Lilmod Ulelamaid

SYAG: “Hard to define things that don’t exist”

+1

ZD – I was thinking of that, actually. I have often wondered how we are supposed to view him. On the one hand, he saved a lot of Jews, so it seems that we should have hakaras hatov, but on the other hand, he was a really bad person.
A tinok shenishba is not a bad person, but Shindler did things that even goyim know are bad.

“Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.

2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:

Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.”

I have to strongly disagree. The first statement is certainly true. I don’t think that there any Gedolim who would say that college is not problematic Ruchniyus-wise.

The idea that one is affected by his environment is something that has many sources and it’s a very basic concept in Judaism.

There is a famous Rashi somewhere in the Chumash that gives a mashal of someone who goes into a place with a bad smell. When he leaves, he will smell badly no matter what. No matter what background a person is from and no matter how strong he/she is, the environment has an automatic effect.

In fact, the greater someone is, the more sensitive he/she is to his environment. The Gedolim are much more careful than others are about what they allow themselves to be exposed to because they understand the effect it has upon him.

I’m not saying that no girl should go to college, but whichever choice she makes, it is crucial that she recognize that there are dangers to going to college and that it is something that it is better to avoid. But as with most things in life, each choice has chesronos and maalos, and one has to weigh all the factors before making a decision.

We don’t live in a perfect world, and we have to make choices. But one must be aware of the chesronos involved with his choice, especially if the chisaron involves being subject to non-Torah influences. The more she is aware of it, the better chance she has of not being influenced, if she does choose that path.

Additionally, she may come to realize that she does not need that particular path.

Joseph has spoken!

Can we have a source please for that assertion?

Joseph – why do you need to know? I deliberately didn’t write that because I wasn’t sure if it was LH or not (and he can easily find out from live people, so if there was any kind of safek about LH, there was no reason to write anything).

If you’re trying to figure out the difference between Chareidi and Yeshivish, my point was that someone can be Dati Leumi in terms of his hashkafa and be very Frum in his practice, and someone can be “Chareidi” in terms of his hashkafa but be “modern” in terms of his practice.

In general I hate using labels. One of the main reasons I hate using them is because they can be used in different ways. I myself will use them in different ways depending on the context. But that is how I was using them here.

My point was NOT to get into a discussion of labels (which I HATE!). I was just trying to point out the factors to consider.

When making a decision about going to college or not, I think it is also important to think about which job path will involve more/less Ruchniyus.

While it’s better to avoid college, sometimes the jobs that don’t involve college can be worse Ruchniyus-wise than those that do require college.

For example, being a special education teacher or a speech therapist require college and being a secretary or a computer programmer do not, but once they start working, the special ed teacher and the speech therapist are more likely to be in a more Ruchniyus environment.

GH – While everything you wrote may very well be true, it in no way disproves the assertion that college has a negative affect on a girl’s Ruchniyus.

Before you posted, Joe had not written that college was worse for girls than for boys. He simply stated that college is bad for girls, which is true (although it doesn’t necessarily follow that no girls should attend college).

In any case, why are we making a comparison? Whether it’s worse for girls or for boys, the fact is that it’s bad for both and is something that should be avoided if possible.

Of course, there are many factors to consider, and if someone does feel that she must marry a guy who is learning, while she should still try to avoid college if possible, that is not a realistic option for everyone.

Not everyone can be a teacher or Ganenet, so some girls may need to go to college if they want to support their husbands in Kollel. And there are Rabbanim who give heteirim for girls to go to college in certain cases, although I think that all Rabbanim would agree that it is a b’dieved and if one can avoid it, she/he should.

Avi – I had written a lot more, explaining why it’s a Chillul Hashem to post this way, but it was edited.

In any case, if by opposing them, what you mean is going over and talking to them, then I agree (if in fact, it is true that they are wrong, which I don’t know, since I know nothing about the issue, and am not interested in knowing about it).

What I was referring to was people posting about the issue in a public forum. If it really is a Chillul Hashem, then the more it’s written about, the bigger the Chillul Hashem it is.

Again – it’s Elul – can we please find positive things to write about Am Yisrael?

It is certainly better to try to find positive things to write.

Thank you!

Also regarding the connection between the “shidduch crisis” and girls’ going to school/starting careers, I have noticed the following: From the limited numbers of shidduch-age girls/boys that I know in the US, I have seen that many girls do not end up getting married until they are 2 or 3 years out of seminary, despite their best attempts to get married as soon as they are back from seminary, as they seem to think they are supposed to do.

I wonder if this is precisely because the boys only start shidduchim at around 23 so their “besherts” do not start shidduchim until 2-4 years after they do (since many girls end up marrying boys who are only 0-3 years older than them).

I have often thought, as WTP mentioned, that perhaps the “solution” to the “age-gap theory” is that the girls should start shidduchim later.

I think that the main reason for the “shidduch crisis’ is that people call it a “crisis” if a girl is not married by 20. It doesn’t have to be a crisis, and it wouldn’t be a crisis, if girls didn’t feel that they had to get married as soon as they get back from seminary.

It would probably put a lot less pressure on them if they didn’t feel that way.

1. I think that it is true that most older girls (or at least a significant number) who get married do marry guys who were married before (either divorced or widowed). I haven’t done statistics on it, but I am very familiar with a significant portion of that population, so (unlike APY), I am fairly confident about this.

2. It doesn’t necessarily follow that most divorced men end up marrying (and staying married to) single girls. Many of them may not get remarried at all, and a lot of them end up twice-divorced. Also, there may be more divorced men than single girls.

3. In any case, I highly doubt that that is a significant factor in the divorce rate. For one thing, I am pretty sure that most divorces are initiated by women, in which case the shidduch crisis should be a deterrent.

4. VERY IMPORTANT: There seems to be an unfair assumption that most divorces should not have taken place AND that people get divorced only because they don’t want to work on their marriages.

I know this has been argued about before in the CR, and we won’t reach a conclusion. I don’t think it is something that anyone here can really know, and I’m not sure that anyone can really know.

What I do know is that people should be “dan l’kaf zchus” and realize that most people who get divorced are not selfish people and they do have good reasons for getting divorced. Perhaps, some divorces could have been prevented, and perhaps some couldn’t have.

But either way, it is unfair and incorrect to assume that most people getting divorced are doing so because they are selfish and lazy.

“The shemesh phone has an online version -you can find it easily by googling, hint, the website starts with the word shemesh.”
Good point – thanks for mentioning. I remembered that after I posted.

“I think amYisraelYid’s take on Magen Avot is more close to reality than Shoppings.”
I agree- it also occurred to me that she might confusing it with Rappaport/Ahavat Yisrael. They are both “in-between” types of schools, but I think that one is on one side of the Chareidi/Dati Leumi border and the other is basically on the other (It’s pretty close to impossible in EY to avoid being on one side or the other of the Chareidi/Dati Leumi divide).

“There are many other English speaking Rabbanim around, who may also be able to help (e.g. Rav Yaacov Haber of Shivtei Yeshurun, R Chaim Malinowitz of Beis Tefilla, Rav Goldstein of Mishkenos Yaakov area) but I don’t know how involved they are in the schools.”

Ditto. I would think that Rav Malinowitz might be a good Rav for Assurnet to speak to in general, from what Assurnet has mentioned about himself in the past.

I also think that people should tolerate the avoidance of the word “retard”!

“Children are less afraid of the word cancer. It something more adults fear.”
I agree.

“Heart attacks are different because they are more sudden and less prolonged.”
I think it’s also because people view cancer as an invader coming and invading their body, and that is scary!

Assurnet – if you get a hold of a “Shemeshphone” (Ramat Beit Shemesh phonebook), I believe there is a category for neighborhood Rabbanim and their numbers.

I would also like to mention that I was under the impression that you consider yourself “Chareidi” (although perhaps more on the American/open side). I am not sure if all of the Rabbanim mentioned in above posts are really your hashkafa. I may be wrong about that, but in any case, it would make sense to make sure that the Rav/Rabbanim you speak to are on the same page as you hashkafically.

I don’t know if people realize this, but when you write about what a Chillul Hashem it is that “Chareidim/Jews/Frum Jews” are doing x,y,z, you are creating a Chillul Hashem! If you really care about Chillul Hashem, then please try not to post such things.

IsraeliYid – that is really interesting. Thank you for sharing. Personally, when I asked the sheilah that was not was I told despite the fact that there were extenuating circumstances – I think even more than in your situation.

What I was told was that there are opinions that as long as he doesn’t actually touch the wine (which would be a pretty weird thing to do, IMHO), that it’s okay. I was told that I could rely on this, b’dieved, (meaning that the wine was not assur once it had already been served when the person was present). I did not have the impression that I was supposed to rely on this, l’chatchila, but that may have had to do with the way in which the question was asked, so I can’t say for sure.

In any case, it seemed clear that according to this Rav, the prohibition definitely existed; the issue was that it had not been violated as long as he didn’t actually touch the wine.

One of the reasons that I wrote that most Rabbanim hold this way was that I was thinking that this Rav was not the machmir type and he didn’t mention another opinion despite the fact that there were extenuating circumstances. But I just remembered that I’m not sure how machmir/maikel he is, so it may not be a raayah.

On the other hand, this is a topic that has come up several times, whether it was a sheilah that I had, or in other peoples’ homes when the sheilah arose or in conversations, etc, and I have never heard that opinion before (despite the fact that I know many “types” of people with varied hashkafos) , so I was surprised to hear such an opinion, and it makes me wonder if it is a “mainstream” opinion or not, but it’s definitely possible. I’m sure there are many things that I have never heard of before.

Either way, there definitely seem to be many opinions that it does apply, so I still don’t agree with the above statement of Avi’s.

But in any case, as I wrote above, I still don’t think it’s a raayah that he can’t be a tzaddik.

Shopping – does Magen Avot SEND boys to the army or is that just where they end up going? There is a difference between the two.
I am pretty sure that the girls’ Magen Avot calls itself a Bais Yaakov, so it is hard for me to imagine that the boys’ school SENDS boys to the army, although they may be from the types of families that send their sons to the army., so that is what they end up doing.

I didn’t read/watch the article, since judging by the title, it sounds like something we are better off not watching/reading.

But I have one comment: Either they were following Daas Torah and doing the right thing, or they weren’t. That is something that I think that we probably have no way of knowing even if we read/watch the video/article. Even if seems obvious that what they were doing was either right or wrong, chances are that there is missing information.

In any case, regardless of whether or not it’s obvious that what they did was either right or wrong, which I certainly am in no position to judge, the one thing that I want to comment on is as follows:

The heading of the article, “Chareidi Extremists…” is incorrect and extremely offensive. It gives over the message that their behavior is extremely Chareidi, and it is thereby giving the message that this is what being Chareidi means, and they are giving a very negative view of Chareidim.

Even though I haven’t seen the video, it is pretty clear from the title that they are presenting the Chareidim negatively.

If they did not act in accordance with Daas Torah, then they should not be called “Chareidim”. The title should be “People protest..” If they were acting in accordance with Daas Torah, then they are Chareidim and not Chareidi Extremists.

I went into this thread thinking that I could help out, but it looks like WTP did a great job on the elementary schools and like Shopping613 can probably help out better than I can with the high schools.

I just want to remind anyone who chooses to comment on this thread that they should be very careful not to post any loshon hora (which can be hard to avoid with this type of topic).

While there are certain things that can be muttar when speaking to an individual since there is “toeles” this is a (very!) public setting, so that wouldn’t be relevant.

Since it can be difficult to know what’s l”h or not when dealing with such a topic, my recommendation would be to picture the principal of the school standing right next to you as you type. Imagine that she is your best friend, and think, “Would I type this in front of her?”

LB – He doesn’t want to ask for a CR get-together, since that is too much and he won’t get it. So instead, he is asking for a voice chat coffee room. Since that is less (in his opinion – personally, I am not sure about that), he thinks the “powers-that-be” are more likely to agree to it.

Personally, I don’t think they will agree to either, which is probably very wise of them. I also think they would be less likely to agree to a voice chat. (but I could be wrong about that). Personally, I think I would be very uncomfortable with that (more than with the get-together.

Apushatayid: “Leitzanus is easy and requires no effort. Stopping to listen and understand the other side requires patience and time. Its way easier to be a leitz (talking from experience). Its not the right way.”

+1.

“In any case, as i posted this does not hold true today.”

What doesn’t hold true today? Regarding the wine issue, you quoted Rav Ovadiah. I haven’t looked up the source, so I don’t know what he says, but I know that l’maaseh, most Rabbanim do say that it’s assur. It is something that I have had to ask sheilahs about, and I was never told that it’s not a problem.

In any event, I don’t think that has any bearing on whether or not the person is considered a tzaddik. And it certainly doesn’t make them a goy. Even if someone is a tinok shenishba and even if they are considered completely not at fault for being mechalel Shabbos, the wine is still assur. So that can’t be used as proof of whether or not they are a tzaddik.

RY – I was thinking of it as perception skills not stalking skills. But you may be right – I’m not sure. In any case, it’s probably not the best way to test someone’s perception. But I think it would still be a fun game.

In a similar vein, I am Frum today because of someone who mekareved my mother when she was young and then went on to become Reform and an Apikorus and lead people astray.

I have no idea how Hashem judged him in Shamayim when he was nifter. But I do think that it was a Mitzvah that he mekared my mother and I am sure that he is getting schar for it, and I do think that I have to be makir tov to him.

When he was nifter, I told my mother that she should go be menachem avel the family so that they can get some nachas. They were very surprised to find out that he had ever mekared anyone and I think that it did give them some nechama.

Yitzchokm – glad to hear we’re not arguing. I do think that one thing that should learn from this is that one should be careful about believing the negative things they hear/read about other Jews especially if it’s from a non-reliable source.

Even if the Wikipedia article was technically true, without hearing that he did teshuva, one would be left with an inaccurate perception.

And we don’t even know that the article was even true. According to halacha, it’s assur to believe negative things one reads/hears about another Jew.

It is an extremely difficult halacha to keep, but we can start by realizing that media/internet sources are not reliable sources. Additionally, as can be seen in this case, even if something is technically true, there may be missing information which presents an entirely different picture.

Note: I’m not saying this to criticize. I am sure that if I had read the Wikipedia article and not the book, I would have had the same impression.