Lilmod Ulelamaid

Nisht: “1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.”

Thank you! That was precisely my point. I don’t know whether or not it happens at all, but it certainly is not a frequent occurrence, as one might think from the way the op is phrased: “many chareidim”. If it were frequent, I would have witnessed it or spoken to an eye-witness at least once in my life!

It definitely happens with far less frequency than chilul Shabbos does, and it is certainly not “many” chareidim, if these people can be termed chareidi at all.

The chareidi community as a whole neither engages in nor approves of these actions. These people do not consider themselves to be part of the “Chareidi community” nor does the “Chareidi community” consider them to be part of their community.

I want to clarify a few things:

Of course it is a terrible thing to harass anyone unprovoked. And if someone sees such a thing, they should certainly be upset about it, and want to protest, and be upset if they see that there were witnesses who did not protest. If I saw people dressed in Frum attire harassing someone without prior provocation and I saw that there were others there who could have protested and didn’t, I would certainly be very upset!

However, there are several (perhaps understandable) misconceptions here:

1. The assumption that such things happen frequently. As it has already pointed out, that is far from the case.
2. The assumption that if someone is dressed a certain way, it shows something about their level of observance and the community to which they belong.

Years ago, there was another (similar-type) of issue that people were upset about. At the time, I was studying in a certain program in EY, and one of the students (who was a modern baalas teshuva) asked one of the Rabbanim (Dati Leumi and very, very anti-Chareidi) about it. He explained that these people aren’t even Frum, let alone Chareidi. They are people who went off the Derech and are no longer Frum, but still wear the levush.

I used to work in a school located in Geulah. Once on a Friday night, I saw a bunch of men yelling at a car driving by. I wanted to say something, but couldn’t say anything to them (I think I actually tried, but they didn’t hear me- they were too busy running after and shouting at the car), so instead I said something to a group of girls standing nearby. From the way they responded, it was clear that they were against such behavior as were the rest of the community, and that they did not consider these people to be part of the community.

So when you see someone engaging in anti-Torah behavior, don’t assume they are Chareidi just because of their clothes. Just like if you saw someone driving on Shabbos wearing Chareidi clothing (and it was clear that there was no pikuach nefesh involved), you wouldn’t call him Chareidi, don’t call this guy Chareidi.

Just like someone who drives on Shabbos is by definition not Chareidi, someone who harasses another unprovoked is not Chareidi!

No! I do too. And I actually just saw an ophthalmologist (about something else – not this!) and he said my eyes are just fine, BH!

I think it has to do with the fact that I am much more familiar with the term “Bitachon” than with “bitcoin”, and I am guessing that you are too, LB 🙂

Also, when it comes to the CR, my issue is usually not the facts that are being given over, but the way in which they are given over. The problem is when a person or group is described with derogatory adjectives, in a way that can cause hatred (towards the person. group, or Am Yisrael as a whole) and/or a chilul Hashem.

So why did you write “100 men with Semicha”?

Were you not being literal, and just trying to say “100 men who have the knowledge that would be needed to get semicha”?

Of course on the other hand, the unintelligent or unworldly CR readers might not have understood that… 🙂

(that was a joke, and I have no one specific in mind.).

If there are no specific halachic requirements, why would they have to have Semicha? (especially since contemporary semicha has no halachic significance, and is not necessarily an accurate reflection of how learned the person is.)

” the definatiin of Rav is also somewhat loose, They just make some sort of flyer and pass it in along in Israel and the US and get a few in Europe (Most of the signers are from the US or Israel)”

I don’t think it’s so simple – I know someone who was once asked asked to be the 100th Rav (or maybe it was the 99th). He was asked to be the 100th (as opposed to 1-99) because he is not a Gadol, but at the same time, he is a Talmid Chacham and Posek, and he was specifically chosen because of that – it wasn’t just passed around.

Chabadshlucha – I just read this thread for the first time. I read your OP, and skimmed through the answers.

It seems to me that many of the posters may have been negating the validity of the question. However, I heard the same idea that I think he (and you) are expressing from a well-known Talmid Chacham.

Basically, there are many reasons that can be given for suffering (many of which were given in above posts, I think). These reasons have to do with why it is good for us. But we are still left with the question: Why did Hashem create a system in which we can only gain those things through suffering? Hashem created the rules of (human)nature – He could have created those rules differently in the first place!

The answer is that there is no answer that we can possibly understand, since we ourselves are also within the system, so we can only answer questions from within the system – we can’t answer questions that precede the system (and therefore are outside the system).

In terms of how to satisfy the man, you can tell him this and then add: If you need to take your infant to get shots, how can you explain to an infant why you are handing him over to someone who is going to torture him and stick needles in him if you love him?

The zoo.

WTP: “Perhaps some Jews are embarrassed, as you say. But there’s another viewpoint- Torah belongs to Am Yisroel. It was not meant for the goyim, and Targum 70 was considered a tragedy. Not because we were embarrassed by what Torah had to say, but because the Goyim would inevitably twist things from the Torah and use it against us.
When statements of chazal are thrown out without context and without explanation, it can potentially be fodder for the anti-semites and anti-frum people out there who don’t know and don’t want to know what proper Torah Hashkafa is. Of course we should not be embarrassed by our Torah, but that does not mean that we need to share it with those who will distort it.”

+1

” I doubt many, if any goyim are on the CR.”

I’m sure there are many. This is the internet, and it is in english. I think that anytime anyone posts anything, they should consider it as though they are posting it for the whole world (because they are). In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised it there were more goyim reading this than Yeshivish people, despite the name of the website.

qualification to above post: I didn’t really read the details of the subject at hand, so I don’t know which type of calculation is more relevant in this case. I was simply pointing out how and why the calculations could possibly be done in two different ways and reach different conclusions.

LC – I don’t know how these surveys work, but I would assume that an adult single (certainly if he/she is living on his/her own, and possibly even if he/she is not) would count as a family even though he/she doesn’t have children. This would decrease the average number of children calculated in such a survey, and make it appear to be less than it would be if you are not including singles (and I would guess that Joseph was not counting singles).

“and that the average Orthodox family has 4.1 children, not 7. ”

Do the Pew Polls count singles? If so, the figures will be much higher if you’re not counting singles.

Also, are they counting older couples? If so, I think that the average Orthodox family today has way more children than they did in the last two generations, so that would also make a big difference if you want to discuss the average Orthodox family with children living at home.

Also, the Pew Polls are probably counting couples that don’t have any children, and Joseph may not be counting those.

Also, I think Joseph specifically said that he is talking about the total amount of children that people end up having, which is not what the Pew Polls are calculating.

Please Note: I don’t know what the average is and I don’t claim to know; I am just pointing out some of the factors that can make a difference in the calculations, and may account for the different opinions.

“The Pew poll says that % of chareidi Jewsis 62% , not 75,”

Wow! I hadn’t realized it was that hard (even if it’s “only” 62%). How do they define Chareidi? Do they leave it to the people to define themselves? And do they actually use the term “Chareidi”?

“Neither political party has a Torah perspective, and to try and wedge the Torah into the Republican or Democratic platform is wrong and dangerous.”

“This.”

+1

LU: “Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.”

Ubiquitin: no he isnt correct.
This was explained above.
“ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.”

LU: No, it wasn’t explained above – it was misconstrued to mean something that it doesn’t mean. In english, the meaning of the statement, “It helps them become Modox, which is not as bad as Frei” means that it is bad to be Modern Orthodox, but it is not as bad as being Frei.

If someone wanted to say that becoming Modern Orthodox is not as bad as becoming Frei, the correct way to phrase that would be, “It helps them become Modox which is not as bad as their becoming Frei.”

And either way, nothing was said about Chassidim. You are adding things to his post that aren’t there.

Elmo – you’re right that she can and should learn herself, as should every woman. According to Rav Avigdor Miller, Zatsal, a woman would need to learn for at least 60 years to finish learning everything that she is OBLIGATED to learn.

But, at the same time, I have always learned that there is a difference between a man’s learning and a woman’s learning, and a woman receives a unique reward for enabling a man to learn.

If a woman wants to get the full share of Limud Torah that is allotted to her, she should do both – learn herself and support a man’s learning.

As Rav Hutner, zatsal said, a woman has a double portion in Limud Torah – her own and her husband’s. (and if she doesn’t yet have a husband, presumably she can receive it through helping other men/boys to learn.)

I think I once met one, but I wasn’t mekarev him. It was at a single’s event, so it wasn’t really the appropriate venue for Kiruv. Also, he considered himself to be Frum, and I didn’t feel qualified to explain to him why he’s not.

I don’t remember what color his hair was, but can guys be blondes? Or is it like brunettes that you have to be female?

Refuah Shelaima, LF!!!

They can take a really long time…been there, done that… my sympathies.

ZD: “The reality is Chassidism is not for everyone, even if you were born into it. It would be alot better if people were given better choices before the situation is almost hopeless before offering Project Makom because at that point, footsteps is offering a better solution”

1. I don’t think we’re only talking about Chassidim. I think we’re talking about anyone Chareidi.

2. You’re right in theory, except for a few things:

a) The parents’ obligation is to try to bring up their kids the best way possible. And if they consider a certain derech to be emes AND most people who bring up their kids this way are successful, then their obligation is to first try to bring up their kids this way.

b) The vast majority of the time it does work. In the minority of cases in which it doesn’t work, there is usually something else going on here. The normal thing is for kids to want to be like their parents.

The best thing you can do is to daven! For men/boys in general and/or specific ones.

“sigh the question was about (and I quote ) “…an average frum family…”

First of all, I find sighing to be rather arrogant and rude. There have been many times when I could have “sighed” at you, but chose not to. (the last post was only to make this point) .

Second of all, apparently I understood the term “average Frum family” differently than you did. I think that I had thought he meant the average of all Frum families. Meaning the average amount of questions asked by Frum families.

And honestly, it’s a bit ridiculous and rude to put so much emphasis on defining “average Frum family” a particular way. Maybe my idea of the average Frum family is different than yours is. Of the 7 households in my immediate family, 4 of them consist of only females.

I also am not sure that it made sense for you to marginalize “newcomers”. I am not sure if you meant people who became Frum less than a year or two ago, or if you were referring to all baalei teshuvas, but there are so many baalei teshuvas that I’m not sure if it makes sense to put them in a separate category, especially since bt’s often end up learning more halacha than ffb’s, and often have more questions precisely because they are more aware of the halachic issues that come up on a regular basis, as opposed to ffb’s who are more likely to take things for granted and just assume that since they’ve been doing something the same way for so many years, it must be okay, or to be reluctant to ask sheilas for the reasons that Benignuman and I gave above.

As I think was already pointed out, the whole idea of talking about an “average Frum family” makes no sense, which is probably the reason I didn’t interpret it the way you did.

but then again, some people think I’m male….. especially in the CR 🙂