be an emergency situation! But I don’t think that was the issue they were talking about.
Meno – that is true in theory, but I guess the point is that it is generally only when people are travelling that they are likely to be stuck! I mean how likely is it that someone is sitting at home, and they DESPERATELY need a coffee, and they are out of coffee, and the ONLY place they can get coffee is Starbucks???
Like, if you can get out to Starbucks, why can’t you get to the supermarket and purchase coffee (or borrow from a neighbor)?? Unless Starbucks is open 24/7 (is it?) and there are no supermarkets that are open 24/7, and it’s the middle of the night and for some odd reason you desperately need a coffee in the middle of the night and somehow you didn’t plan ahead and buy coffee (or borrow from a neighbor) when you saw it was used up? Not a very likely scenario, imho.
I think that in general, travelling is often used in halacha as a reason to be lenient in many areas – such as netilas yadayim, and davening before netz, etc. So it does seem to be something that is recognized in halacha as a circumstance that can allow for leniencies.
Lightbrite: “Last night I shared the article about the search on my social media page.
A random friend asked, “Why is this thing as important?”
My reply: “It’s holy and so personal. This person cannot start his day without his tefillin. Often tefillin are passed down the generations. It’s more necessary and meaningful than a wedding band. It’s a big deal, to say the least.””
Lightbrite +1 Nice!
These are the kinds of things people should spread on the internet!
Moderators – I’m just curious what I wrote that was edited. I don’t remember what else I wrote. I’m not complaining – especially since you seem to have posted everything I remember writing, and the idea I was trying to get across seems to be there, and if there was anything that could have been offensive, I’m glad it was edited – I am just curious what it was and why it was edited. Thanks!
What is a KJ chusid anyhow? Does KJ stand for something?
LB – got it. Sounds like you have done tons of research, so there is certainly nothing for me to add.
The teeny bit I know is based on a few articles combined with both common sense and my own (possibly incorrect) assumptions and biases.
I am curious to know what the professionals you have spoken to told you about the topic.
“Where do you draw the line?”
That’s precisely why we have Daas Torah. If these decisions were so simple and could be made based on how ZD (or others) feel, we wouldn’t need to have Gedolim – we could just post in the CR and ask posters what they think we should do.
I have never understood how people question Gedolim. If you think you know more than them, why aren’t you the Gadol?
edited
Meno – I haven’t been following this whole thing at all, but I could theoretically see a situation of someone “needing a coffee.”. Maybe she is a mother travelling with young kids and she will not be able to deal with them w/o her coffee. Maybe he/she has a car parked by the airport and will have to be able to drive as soon as he gets off the plane. Maybe he/she is extremely addicted to coffee and really can’t manage w/o it.
In terms of “Would the same apply if “I needed a hamburger”…”, you could ask the same question about the guy driving. I understand that you feel it’s pikuach nefesh because he may fall asleep at the wheel, but what if he is really hungry and may get dizzy if he doesn’t eat? Would you say it would be okay for him to eat the hamburger? No, you would say that he should either try to manage or call a taxi or call someone to pick him up, etc.
Truthfully, I think the guy in the car may have more options than the guy on the plane. For one thing, he had the option of bringing an energy drink with him in the car which the guy on the plane may not have had.
The pikuach nefesh argument sounds a bit shvach to me altogether and clearly only applies since the coffee is not mamash assur altogether, and just shouldn’t be drunk l’chatchila (at least that’s how it sounds to me, if it is being allowed in certain circumstances).
Health, you missed my point, but it’s really not that important.
DY – that’s the first time that’s happened in a while.
“I hope R’ Orlofsky isn’t reading this.”
“If he were, how would he respond?”
He’d probably laugh 🙂
I totally meant it in a positive way or I wouldn’t have said it. I also wouldn’t have said it if I thought it could be taken the wrong way. Rabbi Orlofsky chose a certain style of speech. He chooses to be funny and entertaining since he feels that he will better be able to get his messages across that way.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a deep message there. It just means that he chose a particular style of speaking that he feels will be most effective.
If others (moderators included) feel that my posts could c”v be taken the wrong way, please let me know asap, so I can ask that they be removed. If necessary, I can say the same thing w/o examples. And if Snooper already read them (have you yet?), they can certainly be removed.
Presumably a sheilah was asked. It’s a major Kiddush Hashem that we are willing to put so much money, time and effort into this!
It makes me feel very guilty about the time I borrowed someone’s Chumash at a barbecue and placed it in a bag that someone apparently accidentally threw out. I didn’t realize that there was anything I could do about it.
Meno – maskim. I think games is the best idea. But it sounds like they used to do that and stopped. Maybe they were too tired to play games. But there are so many games and types of games in the world – I would think they could find something that is doable even while exhausted.
So what do you think, Snooper, of the suggestions made so far?
Yeshivishhock- it sounds like you have a real dilemma on your hands. I very much sympathize with you.
I can’t offer you much in the way of advice or personal experience since I have never experienced this and do not know what I would do, and I have no idea what the right thing to do is either. (well, actually I can guess what I would do – I would almost definitely marry him, but only because I would be acting on my emotions, and not necessarily because it would be the right thing to do)
I am sure that there are people who have acted one way and are happy they did so, and others who acted the other way and are happy that they did so.
The one suggestion I would make is to remember that as Jews, we have to remember that the purpose of all our actions is to serve Hashem. When making any decision, the decision must be based on one factor alone: Will this bring me closer to Hashem or c”v, the opposite?
When it comes to marriage, that is definitely the most important question. It is also crucial to think about the kind of home you want to build and the way in which you want to raise your children. If you marry him, will you be able to build the kind of home you want and raise your kids the way you want to? Since that is the purpose of marriage, these are important issues to think about.
Right now, you are infatuated with him, but from what I have heard (no personal experience), infatuation may not be enough of a basis for marriage. A marriage has to be based on common goals and values.
I am not saying that the answers to these questions is definitely no. It is possible that you do share the same basic values. But it is something to think about.
kol hakavod for having the strength to spend the last year and a half dating other guys when you were really interested in dating this guy! You obviously have a lot of internal strength, since that must have been a really hard thing to do. I wish much continued hatzlacha in making the right decision, whatever it may be.
Only on Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av – those are the only days during the year when I can get away with it. Otherwise, I won’t go further than the garbage bin in crocs (and even that, I usually only do at night).
Onetime – you have a lot of creative ideas! +1
Most women (and men) don’t go to the Kosel during times when there is danger.
I wasn’t saying that women have to refrain from going to shul in the rain; I was just saying that women don’t have to go to shul at all if they don’t want to. They also don’t have to go to the Kosel. Personally I almost never do, since I don’t have time to.
Excellence -“I would not risk my marriage on such thin ice. Such a wife could turn on you at any moment. They make for dangerous inlaws too. Unfortunately, I’ve seen it before.”
Health – “You’re right when it comes to women; but the OP was talking about a guy!”
LU -“Why should it be different for men?”
Health- “You yourself just brought down a case in the topic called Obamacare etc., that a woman seeked an abortion for emotional problems!
That’s why!!!”
The discussion here was about the wife “turning on her husband”. The issue in the other thread was about a women who was unable to manage all the additional work involved with an additional baby.
1. That doesn’t necessarily mean that she would turn on her husband. Is your point that you think that women are more likely to “turn on their husbands” because they are under more stress?
In that case, that should be stated. Otherwise, it sounds like you think that there is something in women’s genetic makeup that makes them more likely to “turn on their husbands”.
2. I don’t see why this would only apply to women. A man could also find the additional baby to be stressful. Maybe the financial burden is too much pressure for him, or maybe his wife needs a lot of help, etc. Or besides for a baby, there could be other factors in a man’s life that he might find as stressful as this lady found having a baby. I once went out with a twice-divorced guy who told me that he isn’t planning on having kids the next time around becaus he can’t afford to pay any more child-support. (no, I’m not kidding. yes, that was the last date).
side point: it wasn’t actually an abortion. It was a less-complicated and less-halachically problematic procedure.
LB- it’s not clear to me – was your original question about someone who already recovered or who is in the process? Also, are you talking about alcohol or drugs, both or either?
Yeshivishhock – you make very good points, and I had realized that. I just figured that it made sense to suggest learning first, and then if she says she can’t, to go on to something else.
I also deliberately did not suggest having an intense chevrusa with her husband or attending a shiur, but instead suggested things that are much lighter (like PIT or listening to Rav Orlofsky).
If those things aren’t shayich, your ideas sound good.
Abba – how in the world did that happen? When I responded to your comment, it was there (listed as being 1 or 2 hours behind mine). Then, it disappeared as I was posting my comment. It then came back (possibly with an edition).
The Rambam used to celebrate his aliya date even though he only lived in EY for a short time.
YY – I actually just asked someone here in EY that question. It seems that you vote with the last State you lived in.
Maybe you could try to find something Torahdik or educational (but light) to watch like Project Inspire’s video or something.
Or listen to shiurim by people like Rabbi Orlofsky or Rav Pesach Krohn (both of whom are entertaining and tell lots of stories or jokes and are easy to listen to when you’re tired).
You mentioned that you used to play games. Why did you stop?
“Joseph why do you assume this other party need to do teshuva be dan lekaf zchus are you so perfect you do not need to worry about yourself>?”
When I daven Shemona Esrei, by Hashiveinu, I have a list of people that I daven for asking that Hashem help them to do teshuva. I consider it to be part of “v’ahavta l’raiecha kamocha” just like I daven for a refuah shelaima for specific people in refainu.
I always put my own name first: 1. so it shouldn’t sound gaivadik & 2. because I do care more about myself than other people, and I am more scared of my going to gehhnom, c”v, than I am of others.
At the same time, it would be really selfish for me to stop with myself and not to daven for others as well.
Amongst others, I include some of the Israeli politicians. Instead of getting mad at them all the time, I figured it’s more productive to daven for them.
bli neder, I will try to find out for you when I have a chance.
“I live in a hot place. Thus, even when it’s raining out, the buildings are blasting A/C.”
I was trying to figure out why the a/c was blasting when it was raining :)!
In E”Y, that would never happen, since it only rains when it’s cold. I think that in the US, it is also pretty rare to have the a/c blasting when it’s raining.
I can hear how that can be somewhat unhealthy, but I can’t imagine that it qualifies as pikuach nefesh for most people. If it really did, they would not have the a/c blasting (there are still places in the world where people don’t use a/c, so it obviously is possible).
You are probably right that this is something you have to be concerned about, but most people dont.
That being said, you last paragraph sums it up well:
“If you want to go to shul badly enough, then you will, regardless of the weather and even if it doesn’t make sense. For men, there is an extra sense of responsibility to join the minyan too.
“
Hashemisreading – I didn’t vote, but I was happy that Trump won. I’m not sure why – I know little about politics – it was just my feeling. Maybe because I never liked the Clintons, and I feel he will probably be better for Israel (although there is no way to really know).
Someone told me that I shouldn’t say that I’m happy that Trump won, but rather, I am happy that Clinton lost.
You have to ask these questions to someone who is an expert in the topic. Maybe try to do some research online.
I didn’t understand your first question – Was he originally addicted to drugs, to alcohol or both?
Also – I’m not sure that I would consider Shabbos, simchas, sometimes wine with dinner to be regular drinking. How much is he drinking at a time? And how often are the simchas/wine with dinner? Does he get tipsy or drunk or is he fine with the amount he is drinking?
I was under the impression that there is nothing wrong with a glass of wine a day, but I might be wrong (definitely not my area of expertise). This had been discussed on another thread. Or is the issue that he used to be alcoholic, and you are afraid that this “regular drinking” will cause him to revert? You would have to find out if a recovered alcoholic is better off drinking in controlled moderate amounts or abstaining altogether.
maybe he thinks you are allowed online if it’s “l’toeles” and he considers trying to get people to not be zionist to be a “toeles”.
not saying that I agree; I just don’t think that one should assume he is a troll or conclude that he should not be on the internet just because he is anti-zionist. One can argue that none of should be online since to some degree there is a “stira” between anyone being on the internet and being Frum, but we all have reasons why we decided that it’s okay (rightly or wrongly).
lightbrite – you may be right and I had thought of that, but I still thought it was worth suggesting.
I am not sure if they thought it was necessary to do something together or not. If they are running out of topics of conversation, I thought it might be productive for them to spend some time not together. Anyhow, it’s only an hour a week, and they can spend the rest of them time preparing and discussing together.
“70+% of Lakewood voters voted Trump. The twenty-something percent that Clinton got was mainly from the non-Jewish residents.”
So the question is: What percentage of Frum people in Lakewood didn’t vote, and how much would this have changed the percentages of Orthodox voters overall who voted for Trump?
I only asked one person in Lakewood if she voted, and she said that she didn’t vote because her husband didn’t tell her to.
Abba, I wasn’t referring to your comment. At the time I posted my comment, your comment was listed as being 1 or 2 hours ago (I’m not sure which).
It also wasnt about “I am fasting now since last night until 72 tonight and repeat it everyday”.
If you don’t know what I am referring to, you obviously missed it (either the comment or the point of the comment), so I am not going to point it out to you.
Also, even though spiritual danger is worse than physical danger, I agree with Lightbrite that drug abuse usually involves both.
Also, the term “baalei teshuva” includes a very broad range of people. How likely they are to revert back really depends on the individual and the individual situation. Some people were coming from nothing to begin with and others grew up fairly traditional and had a Day School education. Some just recently became Frum and others have been Frum for a long time.
The factor that would make the most difference is: How grounded is the person, both in general and in their Yiddishkeit? Is he/she a rational person who made his decision based on rational reasons?
I know a baalas teshuva who became a christian missionary, but knowing her, I wasn’t as surprised as I might have been. She was very spiritual, but she had never been well-grounded. When she dated someone Chareidi, she “became” chareidi and switched her kids to a chareidi school. When she later dated someone dati-leumi, she became dati-leumi and again switched her kids’ schools.
I do understand your point, Abba about spiritual dangers being greater. I am just making the point that my impresion (although I’m not an expert so I may be wrong) is that it is impossible for any addict to ever be out of danger of a relapse, and a relapse has a very good chance of being deadly.
On the other hand, with baalei teshuva, my impression is that the chances of a relapse are much more minimal in most cases (each case is different and has to be judged for itself, but with addicts, I think it’s a given that the danger of a relapse is always grave – no pun intended – it’s not very funny anyhow, but unfortunately holds a lot of truth).
But again, I am far from an expert, so my words should be taken with a grain of salt, but it would be a good idea to research the matter.
I don’t know if you can use a musician/performer as a typical example. From what I have heard, the industry is fraught with spiritual dangers, and there have been ffb performers who went astray as a result.
Lightbrite – I hate heels and never wear them! As I wrote in another thread, I wear shoes for practical purposes. I never understood why someone would want to wear shoes that they can’t walk in. Speaking of pikuach nefesh issues, it would make me very nervous to walk around in heels! What if someone starts threatening you or you see a person or dog or some other animal who looks scary, how would you be able to get away quickly?
Abba, since Lightbrite is a girl, she doesn’t have to daven in shul. There are different approaches as to whether it’s better for a girl to daven in shul or at home (some people think it’s better for girls to daven at home) but at the end of the day, it’s an individual decision (since both are fine according to halacha). Overall, most Frum women and girls don’t go to shul (although this depends on the community as well as the age/stage of life).
Of course, it is commendable for a girl to go to shul, but it is not required, and if she actually gets up early enough to daven the entire davening, she is doing pretty good!
What you wrote is true for a man though! And for any girl who wants to go to shul and would go if it weren’t raining.
Why don’t each of you become mentors for Partners-In-Torah? In addition to filling your time in a useful way, you will have more to discuss with each other the rest of the time.
“Hashem protects when on the way to, and when engaged in, a mitzvah (such as tefila).”
although, if it were a real pikuach nefesh issue, one should not rely on that. In a real pikuach nefesh situation, it would probably not be a Mitzvah in any case.
While the comment from 3 hours ago was funny, I am wondering if it constitutes loshon hora or onaas devarim and should be deleted. Thanks!
and btw, he probably meant that he started at chatzos or sometime before alos hashachar.
Futuregirl – I had responded to you on the B’eer Miriam thread because I thought the conversation was being moved to there. I just realized that you might not have seen it.
“YH -“But he isn’t what I’m looking for. He’s working, he’s a great guy but I don’t know how much he still learns. He would watch a movie here and there. Etc.”
And why isn’t he what you’re looking for?!?
This whole world that working guys aren’t good enough is just a sign of the times!
Once upon a time, no girl wanted a learning guy.
I wanted to sit and learn – not because it’s the PC.”
My concern (more than the learning/working issue) is that he watches movies and you don’t even know how much he learns.
Regarding your comment, Health, about boys learning because it’s PC is not necessarily relevant since I assume that she wants a guy who is learning for the right reasons.
Also, the fact that there guys are more likely to learn today because it’s the thing to do doesn’t make it a bad thing. People are heavily influenced by society, far more than they realize. Most of the good things that people do are because of society. Better that people do good things because of society than bad things.
“I saw a poll being reported that overall (i.e. across the country) Orthodox Jews voted 56% for Hillary.”
I might be wrong, but I think that a lot of Jews in Lakewood might not bother voting since their votes won’t count anyhow, as NJ is overwhelmingly Democratic and the Frum vote won’t change that. I’m not very into politics, but that is what I once heard someone say. If they had voted, I would assume the statistics probably would have changed overwhelmingly in favor of Trump.
Also, I think it’s possible that a lot of Frum people didn’t vote since they didn’t know who to vote for, but if they had to vote, many of them would have voted Trump. ( I would basically put myself in that category as well).