Lilmod Ulelamaid

Utah – maybe it’s not what you would have done, but I don’t know if we should be criticizing the people who did it and speaking badly about them. It could be a LH problem.

In any case, I really don’t think that is what was happening there, and I see no reason to assume such a thing. The most likely possibility is the one that many posters have already given – that they didn’t want people to see untznius pictures.

Even if it weren’t the most likely possibility, but only one possibility, we have a chiyuv to be “dan l’kaf zchus” and assume the best. There is certainly no reason for us to davka assume the worst possible reason

PBA: “The best answer I’ve seen is that turkeys just beat the clock and we found them and started eating them right before we decided to only use mesorah, and so therefore they had a mesorah from that time.”

PBA, I totally thought you were joking, but I just saw an article on YWN main site that says that!

I guess you were being serious.

I had turkey last night. Not l’shem thanksgiving but l’shem joining my family who were eating it l’shem thanksgiving.

Also l’shem the fact that it was yum!

Qualification: I am not trying to say that I am opposed to someone celebrating Thanksgiving if that is how their Rabbanim posken.

Enough Divorces – that sounds like very wise advice.

Lenny, honestly, what concerns me is the fact that from what you wrote, it sounds like you were refusing to listen to the Rav who you went to. He is a Rav and he is the Rav who you went to discuss this matter with, and yet, you refused to listen to him (according to what you wrote).

I agree with what Abba_S said about that. You should be listening to what the Rav tells you to do and not what anonymous posters tell you to do.

Can you get away with it technically? Yes, but so what? There are many things that people can get away with, but it doesn’t make them the right thing to do. That is why we have Rabbanim – to guide us and tell us the right thing to do.

As many posters already pointed out, the pictures were photoshopped because it is a problem to have untzniusdik pictures lying around.

In terms of the supposed rewriting of history – hello, I don’t think it occurred to them in a million and one years that anyone would be analyzing the pictures like this!!

Like why in the world would it occur to someone that anyone would be measuring the hems and sleeves and necklines and comparing them to old versions of the pictures and analyzing why this was done and coming to the conclusion that someone was trying to rewrite history, etc?

They simply saw an untznius picture and decided to make it more tzniusdik, period. Just as SYAG does with her textbooks. If they had thought that anyone would read into it, of course they would have left it out. But that never occurred to them.

Personally, if I were in their situation, I probably would have done the same thing, without thinking twice about it.

When I used to color in pictures for my students, it never occurred to me that there was any sheker involved, because now they will think that Helen Keller wore long sleeves. I don’t care how long Helen Keller’s sleeves are – I would just prefer that my students not see pictures of short sleeves.

If the pictures were being used to teach hilchos tznius, you’d be right. But no one is using the pictures to teach hilchos tznius. We learn hilchos tznius from the Mishna Brurah, not from pictures.

Lenny, I was referring to the Rav from the Beis Din, not to your local Rabbi. Ultimately, this is an issue which requires “Daas Torah”, and before you make a final decision, you should be consulting with a reliable experienced Rav regarding what you SHOULD be doing from a Torah perspective, not just what you could be doing, imho.

Person1 – lol, I write my first post before I saw your last one. I was totally doing the same thing in that post. That’s how my mind works (especially when I’m sleep-deprived)

In any case, just to let you know, I do agree with your point even though I was presenting the other side! I was not trying to discredit you or censor you in any way. I agree with you and felt you expressed the point well, and therefore there was nothing for me to add besides for presenting the other side.

But I do agree with you and it was a good point, and I am not trying to divert the topic.

Person1 – I hear your point, but I don’t agree. I did not feel like I was diverting the topic of conversation. I agreed with what she said and didn’t have anything else to add right now. Well, actually, I had something to add, but it was a quote that I have to look for and can’t right now. So therefore, I had nothing to add. I think she expressed the point very well.

My point wasn’t to censor anyone or anything. I think that everything has two sides to it (at least). Part of being intellectual and part of being a Torah Jew who is trying to get to Emes means seeing both sides to things. Avraham represents Chesed, Yitzchak represents Gevurah, and Yaakov is Emes which is the combination of the two. If something is too one-sided, it is not emes.

My intention was certainly not to in any way discredit the original point, and I hope it wasn’t seen that way.

By the way, it seems to me that you were doing the same thing that I was 🙂

In any case, I appreciate your insight and feedback which was expressed politely and sincerely as always. I am glad to hear your opinion even if I disagree. I think it is good to know how people “hear” things and I will take it into consideration.

And now you motivated me to try to find the quote when I have a chance.

“There could also be a new, modern interpetation. That people care more about where they belong in sociaty (whether they are chareidi, MO, yeshivish, and what percent of each) then what the torah wants them to do?”

I used to think that those things didn’t matter at all, but at some point I realized/decided that it does have some importance, and a person can’t ignore those things altogether, at least not in Eretz Yisroel. I tried to live my life that way for years, and it doesn’t work.

In addition to the fact that there are hashkafic reasons why it is important, it is also important for sociological reasons. Part of being a Torah Jew is being a healthy functional person, and part of being a healthy, functional person does mean knowing what your identity is. Obviously, your main identity is that you are an Eved Hashem, but you also have to fit into society, and part of your identity is knowing what sociological group you identify with. Just like being American, etc, is part of your identity.

That being said, obviously the focus should be on serving Hashem, and everything else is a means to an end. And a person should never get so caught on their labels that make decisions solely based on whether it’s a Yeshivish thing to do or a Modern Orthodox thing to do or whatever.

bump

JM13- +1!

I feel much safer in Eretz Yisrael. When I am in the US, I can’t walk around at night. I couldn’t go to the shopping area in Lakewood after 5:00 pm in the Winter. I was once mugged at 9:00 pm in the Summer. When I told someone about it, she said, “Why were you walking around at 9:00 pm?”

In EY, you can safely walk around till 2:00 am. I have lived here for many years, and I am out at all hours, and Boruch Hashem, I have never once been mugged. I have rarely ever had to cross the street or choose a different route because a particular person or neighborhood seemed scary.

When I lived in the US, whenever I heard a noise late at night, I would get scared and look out the window to see if anyone was trying to break in. Here, I never have to worry about such things. Sometimes when I hear a noise at night and I start to get startled, but then I remember that I am back in EY and I have nothing to be scared of. I keep the door locked, but you really don’t have to (at least not for safety), and many people don’t.

Everyone in my city is Jewish, and the majority are Frum.

I definitely feel more secure, more relaxed and more free here as JM13 put it.

Health – it is really assur to say the things that you are saying. You are speaking badly about Am Yisrael to goyim and telling them that (some) anti-Semitism is legitimate. That is both assur and very dangerous!

As someone already said (I think it’s on the other thread), We treat goyim far better than they treat each other! We bend over backwards for the Arabs, so don’t say such things.

LB-like I said before, it’s only in recent history (1920 is recent history) that people started having these tznius issues. Tznius is not a modern invention – they used to dress and act MUCH MORE tzniusly than we do today.

If people from earlier years would see how things are done today, they would be horrified! I once heard someone point out that we see that even by Achashverosh and Vashti (who were not exactly models of tznius), the norm was that men and women dined COMPLETELY SEPARATELY! Forget about separate tables – they were in different places!

The idea that we are stricter about tznius today is a complete myth!

And it has already been explained several times why the photoshopping was done, so I don’t need to repeat.

“mw13, any reason for all the cut and pasting of articles? Perhaps you would like to share some thoughts or opinions?”

? What is this in reference to? Was something deleted?

iacisrmma – I was responding to Health’s comment made shortly before mine was. He was the one who pulled this up from 4 years ago.

“Joe doesn’t agree with you!”

Az mah?

Anyhow, I agree with the first point – that shouldn’t be THE reason used to convince people to move here. I actually had an argument with someone about that recently.

YY: “Pictures of women?! Oh the horror!”

Until recently, it was acceptable to show pictures of women. I think the reason for that actually was davka because the tznius standards used to be higher, so it wasn’t a problem.

At least in terms of the ways in which their tznius was sometimes lacking, we can photoshop. The things that are issues today probably couldn’t be photoshopped.

LF:” +1

I think it’s important to add that there are many aspects to tznius, and while we may be better than they were in certain aspects of tznius, it seems to me that we may have a lot to learn from them in other aspects.

There are the technical halachos of covering knees, etc. but there is the other aspect of making sure the style is a tzniusdik style. That is also part of hilchos tznius, even though the Shulchan Aruch can’t possibly dileniate every possible style that might be invented.

My impression is that they excelled in the second aspect of tznius.

Of course, both are important and we should strive to dress tzniusly in both ways.

lightbrite- it’s not about today’s standards. The Halacha always was that a married lady’s hair must be covered, knees must be covered and sleeves must be uptil or covering the elbows. This is how Jewish women dressed for thousands of years. Actually, throughout most of Jewish history, they were far more tznius than they are today.

It is only recently that the tznius standards have fallen. I am referring to 1940 as recent. In light of thousands of years of Jewish history, that is recent. Remember, the Bais Yaakov movement was started precisely because the Jewish girls were starting to go off the Derech. The Bais Yaakov movement, when it first started, was almost like a kiruv movement. The girls were not necessarily that strong religiously when they first came.

Amen!

LB- you are an amazing person and whoever marries you will be very lucky! I wish you much hatzlacha in finding the right guy at the right time – someone whom you can have a healthy relationship with, grow together with, and of course, be very happy with!

Hatzlacha!

for real? Have you ever eaten it? Is it any good?