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probably cuz she’s a female (who wants to be president) and a democrat.
Actually, I think the country should be returned to the Indians. Who gave the Americans the right to steal it from them? And why do we celebrate the fact that they stole it? It doesn’t sound very nice to me.
My understanding was (and is) that the shaela Rabbi was very strongly in favor of a Get.
“But aside from the Shaila Rabbi, the Rebbeim aren’t exaclty lined up & urging me to give a Get either.” What Rebbeim could possibly be lining up and urging you to give a Get? You only spoke to one (or two, depending how you count). And I think you should only be speaking to one (or maybe two, 3 at the most).
“The shaila Rabbi was all about what’s easiest… just give her a Get if that’s what she wants” It sounds like he thought this was the right thing to do. If he thought it were right to stay married, he wouldn’t tell you not to just because it’s harder. He may have presented it that way because he saw you didn’t want to give a get, and he was trying to convince you.
Keep in mind that when you ask a sheilah, you are answered according to the way in which the sheilah was asked. You didn’t ask “what is the right thing to do?” So the Rav didn’t phrase his answer that way since he saw that wasn’t your main concern. He sensed (from the way you asked the question) that your main concern was “what will be good for me?” so he answered you accordingly. I think that if you had phrased the question, “what is the right thing to do from a Torah perspective?”, he may have answered you differently.
I’m glad you are going to a Frum therapist. However,I do think it’s a good idea to go to someone who was recommended by a reliable Rav, since you never know. Just because he is Frum and a Rabbi doesn’t necessarily make him a good therapist. But the fact that he is Frum and a Rabbi and lives in Lakewood does relieve me.
You may want to call Relief to check if he is someone whom they recommend, and/or to find out who they do recommend. Relief is a Lakewood-based organization that gives therapist referrals. They are very well known and accepted, and they do thorough research on the therapists. The phone number is in the Lakewood phonebook and I think it is available online. If you can’t find it, I can look it up for you. I think the moderators would allow that – I think I have already posted it on a previous thread, actually.
Therapy is expensive. I’m not sure of price ranges, but I think that $150 may be considered a good price (or at least average).
I am glad you are being proactive. I don’t think that therapy is a bad idea. It’s what I personally would have recommended. But I am not a Rav, and unlike the Rabbanim you spoke to, I never met with you or your wife and don’t know the details and am not qualified or experienced in these matters. So my hesitancy comes from the fact that they are advising you differently. But in any case, it certainly doesn’t hurt to see a therapist one time and to see what he says while you are waiting for Rav S.B. Cohen to get back to you. Just try to check him out with Relief. Or maybe ask your Rabbi if he ever heard of him.
I would just add that I once spoke to someone from Relief about what they do and I am pretty sure that he told me that there are a small percentage of therapists who are good. So I really would recommend checking this therapist out. The wrong therapist could potentially do more harm than good (and take your money anyhow).
Hatzlacha Rabba!
They were accepted everywhere – no one said they can’t daven there, they just said they can’t daven from a phone.
If they switched shuls because of that, I hope they learn to get their priorities straight.
how is it pronounced, and what does it mean? I’ve always wondered.
but you can go to sleep and then you won’t feel it.
It’s also a good idea to be in touch with your school about which seminaries you are applying to. Many schools have someone in the school whose job it is to deal with it. Some high schools are in touch with the seminaries and know beforehand who is getting in, and sometimes the decision is actually made by the high school. If that is the case, they may not tell you, so it is a good idea to be in touch with them just in case they are the ones responsible for the decision.
I would imagine that this is less likely to be the case in out-of-town schools, but you never know.
Word of advice: when applying to seminary, make sure to apply to at least 3 seminaries. It can be very hard to get in even if you are the best girl in the world, and you can’t count on getting into your first choice or even your first two choices.
Some schools are harder to get into than others, but most schools are at least somewhat difficult to get into – there are tons of girls applying to most schools and they can’t accept everyone.
“Because orange was not the name of a color until the fruit became popular. The color was named after it. Before that, the color we now call orange was considered a shade of red.”
They must have had a hard time describing the rainbow: Rry G. Biv
“The story of Bar Kamtza shows that Hashem punishes the Jewish People even for the embarrassment of an Evil Man such as Bar Kamtza.”
True. And I never said anything that is a contradiction to that statement.
“This why Bais Din would be stupid to authorize it as they gain nothing by authorizing it but can lose fined so severely that they loose everything they own.”
If they rule that way, then it is not stupid. If it’s stupid, then they don’t rule that way.
“Lilmod, if a wife wants a divorce, and the husband hasn’t done anything terriby wrong, would there ever be a valid reason for the husband to say no?”
You have to ask a Rav (a real one -not an online one). Every situation is different. As a general rule, if one person really wants to get divorced, I think it would be the right thing to do. And beneficial to everyone in the long run. As a certain Rebbetzin I knew used to say, “better 4 happy people than 2 unhappy people.”.
But again, you should be speaking to Rabbanim, and not to online posters. There are too many people here answering your questions, people whom you have no idea who they are, how intelligent they are and whether or not they have any idea what they are talking about. It is too tempting to choose to listen to those whose advice you like whether or not it is the right thing to do.
There are also boys who really don’t care about looks. When my friend’s brother was in shidduchim, he didn’t care about looks.
He ended up marrying a girl who was very overweight.
“Features like eyes and noses are less subjective than weight and color.”
I think that is a good point, and may be how we can understand DY’s point. I have learned that there are certain facial features that babies find more attractive than others. I think it has to do with smoother features that are easier to look at.
I don’t think that babies care about weight. I think that weight is something very subjective, as can be seen by the fact that it is so society-influenced.
“beauty is subjective”
Daas Torah: “When the Torah describes some people as beautiful, it has meaning. Obviously, there is objective beauty.”
good point. So I guess there is some objectivity involved, but I think there is also a lot of subjectivity.
I think there are some people who are objectively beautiful (everyone or almost everyone would think they are beautiful), but with a lot of people, it’s more subjective, and some will think they are attractive and some won’t.
I would have thought that there are some people who are objectively ugly, but most people get married anyhow, so clearly someone finds them attractive.(the only people who might not be able to get married because of their looks are people who are disfigured, but that is a completely different category).
LU -“I think a certain Gadol may have said that it is in that zchus that they have protection from Hashem”
Well I think that they did. I don’t think anyone was killed in the fires!
Boruch Hashem! maybe this was just meant as a warning. So let’s continue working on Torah & Mitzvos, so we won’t need a follow-up warning, c”v…
In terms of any physical damage, we have to believe that whatever happened was min haShamayim, period! No one can cause anything to happen – only Hashem!
“ever since I left the CR no”
methinks you are still here. unless you are a figment of my imagination.
This sentence can’t be true until you go, and then you won’t be here to write it.
Your point being..? A riddle does usually have an answer…
In case you don’t know what a riddle is, let me explain: The definition of a riddle is basically a joke that has a question and an answer. Someone asks a question, sometimes starting with the word what, for example, “What does a fireman say,etc?”, then you are supposed to say, “What?” and then they tell you the answer which is supposed to be funny.
got it?
Alternatively, instead of saying “what?”, you can try to guess the answer, like I do in my second post above.
Torah613Torah – how do you even so many of the people? Even if I could figure out who people are, I think there is almost no one here whom I could possibly know in real life.
My impression though is that there are a lot of men from New York here. So I guess if you are a man from New York, it is more likely that you know several people here.
You think so many people lie (about the minor details)?
“In this case they are trying to embarrass him as pressure to give a Get. Also is this social pressure sanctioned by Bais Din?” “I am not saying it’s 100% prohibited to use social pressure in this case. What I am saying is that it’s a minefield, as you can lose your portion in the next world and should be avoided.”
If the Beis Din says to do so, then it is a Mitzvah to do so, and you are not allowed to worry about losing your portion in the next world. If you refuse to listen to the Beis Din, you will be greatly punished in the next world.
The concept of losing your portion in the next World for embarrassing someone should not come into the equation. The only question one should be asking is: “What does the Beis Din/Rabbanim say to do?” If you do the right thing, you will be rewarded. If you don’t, you will be punished.
“According to you the destruction should have been caused by something else”
Where do you see that in anything I wrote?
This sentence, “I believe you should never embarrass someone without a constructive purpose.” is not a contradiction to this sentence: “I believe there are situations in which a Beis Din may be required to embarrass someone publicly.”
In fact they are the same thing. If the Beis Din is supposed to embarrass someone in a specific situation, it is because there is a constructive purpose. (which does not mean that it is allowed any time there is a constructive purpose, but in order to be allowed, there must be a constructive purpose.
how about, “Ouch!”
What?
“Date a smoker.”
My friend’s younger sister was overweight. She got married at 21 (I think) to a great guy who happened to be overweight and smoke.
She found out about the smoking on the third date. Her father had been nifter when she was little, and the guy asked her how father died. She responded, “He had a heart attack because he was overweight and smoked”. So the guy said, “So I guess you must hate guys who are fat and smoke (like me)?” She said, “Why should I hate people who are fat? I’m fat myself.”
I don’t know how she felt about the smoking part, but my friend realized she was marrying the guy based on the way she responded to the fat part.
However, I don’t think that being overweight means that you have to marry a smoker. To my knowledge, I only once went out with a guy who smoked, and he was totally not for me.
Isn’t it in Pirkei Avos? Or are you talking about something else?
“and certainly today when some are controlled by courtiers (askanim)”
I don’t think we are allowed to say (or think) such as thing. Sounds like “bizui Talmidei Chachamim” to me.
Obviously, if you hear something from an unreliable source, you shouldn’t listen to it. But if it known that the Gedolim did say something, we have to listen.
But the main issue is still the one I mentioned above that Hashem decides our lifespan. As long as you aren’t doing something assur. And since living in Eretz Yisrael is a Mitzvah, you will only gain by it (unless there is a reason that you, personally are not supposed to be living here – for example, you have a responsibility to consider where your kids’ chinuch will be better).
“The average US lifespan is brought down notably by inner-city/minority drug use and crime that Jewish life isn’t affected much by”
We are affected by it to some extent. Also, the suicide rate is probably much higher in the US, which unfortunately is also true of the Jewish population there.
My real point is that there are so many factors affecting a person’s lifespan, so you can’t really say that Israel is dangerous because of a few terrorist attacks. Even within Israel, terrorist attacks do not come close to being the main source of death. Car accidents are much more common, but no one considers it dangerous to live in Israel because of that. And no one avoids crossing the street or taking a taxi because of it.
Statistically speaking, the chances of being killed in a terrorist attack or even of being killed in a car accident are negligible.
Nu, so do we get to find out what the riddle is?
I was commenting on the comments before mine. Also, brakes give you a break.
From what I have heard, Meohr is a great school, but for a very different type of girl than Bnos Sara. It is for girls who didn’t quite fit in to the Bais Yaakov system, whereas B’nos Sara is for really good out-of-town Bais Yaakov girls.
My information on Meohr is a few years old, but I doubt that has changed.
“In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err.”
Whether or not they can “err”, we are not “erring” by listening to them. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing and t/f no harm will befall us.
“1. I dispute your claim about the majority of the gedolim. In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err. They erred when they told Jews not ot leave Europe.”
Who decided that they erred? You?
The best break is to go to sleep – 1/60th of death – Neshama returns to Shamayim and comes back revived – meanwhile, you get to taste blissful unconsciousness before returning to the world refreshed and ready to continue serving G-d and helping mankind (as part of your service to G-d).
Statistically speaking, the average life span is higher in Israel than in the United States, so apparently it is safer to live here.
Hashem decides how long our lives are. No one else can determine that. If someone dies in a terrorist attack, it means that they were meant to die and would have done in the US if they had chosen to live there.
The only exception would be (possibly) if the person chose to live somewhere that was declared a dangerous place by the Gedolim and they said that one is forbidden to go there.
If someone is going to die anyhow, it is way better to die in Eretz Yisrael, al Kiddush Hashem (and receive all the reward that entails) than to die a meaningless death in chutz l’aretz.
“In the meantime, I’m goin to contact some counselors from a frum therapist referral website and see if they have experience working on wives who have “checked out.””
Lenny, can you hear me out for a moment?
You already asked a Rav (the Rav from the beis din) what you should be doing. After speaking to both you and your wife, he told you that you should get divorced. That really makes two Rabbis who told you to get divorced since your Rav had told you to go to the Rav from the Beis Din in the first place.
You told him that you would rather listen to the anonymous posters in the Coffee Room who do not know anything about your situation, and go to a marriage therapist in order to convince your wife that she is wrong for wanting to get divorced.
You then posted in the Coffee Room asking people what would happen to you if you refuse to listen to the Beis Din and give your wife a Get (in a situation in which their hands are tied halachically and they can’t actually FORCE a Get on you – they can only tell you that it is what you are supposed to be doing).
I found these last two facts rather disturbing. First of all, I was disturbed by the fact that you didn’t listen to the Rav from the Beis Din. And yes, even though I have never been in the situation, I do understand that it would have been a very difficult thing to do, and the natural thing to do is to try to rationalize and find a way out of listening. And no, I do not know what I would have done in the same situation, and perhaps, I would have done the same. So, no, I am not judging. It is not my place to judge, and since I am not G-d, it would be impossible for me to do so.
What I can do is look at the facts, and say what you should have done whether or not it is difficult and whether or not most people in this situation would have been able to stand up to such a difficult test and do the right thing.
So without being blinded by emotion, it seems pretty clear to me that if you speak to a Rav (or 2 Rabbanim) and they tell you to do something, you are obligated to listen to them (and to forget about what the anonymous posters in the Coffee Room said) even if they do not have the power to physically force you to do so.
However, I understood that your next step was going to be to go to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen instead of listening to the Rabbanim with whom you already spoke. Even though, it is probably more appropriate to listen to the Rabbanim with whom you already spoke, I felt that I shouldn’t say anything at that point, since Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen is a very reliable and wise Talmid Chacham, and as long as you were willing to listen to him (the 2nd or 3rd Rav you are going to), and not keep searching until you find a Rav who will say exactly what you want him to say, I feel like it’s not such a problem.
My understanding was that you would listen to whatever he told you, whether it would be to go for marriage therapy or to give your wife a Get. I thought that if he did tell you to go for marriage therapy, you would go to the marriage therapist that He, as a Rav, recommended.
So I understand that you didn’t get through to him yet. These things can take time. First you have to be able to reach him by phone. Then, presumabl, you have to find a time when he can meet by you. He has to speak to both you and your wife. Then he has to make a decision.
Understandably, you are impatient. You want this taken care of already. But, you have to be patient. You can’t just look for a therapist online on your own. We have a Torah, and we have Rabbanim who guide us as to how to listen to the Torah. Not every therapist is someone who would be recommended by our Rabbanim. Not every therapy works according to ideas that fit with Torah, or with common sense for that matter. There are a lot of really bad therapists out there who can make things much, much worse.
I am not against psychology or therapy. I am very in favor of it. In fact, I almost went into the field. But, you can’t just go to any therapist. You need to speak to someone wise who can tell you which, if any, therapist you should be going to. That is why you are going to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. So be patient. Wait and see how he tells you to proceed.
And, yes, there are many things that one can get away with in this world. Look at Hitler, yemach shemo, l’havdil. Look at all of the Arab terrorists. But we do not live in this world in order to see what we can get away with .
We live in the world to do the right thing, to do Hashem’s Will. So please, Lenny, for the sake of your portion in the World to Come, which is ready and waiting for you, and for the sake of your wife’s peace and sanity, and for the sake of your children who deserve an example of a father who bends his will to Hashem’s Will, do the right thing. Wait till you have a chance to speak to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and he tells you what the right thing to do is, what Hashem wants you to do.
And, no you will not find the answers online. And no, Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen will not be found online. The real Torah Greats, the people whose advice you should be seeking and following will not be found online. (or at least it is extremely unlikely).
I don’t think there is anything more that can be said. I wish you hatzlacha in finding out what Hashem wants you to do and in having the strength to do it. I know it will be very hard, but the harder it is, the more reward you will ultimately receive although it may take a while in coming. But it will be worth it in the end. I wish you the best.
In “Chofetz Chaim, A Lesson A Day” by Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz & Rav Shimon Finkelman, footnote #113,in the name of Rav Hutner Zatsal.
Jewishvirtuallibrary.orgl is not a recognized source.
From what you are describing, Darchei Binah fits the bill in many ways. I’m not sure if the girls are out-of-towny or not. Michlalah doesn’t sound like it’s for you from what you are describing. I know very little about Binas, and only a teeny bit about Machon Raya. The teeny bit I know about Machon Raya is from years ago, so things can change. It was academic, which I would guess hasn’t changed.
What about Bnos Sara? it is extremely out-of-town. meaning out-of-town-BY. The school is really warm, and the girls are very sweet, aidel, great middos, tznius, not at all jappy, very Frum, out of town Yeshivish. It’s on Neve campus which is a great experience and a really nice campus. They get the best girls in terms of middos. The girls are definitly growth-oriented. The learning is both hashkafic and textual. There is work, but not too much pressure. There are several papers during the year, so the girls work hard on those, but other than that, there is not too much work. If warmth, good middos, and out-of-townish are important to you, it is one of the top schools in those areas.
You might want to look into Bnos Avigail. All I know about is from the website, and you can check that out yourself.
Binas and Machon Raaya may be for you – I just don’t know enough about them.
Lenny, did you get through to Rav S.B.Cohen yet?
potentially, it could. But if you feel there is something you need to work on, you should do so in addition to the bracha. Maybe the bracha will give you the strength to work on these things.
Wow. You sound like you have a very good attitude. Shkoyach!
Kapusta – ok. I wouldn’t have thought of it, but I’m pretty sure I saw something like this in Sefer Chafetz Chaim recently. But I don’t remember the details. It’s the type of thing most people wouldn’t think of, but when you think about it, you can see why it’s assur. In any case, it does need a sheilah. and your case may have had some details that were different.
LB- it sounds like you definitely need guidance. Do you have any kind of mentor, therapist, Rabbi, or Rebbetzin who knows you well, has a good sense of psychology but also is knowledgeable in Torah (or at least knows enough to be able to guide you)?
It sounds like a Frum therapist or at least a therapist who is sensitive to religious issues (and maybe would be able to consult with your Rav to help determine what you should and shouldn’t be doing right now) is something that you definitely need right now. Honestly, I think that is the real issue here. It sounds like maybe the Coffee Room has become a kind of replacement for a therapist for you. And that is not a good idea.
“Per halacha, Jewish Press, D. Carnegie, etc… it’s impossible to make someone else happy.”
It’s definitely possible to make someone else happy. The halacha says so very clearly. A husband has an obligation to make his wife happy.
Regarding the Jewish Press and Dale Carnegie – they are not sources. I don’t know anyone who would use the Jewish Press as a source. Dale Carnegie is very wise, but even he is not a source.
In any case, they were probably talking about someone who is depressed (and not because of you). But a husband definitely has the power to make his wife happy in most cases.
good point DY.
Lightbrite – no, they did post everything. I was just confused about something – not important.
btw, if you are talking about the photoshopping issue, I think I told you that I wasn’t commenting on your asking the question in the first place – I was commenting on some of the responses. And once you got the responses that you got, I felt that you should either assume that the positive ones were accurate or write to the publisher to find out from them.
In terms of your asking the question in the first place – I have no idea if it was allowed or not. I think if it’s concerning you, that is something that you should ask so that you will know the answer and not have to be bothered about it.
I understand your need to express yourself – part of hilchos L”H is that one can talk about things that he needs to talk about, but there are conditions involved. One important condition has to do with who you are allowed to discussed it with. There are halachos regarding choosing the most appropriate person to talk to. I wonder if this is the best place for some of these discussions – but again, I think you should discuss that with a Rav. First try to think about what alternatives you may have, and then discuss it with him.
LB- why don’t you ask your LOR about it? Or call the Shmiras Halashon hotline. There is a hotline that you can call to ask hilchos lashon hora questions. I think it’s available every night from app. 9 – 10:30. You can find the number online.
Just make sure when you ask the question that you explain the exact situation – the way you feel and the types of things that you want to ask, and where you are asking the question, etc. If you feel that you need to say something for psychological reasons, that can make it permissible. Also, if you are trying to find out the answer to a question, etc.
You may also want to think about (or ask a sheilah about) if this is really the best place for your questions or not. If you have nowhere else to go, maybe it is. But maybe some questions are better off being asked to a Rav, if you have one whom you can speak to. It’s something you may want to think about.
Believing – +1 is a Coffee Room term. I think it means that you agree with the person and like what they wrote. I don’t know where the term came from – I just kept noticing that people do it here, so I started doing it too.