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I loved the food there. But I might have different tastes than you.
I’m not sure what type of girls go to MT, but I had a vague impression that they might actually be more your type than TD. I actually also had the impression that Sharfman’s girls might be more your type than TD, but I am really not sure of any of this.
Even if I could get more information about that, I’m not sure if I’m comfortable posting it online. I’ve been trying to stick to neutral subjective comparisons of schools, but I’m concerned that it may be LH to start comparing how modern girls in different schools are (since that may be considered objectively negative). It’s the type of thing that would be okay in a 1-on-1 conversation (since it’s for toeles) but online may be different.
cool. I like hearts.
“MW13 is spot on. How can we say divorce is too high when no one states or even estimates what the divorce rate is? From personal expereince, I believe the divorce rate in the frum community is around 5-6%.”
I wonder what the rate is. It would be hard to do an accurate statistic, because how would you figure it out? The numbers are probably very different for people who are currently in their 40’s or older and people who are in the 20’s.
Also, within the Frum community, there are so many communities, and the numbers may be very different within different communities.
5-6% sounds really high. I don’t think that is true of the people I know personally.
“I am entitled to mine”
So are we.
Thank you for responding to our opinions by telling us what your opinion is based on. It is helpful to know where it is coming from.
It is possible that there have been specific cases in which people got married too soon and if they had gone out longer would have realized there were problems. I wasn’t arguing that that can happen. (Although, even in those cases, I am wondering if you have reason to believe that if they had gone out longer, it would have made a difference. And is it possible that better checking have produced the same results?)
What I am arguing with is stating that as a general rule. I know way too many people who went out less than 10 times and are very happily married, so I do not feel that it is right to knock a system that works well for many communities and individuals, even if it doesn’t work for everyone.
The percentages of divorce are statistically higher in communities in which people date for longer. The goyish world has many more divorces than the Frum world does. Within the Frum world, my impression is that the more insulated societies have less divorces and those are the ones that generally date less. So I find it hard to make a correlation as a general rule although there may be individual cases in which it would have helped to have gone out more.
Bottom line: everyone has to know himself and know what is best for him. For many people and communities, going out less than 10 times works. For others it doesn’t. Do what’s right for you.
I definitely agree with your first paragraph. Shkoyach! You make a lot of very good and important points.
Regarding the rest, please keep in mind that some of these comments were made in response to specific details about the case that were given over. There are a lot of posts with a lot of words on a lot of threads and sometimes people miss certain facts and then don’t understand where others are coming from, and they think they are being extreme when they aren’t.
We may not know all the details, but there are several things that are known. Some of the statements that were made were made because of those facts.
On the other hand, unfortunately, there have been some statements that should not have been made and were only made because the ones making them missed certain facts about the situation that were given over.
We are dealing with a very serious situation here, and people do have to be very careful about what they say.
That being said, everyone who has been commenting seems to be doing so out of a sincere desire to help, and I think that everyone really is putting a lot of thought into this, and I think that most of the comments and advice have probably been very helpful. It certainly is very nice that everyone is taking the situation to heart and trying to do what they can to help.
LB- thanks for letting me know. I hope you enjoy it!
And thanks for the blessings. btw, what does the arrow with the number 3 mean? I’ve been wondering.
MMY is more academic than Michlalah. It’s also a very different style of learning. Nearly half the time is spent on Chevrusa learning, and you have Night Seder at night until close to 10:00 pm. Michlalah is classes and homework and you finish at a normal hour (no night seder).
What’s wrong with being on Neve Campus? I always think of that as a maaleh. It’s a really gorgeous campus, and there are lots of other seminaries there. It’s also a nice experience to get to know the Neve girls.
wow, I didn’t realize the deadline was so soon. I obviously won’t be able to find out before you apply, but like you said, you can decide afterwards. Maybe at the interviews, you’ll be able to get more of an idea of what the schools are like.
Geordie – I’m confused – if the time zone is supposed to start in Yerushalayim, why would it be 90 degrees East or 180 degrees East and West? Shouldn’t it just start in Yerushalayim period? I imagine you won’t be able to explain this to me in a post – I probably need a map with lines to have any idea what you are talking about.
Regarding the astronauts, I think I also may have seen a shita that it goes by where you came from, but I thought there was also an opinion that it goes by Eretz Yisrael. But I’m not sure.
“I suppose because when the original people settled there, they arrived by boat and possibly weren’t aware of the days or the different shitos in the rishonim. So they just kept Shabbos on Saturday like it is in most places of the settled world.”
I still find that hard to understand. I’m not saying you are wrong – I just don’t get it.
Anyhow, thanks for all of the lengthy explanations. It is fascinating!
btw, when is the deadline for seminary applications?
Meno – wow! so it’s really a word -cool! And all this time, people have been correcting me. So why in the world does everyone say “Aren’t I?” Where on earth did that come from?
Futuregirl: “Lakewoodwife: Ok, then I don’t think Sharfmans is for me – I definitely wouldn’t call myself OTD.”
You may want to check that out, because that is not the impression I got from the friend whom I had spoken to about it. If I have a chance, I will try to ask her again because I don’t remember exactly what she said. I wonder if Lakewoodwife is using the term OTD differently?
Also, did we talk about Midreshet Tehilla? I don’t remember if we did or what you said about it. It sounds like it’s similar to the other schools you are talking about.
“There are numerous reasons starting with the shidduch process itself. We expect two people who barely know each other make a decision in 3-4 weeks after meeting less than 10 times; get engaged and barely talk/see each other during the engagement period and then get married and expect everything to work.”
I don’t think it’s fair to blame it on that. So many people only meet a few times beforehand and have great marriages. And many people know each other for a while or didn’t meet through the Shidduch system and end up divorced.
I see no correlation between how long people go out and how well their marriages turn out. Actually, I do see a correlation. I think that people who go out shorter are more likely to have better marriages.
People should go out for the amount of time that works for them and not be judgmental of those who do things differently. There is no right amount of time. It has to do with the individual as well as the community the person is coming from.
Yichusdik – thank you for your insights as someone who actually knows something about the topic from first-hand experience. It was enlightening to hear your perspective.
It seems like you are saying that the main factor is communication skills. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for sharing.
Meno, I understood what you meant. What I meant is that I always thought (but I could be wrong) that making the decision to get divorced as well as actually going through with it are very difficult things to do for most people, on an emotional level. Actually, I shouldn’t say people, since I am really just thinking of women.
I know on a personal level, I have such a difficult time dropping friendships even when I know they should be dropped. Which obviously doesn’t begin to compare. I just think that since women tend to be emotional and are supposed to be better “connectors” than men are, that it would be really difficult to make the decision to break off the connection with someone with whom you are so connected whether or not you want to be.
Even in an abuse situation, there are psychological reasons why it may be even more difficult to “unattach” yourself enough to be able to get divorced.
I know people, both men and women, who had horrible marriages but didn’t get divorced for 14-20+ years because it was such a hard thing to do.
In addition to the fact that it is very hard emotionally to break the connection from someone whom you are so connected to, you also have to take into account the fact that the spouse may not want to get divorced, so then the one who wants to get divorced feels very guilty about it and is reluctant to do so in addition to the fact that they have to convince them.
Additionally, anyone who has kids is going to feel very guilty about doing this to their kids and will worry about the effects on the kids. And they may be terrified about how they will manage financially. If the wife was home with the kids while her husband supported her, now she has to find a way to support the kids. Or maybe the husband was in Kollel, and now he will have to find a way to pay child support. Whatever the situation, finances always become very complicated in a divorce.
And the idea of having to manage on one’s own is always very scary, even in those situations in which the other spouse wasn’t really there anyhow.
And, in addition, even though divorce has become very common, I would imagine that there still is a certain amount of stigma and embarrassment.
I just see that there are a lot of people who stay in bad marriages for many years. However, I am talking about people my age and older. Maybe in this generation, it really has become different. But, I am sure that many of the things I wrote still apply.
I think what ZD is saying is somewhat different from what you are saying, Meno, even though it sounds the same. Both of you are saying that there are more divorces today as a result of the fact that it has become easier to get divorced.
However, the difference is that ZD is saying that the marriages are the same nowadays, and these are the types of people who really should have gotten divorced in the olden days but didn’t. In other words, the high divorce rate is a positive sign, since it means that people who are being abused now have a way out.
But Meno is saying that there are people who would have been fine before and now have problems, so the high divorce rate is a bad thing.
I think there is truth to both. When divorce first started becoming more acceptable, most divorces were probably because of ZD’s reasoning. But now that the numbers seem to be getting out-of-hand, it is more likely that there are many cases like what Meno’s saying or for the kinds of reasons I gave.
Although, I do find it hard to believe that anyone finds it so easy to get divorced, unless they don’t have kids yet or maybe have one or two.
I would think the main reason for the high divorce rate is that people have more issues today or don’t know how to work things out, but not that they think that divorce is so easy. But I could be wrong. You probably know more about it than I do now, Meno, because your wife is a marriage therapist.
maybe he just became Frum and he doesn’t know anything about davening.
wow, you are a virtual tzaddik!
ZD- there is definitely truth to that, but at this point, divorce has become so common, I think it is hard to say that that is the only reason.
Also, I know of a lot of cases in which that was not the case.
Meno, true, but what I meant is that people are more likely to end up with a problem with other pas haba b’kisnim since they usually don’t bentch (and didn’t wash and say hamotzi before they started), and that is a bigger problem with other pas haba b’kisnin.
Also, l’maaseh, most of the time it is a safek even with other pas haba b’kisnin because even if you eat 4 k’baitzas, if you are not full, it is still a safeik. And I still haven’t figured out what the definition of full is even though I tried looking into it and asking sheilahs about it.
Rav Bodner told me that Rav Aharon Kotler zatsal never ate a full danish because he considered it a safeik.
It’s also a safeik if you eat enough together with the pas habah b’kisnin to be considered a meal but the pas haba b’kisnin is less than 4 k’baitzas. I asked Rav Chaim Kanievsky about this and he said to say Mezonos, but I didn’t ask him if a yarei Shamayim would do this in the first place. I think that according to Rav Moshe Feinstein, you are not supposed to do that.
One interesting fact that I have observed. When I look around me at people I know who are happily married and those who are not, often there does not seem to be any correlation between how good someone’s marriage is and how “deserving” you would think the person is of a good marriage based on their middos and emotional health.
My impression is that being happily married is a skill, and there are certain things you have to know. Some people learn these things from observing their parents or other role models, some people learn them from a good Chosson or Kallah teacher, and some never learn them. I think there are people who don’t have good relationships with other people and/or may not be such good people, but they know what it takes to make sure they have a good relationship with their spouse.
Maybe it’s because in general, people have so many more emotional and relationship problems nowadays.
I would imagine that for those who have grown up in the technological generation, knowing how to communicate has probably gotten much more complicated.
Also, exposure to secular influences such as movies can definitely be terrible for a marriage.
I don’t know what the problems are in most cases – those are just some possibilities.
“Lilmod, the shaila rabbi said he recommended I give a get… when I said I would first have to try counseling, he got my wife to agree to five sessions. But his preference was to just give her a get if she really wanted it.”
okay, as long as you are keeping in touch with a Rav throughout the process and following through with what he tells you to do.
Meno – glad you joined the conversation since you seem very knowledgeable on the topic.
Any advice as to how Lenny can know if this is a good therapist or not?
“And Lilmod, the sheila Rabbi we went to, who came highly recommended from our Rabbi, had your position on just giving the Get if that’s what she really wants.”
I’m confused. I thought you said in the last post that he did tell you to go for therapy. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying now that you are not listening to what the Torah said to do. I may have misunderstood you, so please clarify. Thanks!
“Joseph reads shakespeare?!”
He’s actually quite worldy – he knows all the words to “the wicked witch is dead”. I don’t even know that.
Several people seem to be missing lately. Gofish has been gone since the chauvinism discusions.I’ve been worried about her.
I don’t think that Wolf has been around lately, or am I wrong about that?
Some others seem to not post as much – I think Person1 used to be around more – but maybe he is just busy. Maybe people just had more time in the summer.
” He pointed out that in all resident communities of places that fall in doubt, they keep Shabbos on the day that is Saturday in that place.”
Why would it be okay to do that?
It’s the same problem with any pas haboh b’kisnin such as cookies or cake, or certain cereals, etc. Sufganiyot are actually less of a problem, since they are deep fried.
It still may be true that a Yareh Shamayim would avoid it, but that would only make sense if he is also careful with all the other pas habah b’kisnin foods. The only difference might be that some people may find it easier to eat a “shiur” of sufganiyot than other pas habah b’kisnin. Personally, I find it is very easy with any pas habah b’kisnin to eat a questionable amount.
Again, if you do what Hashem wants, you don’t get punished, but if you don’t, then you do. Hashem makes the rules, and He decides who gets punished.
If you listen to Beis Din, you won’t get punished, but if you don’t, you will.
You don’t lose your World-to-Come for embarrassing someone when Hashem says to, and in fact you may lose it if you don’t.
As you already know, the Torah tells us in certain situations that we are required to embarrass others.
“Lilmod, the libertarians notwithstanding, it is clear that states may do what individual may not do. A state may imprison or even execute people.”
Avi, who says? I know that is what the world thinks, but who cares what the world thinks? Where does one see that the Torah allows such a thing?
Imprisoning and executing people are different. They are only allowed to do that if said people are criminals for the purpose of preventing crime. The Torah specifically says they have a chiyuv to do that.
The equivalent example would be going to war to fight terrorism or to defend oneself or to defend another country who is being unfairly attacked. I have no problem with any of that. I am talking about going to war in order to steal someone else’s land.
“The Torah recognizes the right of gentile nations to go to war with other gentile nations to expand their territory.”
Where does the Torah talk about this?
lesschumras – I am commenting based on the knowledge that I have with the qualification that I may be missing info, so if anyone has information that changes the situation, I would be happy to hear.
I haven’t noticed that lack of knowledge about a topic stops others from commenting on things – at least I am being honest enough to acknowledge it.
Joseph, I guess you missed it. The one in Loshon Hakodesh. Someone else helped out meanwhile, but an additional vote could still be useful. This situation is really stressing me out and making me very nervous.
“Abba_S, you’re sayin even if I have a positive experience with my therapist and think others can benefit, i still shouldn’t share his name”
One possible problem I can see is that you may consider something to be positive that someone else may can consider negative, so it would still be a problem of loshon hora.
In general, there are just so many confidential and privacy issues involved in therapy, it’s not a good idea to give out his name in such a public forum, especially since you have shared so many details of the case. You might inadvertantly quote him in a way that he wouldn’t want to be quoted.
If you really, really want to give his name, the only way I can see it’s being at all okay would be if you asked him first and let him know exactly what you were writing.
I still wouldn’t recommend it though.
Abba +1.
except that Lenny can’t afford to wait until the end of December. If you keep trying, you can get through to him. Whenever I have tried, I got through within around 2 days. Just ask his wife when you should call back.
Daniell11- is this a joke? Why would you friend think it’s Shabbos every day? How old is your friend?
Sorry, RY, were you talking about the Indians or the British?
They had a home; I thought they just didn’t want to have pay taxes to the British.
Why would it be okay to murder people just so that you can steal from them? Any where does it say in the Torah that goyim are allowed to do this? For that matter, where does it say that we are allowed to?
did you get my msg?
Avi – so it sounds like you are agreeing with Joseph that the Americans were right.
I was talking about something else- the 7 signs of a chacham vs a shoteh (I think it’s 7). I thought that’s what he meant.
But thanks for answering me.
??? ???, ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??’??? ????
Aren’t there certain condition? Even when we conquered EY, didn’t we have to give the goyim the option of keeping 7 Mitzvos bnei Noach and living peacfully with us?
I don’t think that we are allowed to just go decide to make war with another country.
Also, that is kind of like saying that it was okay for the Nazis to kill the Jews because we have a Mitzvah to kill Amelek.
Didn’t the Americans start the war? So doesn’t that mean that the British were just defending themselves? (disclaimer: I don’t know much about history).
btw, did you try running the therapist’s name past the Sheilah Rav or your own Rav?
Are they east of EY? Pardon my ignorance of Geography – I only played Risk once or twice.
I know Australia is an issue. I think I even heard (but don’t quote me on this) that there may be a halachic problem with visiting there over Shabbos. If you live there, it’s different, but you are not supposed to put yourself somewhere where you will have this kind of sheilah (but again, don’t quote me on this).
American history tries to make it sound like it was one-sided the other way – the Indians were all bad and the Americans were all-good.
Same with the British. All the books make it sound like the Revolutionists were heroes. Hello, they were murderers.
If that’s what the Sheilah Rav said, then great. You had not mentioned that before. But you still have to go to the right therapist. Anyone can call themselves a therapist (I mean they have to have a degree, but that is meaningless. It’s not the degree that makes someone a good therapist). And the wrong therapist can do more harm than good.
In any case, it’s still kidai to get in touch with Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. He is very experienced in these matters.
In any case, I am very relieved to hear that you are complying with the Sheilah Rav’s instructions. Thank you so much for telling me that! I feel much better now that I know that.
I do agree with Joseph that you may have to keep bugging Rav S.B. Cohen.
“What is happening is that zealots take the ruling as a license to embarrass the husband and in some cases resulting in the husband fleeing the jurisdiction making it more difficult to collect alimony and child support besides making it harder to get him to give a get. Even if he doesn’t flee he can sue in Civil Court the ex-wife, Bais Din and the people defaming him at least here in the US. This why Bais Din would be stupid to authorize it as they gain nothing by authorizing it but can lose fined so severely that they loose everything they own.”
I have been thinking about what you said that there is nothing to gain. Obviously, if the guy would give in and give his wife a get, there is a lot to gain, which is why people would do this.
So I was assuming that you are assuming that most men in this situation won’t give in anyhow. Which made sense to me.
But, when I thought about it some more, I realized that there is a point. The point is that if people know that this can happen to them if they refuse to give their wife a get, then they will make sure not to put themselves in this situation.
That is why Lenny keeps asking if he will be ostracized if he refuses to give his wife a get. No one wants to be ostracized. So the men who are already refusing to give their wives a get may not give in, but ostracizing them will prevent others from doing so.
It’s like jail. Going to jail doesn’t help the criminals who end up there, but fear of jail prevents crime.
Obviously, one should only do these thing if the Rabbanim say to. I know nothing about the matter, so I have no idea if the Rabbanim ever say to or not, and maybe they never do. But if they do, then obviously it’s a Mitzvah to do so, and you will get Olam Haba if you listen, and you will go to gehinnom if you don’t listen. And you may be saving lives by listening. So you definitely have a lot to gain (if the Rabbanim say to do so).