Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
“I do not know the particulars of the situation but have you ever considered having a friend call your daughters references for a “test” call? While unpleasant, it is better than the alternative…”
Just ask a sheilah first as to whether it’s allowed in terms of hilchos loshon hora. I recently read in Sefer Chofetz Chaim that something like that may be assur. (I don’t remember if that was the exact scenario, but I think it was either that or something similar).
“My understanding is that if you want protection that you can consider Hishtadlus, the minimum of being Frum is Shomer Shabbos!”
Every Mitzvah that every Jew does counts – and counts tremendously. Not doing one Mitzvah doesn’t take away from the fact that you are doing another Mitzvah. If someone speaks Loshon Hora, his keeping Shabbos still counts, and if someone else is careful not to speak Loshon Hora or to keep kosher, those things count even if he doesn’t keep Shabbos.
If someone puts on Tefillin once in his life, it is a Mitzvah. If the government grants exemptions to Yeshiva Bochurim, they are doing a Mitzvah. In fact, I think a certain Gadol may have said that it is in that zchus that they have protection from Hashem (and no, that is not zionism – it doesn’t mean the government should have been created in the first place, but any Mitzvos they do still count despite any aveiros that they do.)
“I don’t know of one case where social pressure caused a husband to give a Get. The only thing that is accomplished is that the husband has been embarrassed. It should be noted that the second Bais HaMekdash was destroyed because Bar Kamtza was embarrassed even though he was an evil man. It should also be noted that one who embarrasses his fellow Jew loses his portion in the next world.”
That would only apply if he embarrasses someone when he is not allowed to (which is most of the time). If it’s a situation in which he is halachically required to, it would not apply. I believe there are situations in which a Beis Din may be required to embarrass someone publicly.It’s not a topic I’m so up on, but I think that I have heard stories from the past.
If someone is chayiv misa, they are obviously being embarrassed publicly, so clearly there are cases in which Beis Din can publicly embarrass someone. Nowadays, it’s probably much more complicated, but it’s possible that there are situations today where they are allowed to.
sorry, I thought it had disappeared – I looked in the wrong place. And I already explained that there was no contradiction – sorry if you didn’t understand my explanation, but I’m not explaining again.
“k, I thought so, just checking.”
“Why? Checking for what?”
“because you seemed to be implying that’s not what he was saying. So I didn’t know if it was clear to everyone, and I wanted to make sure it was clear to Lenny since I sense his opinion is important to him, and he is likely to listen to him.”
“Not sure what the point was of your first 2 paragraphs”
“The point of the first two paragraphs was the part you disagreed with that you were trying to say he didn’t say…just saying”
Since his words mysteriously disappeared, I can longer comment on precisely what he said. However, I do know that the reason I asked him what his point was was precisely because he sounded like he was saying those words in order to argue with someone and I didn’t know who in the world he was arguing with, since he wasn’t saying anything that contradicted what anyone else was saying!
All he said was that IF the Rabbanim say that he should stay married, then he should do so. I think that we all agree with that, and I think it is important to point that out to Lenny as well, so he will know that is one possible outcome. He needs to be aware that there are different possibilities regarding what the Rabbanim might say and he has to be ready to agree with all of them.
“wishful thinking”
? DY, Joseph, Ubiquitin, and I all agree that Lenny should listen to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. Where is the wishful thinking? (there were probably others as well, and if so, I apologize for leaving you out – I can’t keep track of everyone).
k, I thought so, just checking. Not sure what the point was of your first 2 paragraphs – who were you responding to?
“It is life. ????”
? Is that Yiddish or something?
“Twelb minus one.”
lol. glad to hear you’re back to making jokes.
“I was going with the normal definition of Shomer Shabbos or Not!”
We were talking about doing Mitzvos – not whether or not people are Frum. (Anyhow, the word “frum” is a made-up word.)
All Jews do Mitzvos, whatever label you want to give them.
Abba:”perhaps we can start with reducing Loshan Horah and in turn Hashem will fight these fires for us.”
+1! So can you add something to my LH thread? It kind of disappeared to the next page already because no one’s added to it :(.
I know I could have – but I didn’t want to be the only one. Also, I’ve been too busy trying to work out divorce issues, etc.
don’t know, never had it, despite living in EY for 2 decades. Let me know when you figure it out.
“Where’d you get this notion that I’m online?!?”
oh, actually, I thought you were in the Bais. That’s why I just told everyone to look for you there.
Joseph: “When asking gittin/shalom bayis shailos, one should address the shaila to the same caliber Rov as one would submit a shaila whether to pull the plug on grandpa’s respirator. Both are pekuach nefesh shailos that aren’t asked to the corner shtiebele rabbi. And surely vet any potential shalom bayis therapist with Daas Torah prior to going to a therapist who could potentially make a bad situation worse c’v.”
For sure. So it sounds like you are agreeing that if he goes to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen, he should abide by what he says (the same as you said originally), right? (whether he says to go to a therapist, to give a Get, or to not give a get).
Lightbrite: “Thanks for asking your questions because hopefully anyone on the outside will get to this post and understand the purpose is to unite halachic observance and being close to Hashem.”
Wise words. And I think that sums up our purpose in this world quite nicely!
Person1: “LU: “In any case, I appreciate your insight and feedback which was expressed politely and sincerely as always” Thank you. The same goes to you.”
Thank you!
“Can anyone start a trend of posting pleasant topics that do not stir up these completely negative subjects with all the hot emotions that follow?”
PLEASE start one if you have an idea!
“Growing up I used to believe that my ultimate purpose in life was to become a hardcore all-the-way chareidi person.”
It’s funny – I was the opposite. I used to think that labels were terrible and all that mattered was Avodas Hashem. But then I eventually realized that that wasn’t realistic. I do have to be part of society and have a label in order to survive. And I need to survive in order to be an Eved Hashem.
I used to think “boxes” were terrible. But eventually I realized that if you have a box, you can get away with “out-of-the-box-thinking much easier.
I guess everyone starts off in a different place and t/f has to take a different path to reach the same goal. As long as we are all headed in the same (right) direction.
“Frumkeit in E”Y is not a black and white thing. It’s not our job to label people.”
Right! And the “not-Frum” people here do plenty of Mitzvos, particularly during difficult times when they know how much their zchusim are needed. When the 3 boys, zts”l were kidnapped, many people took on extra Mitzvos.
“LU -“Additionally, according to the Alshich, in E”Y, hishtadlus IS Torah & Mitzvos”
“I agree! I hate to inform you, but most of Israel is Not Frum!”
My point was that if you and I want to help EY, we can best do that by trying to do more Mitzvos as opposed to criticizing the way the Country is handling the fires.
someone told me on the other thread that the story doesn’t make sense because the boy is supposed to meet the girl to see if he likes the way she looks.
But I think that the problem may have been the way the boy phrased it, “she is not pretty” as though it is an objective fact, as opposed to “I don’t like the way she looks”.
Alternately, he may have felt this boy was too picky about looks and needed to learn a lesson.
iacisrmma -ok, sorry. I think I realized as I was posting that was probably your point, but either way, I thought it was kidai to make it clear.
I heard a story (very possibly apocrophyl or whatever the word is) that a talmid of Rav Willig’s went on a date and after the date, he told Rav Willig that he didn’t want to go out again because the girl wasn’t pretty. Rav Willig (supposedly) called him an apikorus since Chazal say that all bnos Yisrael are pretty.
I mentioned this story on another thread w/o the name, since I don’t know if it’s a true story or not. But since you mentioned Rav Shachter, I figured I would mention it, with the qualification that it may not be true.
frumnotyeshivish – +1 on both posts! I especially like your last sentence. That is one of the biggest problems and scariest parts of the internet.
The people who are the best representers of Torah Judaism are the least likely to be online. They are in the Bais Medrash. So if anyone wants to really know what Torah is really about, you know where to go.
Ubiquitin: “that isnt quite true. If ED has a source for his strange din, then Rabbis cant decide against the Shu”A”
I am assuming that the Rabbanim involved know more about these halachos than ED does (or any of the other posters here), and that is really the main message that I am trying to get across to Lenny. If the Rabbanim do in fact tell him that he has to give a Get, he shouldn’t say, “but someone in the CR told me that according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not allowed to tell me that.” He should choose a reliable Rav, and then follow what he says – after all, he chose him because he is a reliable Rav.
“And if the Rabbonim involved view (and even the OP himself suspects) the marrige is un-salvageable, then I am not sure why this discussion has more than one view”
+1! That says it all! I think that is the main thing that I, and DY and I guess you also and whoever else there was(and even Joseph agreed in the end) were trying to get across.
Believing +1! IYH, when you are in shidduchim, you will find the great guy that you deserve – a guy who has his priorities straight and values all the things that you mentioned!
ED- we decide what the Torah says based on what the Rabbis tell us. If all the Rabbanim he went to were to tell him to give his wife a get, he would have an obligation to do so (assuming he went to reliable Rabbanim). DY is 100% right about this!
It may seem strange to you that the Rabbanim might say this, but you don’t know all of the facts of the case and they do!
In any case, practically speaking, at this point, I don’t think he has really “gone to a Rav” yet. In terms of his personal Rav, I think he did say that he is following what he said. In terms of the Rav from the Beis Din, it sounds like he may not have followed what he said, but I think that he felt that he was just going to him for information or something.
In any case, now he is going to go to a Rav for real – Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen – and he is someone who is very chashuve and very reliable and has been highly recommended to him by several people. As long as he goes into him with an open mind and is willing to listen to him, even if he doesn’t understand why he is saying what he says, that is what counts.
I am assuming that he will tell him to go for marriage therapy and will recommend a good therapist, but it is possible he won’t. None of us knows the facts of the case, but the Rav he goes to will, so he should listen to that Rav and not to the anonymous posters. And imho, people should really be very careful what they say because they may be causing serious harm to people (albeit unwittingly). ?????? ???? You don’t know the facts, and Lenny is taking what you say very seriously, so be careful!
None of us really knows what is going on here. And the only advice we should be giving Lenny is to LISTEN TO THE RABBANIM, PERIOD!.
Does being supportive only mean being supportive of those people who you think are similar to you?
Also, the question is – are you looking for someone attractive or for Miss America? If you just need her to be attractive, most girls can be considered attractive (at least by many boys). The problem is when people start comparing, and they think they need the most gorgeous girl, or they have a very specific idea of what attractive means…
“I heard from Rav Hershel Schachter that there is no mitzvah to marry an “ugly” girl just to say the passuk of Sheker Hachein Vhevel Hayofi with kavanah. The girl has to be pleasing in his eyes even if she may not be pleasing to others.”
But beauty is subjective and it does not go by what Hollywood says. I have heard that there are boys who think that being heavier is more attractive, but they are afraid to admit it. I believe it was a goyish source, but kal v’chomer for Yidden (the first part) since they should be less influenced by Hollywood.
It is not objectively more attractive to be a toothpick.
for someone who claims his motto is, “??? ?? ???? ??????, ?????? ???? ??”….I’m not really seeing that here.
“Lilmod……………….
building and supporting institutions is quite different from directly supporting individuals who st and learn.”
oh, well, too bad. It’s okay, by this point, my zivug probably already has a shteller anyhow, and I’m probably not having 20 kids who need supporting.
“I am not talking about any “good old days”. My point is that all the people asking about which seminary to go to are 3Ls at Columbia Law School trying to present themselves the way they think bais Yaakov girls would.”
for real, or is that a joke?
whatever, it doesn’t really matter. Just leave it. tx.
“And actually she DID ask the men, this site (contrary to popular opinion), is frequented by both sides of the mechitza. One side generally suffices with one tenth .. due to a gemarah somewhere)”
Well since I am usually the one who answers LB’s questions… and the one who is usually interested in the Halacha questions (as opposed to all the annoying politics threads)… and the one whom everyone thought was a guy and would think so still if I hadn’t disillusioned them. (ok, so, I guess I anyhow gave up the charade when I let my sensitivity show)
Anyhow, thanks for answering, LF, MK, & MA!
Moderators – not sure why you didn’t post my last comment, but I think I want it deleted at this point. thanks!
Everyone keeps talking about the good-old-days, but no one explains what they were about.
According to LF, no one was serious; according to this thread, everyone was a third year law school student?? I’m missing something. What did things used to be like?
Thank you CL for answering my question.
Wow! Law school in 2 years! That must be intense! I heard Law school is intense as it is.
Ok, so I guess it was a joke, since obviously not everyone here is a third year law school student. So is the point that that is the type of conversations people used to have? How long ago was that? The type of past conversations people make references to or that I’ve seen don’t sound like that.
“We are the baal baatim of the world who make the money to support and build the institutions for those who sit and learn full time.”
So.. IYH, when I marry my Ben Torah, how can I get in touch with you?
“Limud, I guess for the most part we are in agreement.”
Well, I guess in that case, we all agree at this point. If you are in agreement with me, and I am in agreement with DY, and I am in agreement with Joseph, and I am in agreement with Lightbrite, and Lenny is in agreement with Joseph, then I guess according to the rules of logic, we all basically agree at this point.
I think that any disagreements here basically had to do with what the topic of conversation was about (as usual).
wow – it reappeared! Magic! The mystery of disappearing and reappearing posts…
CTL – that is interesting. But it still doesn’t make the guy a fool for thinking that it could be nurture. And it also doesn’t prove that it can’t be nurture in some cases, even if it’s not in this case.
I’m wondering if being Chinese has to do with it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fat Asian. The Filipinos in EY are also thin.
LF – I don’t know if you realize but there was an OP here with a question that seems to have disappeared… and that is what I was responding to…
If you were making fun of my comment, I do teach halacha to women, and I happen to be in the middle of Cheilik Alef of the Shulchan Aruch, so in theory I should have done Hilchos Tefillin if not for the fact that I skipped it.
I did do Netilas Yadayim and Brochos, but none of the others you mentioned.
I was kind of assuming that most men know something about hilchos Tefillin, and would be able to answer.
I still don’t know what a 3L is.
Golfer – so it used to be that everyone here had gone to Columbia Law School??!!
“JM, Abuse is a subjective term. It is not black and white. What someone might consider abuse can have more to do with his/her perception of the motives behind the actions and how it relates to him/her, than it has to do with the actual classifications of the specific actions.”
I think that was JM’s point. That is exactly why they need a therapist schooled in abuse so that he can figure out whether or not there really is abuse here. It is precisely because it is not black or white that they need someone who can tell them if this is classified as abuse or not.
And no, I am not saying that he is abusive. I am saying that his wife thinks he is, and he thinks he is not. They are going to a therapist to deal with the fact that his wife thinks he is abusive and he thinks that he is not. T/f, they need a therapist who is experienced in this.
In any case, as I have pointed out before, I am not sure that there is a clear-cut definition of abuse. And it also may be self-defeating to get too caught up in the question of what the definition of abuse is and whether or not there is abuse here. The fact is that she FEELS that she is being abused, and if he really wants to stay in this marriage, he has to accept the fact that she feels that way and figure out what he can do differently.
I don’t think the point of going to the therapist is to see who is wrong and who is right and whether or not there really is abuse. The point is to work on the marriage. That means accepting his wife’s feelings (whether or not he agrees) and seeing what he can do differently. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he is doing something objectively wrong now; what it means is that if he wants the marriage to work, he needs to be open to seeing things differently and doing something differently. If a relationship is not working out and you want it to work, then you have to do something different, imho.
All this is for the therapist to discuss with him. But he needs a therapist who is experienced in these areas. That was JM’s point, period.
In any case, I trust Rav S.B. Cohen to suggest the right therapist if he feels that therapy is in fact, called for.
Sorry, I skipped that section of the Shulchan Aruch, since I didn’t think I needed to know those halachos. You’ll have to ask one of the men in the CR this one.
“(No LH permitted please) Please, now that I’ve been schooled in LH, B”H this thread will only promote positive inquiry and insight. Thank you in advance.”
Nice, Lightbrite! +100!
“Lilmod, sorry, this one isn’t a joking matter.”
I know. Sorry. That is just how I deal with stress.
Right now, what he has decided to do is to go to Rav S.B. Cohen. Therefore, he should be encouraged to listen to what Rav S.B. Cohen tells him.
E.D. – his opening post was about what he should do if the Beis Din tells him that there is no hope for his marriage and he should give a Get but they can’t force him to do so. There was an implication that he might refuse to give a Get in that case, and that is what posters are concerned about and were responding to.