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Sparkly: Thank you for your input and feedback about your observations. I see what you’re saying. Being otd for a decade, two, or more is a lot of life to live. Furthermore, these 40yo that you know may in fact never return to the derech. Thus you mention it because from the looks of it, there is no way of their ever returning.
That said, IMHO 40yo is the new 25. Okay maybe 30. Meaning, men at age 40 can be at the prime of their careers. Women as well. There is still a lot to conquer. Even if someone doesn’t have a job, or family, depending on one’s surroundings, being 40 is still on the hike up the mountain of life. Later, once individuals have reaped the rewards of living/breathing without the reins of Orthodoxy perhaps.
After one has plateaued at the peak and re-evaluates one’s priorities and desires, outlooks can change. One may look at life like a descent down the mountain. With conscious desire to contribute to the next generation.
I bring up this picture because once I had a college professor explained to us that once he turned 50, his outlook changed. He used to look at life like a mountain. At our age the sky is the limit. There is no limit. We look up the climb and only see the clouds. He used to be that person. Now he sees things downhill. He feels the need to pass on information to the future generations. His life has an endpoint on earth. Thinking about that, he is working backwards to fill his life with meaning.
With that in mind, it was not just this one professor who emphasized this paradigm shift. One’s perception of time changes as one ages. Later in life, one may have more time to contemplate once he or she has been-there and done-that.
A number of long-term goals have hopefully and if so, B”H, been achieved. Now what? Is there a yearning for Hashem? A yearning for the traditions of youth? A realization that one may not be so different than one’s parents. Forgiveness for the derech? A renewed look into Hashem?
Also, illness can also have an affect on one’s desire to connect to the Creator. Whether it is one’s personal battle or seeing a family member or friend in pain, in times of anguish, when one has no control, who does one cry out to? Hashem? And whose Hashem? The Hashem that one was too-cool-for-skool about back in his 40’s when he didn’t need him and could depend on himself and buddies alone? Or the Hashem from childhood that reminds him of his mother?
Because at the end of the day, do we not generally find ourselves needing someone’s unconditional love to comfort us when we need safety, even if it is only a fantasy of it?
I wonder.
Thank you
Are there any studies that look at one’s place on the derech over a lifespan?
Do a significant # of otd-now people come closer to the derech when they’re older? Perhaps if/when someone is an empty nester?
Or when one is in his or her 70’s, 80’s, 90’s+?
I ask because, at least in my shul, a lot of people become more religious after they retire. Maybe that’s different than one who adamantly went off the derech when he or she was younger, compared to a less observant Jew becoming more observant in time.
Still I wonder if people have a change of heart or thought later on in life. My rabbi said that sometimes having grandchildren really changes a person and he or she starts becoming more religious to connect with his or her grandchild[ren].
Thank you
iacisrmma: Oh yes and so true again. Please forgive me for here is another Manis Friedman plug:
Someone told Rabbi Friedman that he loves his wife as much as he did when they first got married.
His response went something like:
“What you only love your wife that much? You are supposed to have more love for your wife now than ever.”
The heart is powerful. The heart has the magnitude to expand. Love deepens. Familiarity blossoms.
Btw: Of course not all Jews who affiliate with Chassidism wear old-world style clothing from Eastern Europe or their relatively recent ancestral lands.
If you want to talk about something else, please go ahead.
Thank you
jewishfeminist02: Chassidic garb is very Jewish, but that is because historically Jews were required to dress differently from the non-Jewish population. IMHO Chassids who chose to reframe the situation from one of obligation, to one of pride and homage is a testament of Jewish strength and the will to reveal the light from limiting circumstances.
Sparkly: The question asked “What is a normal age to get married?”
People answered the question with debates about the pros and cons of getting married earlier (late teens), slightly later (early twenties), as well as later according to one’s readiness.
I am not judging “where the problem sets in” here.
I referred to my friend as “religious” to maintain anonymity. I guess that I could have called him simply a “friend.” However I did not. By stating that he was/is “religious” I meant to say that he internalized those teachings and married accordingly.
At that point, I believe that both he and his wife felt ready. Of course “being ready” is not something that I can define, nor ever prove of someone else. Still, there is merit to concept and practice of establishing a partnership, marriage, early on in life. Though I am not one who can personally attest to this. Nonetheless, in healthy relationships/marriages, having one’s spouse’s support, or back, can foster one’s development in new heights.
More explanation:
From the outside at least, he is more religious than I. I have more non-religious friends that are married than vice versa. You asked me if I was not religious. That is a good question that I cannot answer definitively and thank G-d because there is always room for growth.
You said: “I have consistently thought that maybe i would wait to have kids after i got married but the stage im at now i think im ready” (Sparkly).
Are you saying that you are married and no longer want to wait to have children?
… Also, doesn’t Judaism emphasize love coming after marriage? It sounds like there is an assumption that young marriages result with someone marrying someone of whom one “doesnt really like” (Sparkly).
Surely there are plenty of young marriages that were coerced, and/or the spouse turns out to be less compatible than anticipated. Sometimes one feels pressured to marry, and ends up bringing too much baggage into the relationship. There are numerous scenarios that can lead to unfortunate results.
What if someone is not ready to “settle down” (Sparkly)? Do we, does Hashem, permit us to date (with all the physical transgressions) until we are finally ready?
Some would say that summing up early marriages as problematic would be like telling G-d that His plan doesn’t work. Or maybe one is turning his or her back on the rabbis and tradition. There is a paradox here. Marrying early comes with risks. Marrying later exposes one to more opportunities to transgress. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that kabbalistic texts emphasize the need for the male and female to unite.
What if one’s desire to wait until he or she is ready is a misunderstanding of the way things work? Maybe feeling “not ready” is really an indication that one has a feeling of missing something. That something might be his or her soulmate.
For the record, I brought up the points in my post because I see the merits and depth in taking the plunge by getting married at a younger age. IMO some see getting married at a young age as something to do for Hashem and fulfill one’s purpose in life. I know someone else who is getting married because Hashem commanded it.
Today we live in a world that idealizes individual self-actualization. Being “ready” may be part of one’s quest towards independence. That said, are there not young people who see marriage as a way to break free and take control of one’s life?
There is validity in saying that getting married is no solution to controlling one’s urges or to find a way to become an adult (by cleaving to one’s spouse).
Yet what is the alternative for someone here?
Is it to be celibate? Repress the urges so much that they manifest into some unhealthy habit or distraction?
Date without intention to get married?
Transgress, breaking shomer negiah?
Move out and live with other singles or by oneself, and hold off on getting married until one feels more established (emotionally, financially, etc…)?
Avoiding intimacy until one is married may not be ideal. Someone may spend time feeling ready, only to enter a marriage feeling like he or she doesn’t really need anyone (because he or she has been living on one’s own for long enough). Marriage at least offers one opportunities to enhance intimacy, with mediums and modes of affection. If one keeps TH with peace of mind, then one can reduce the chances of having the guilt-trips that come with pre-marital transgressions.
I don’t know. Everyone is different. Normal is relative.
Thank you
Perhaps one example is Chassidish clothing, influenced by Eastern European Jewry.
Does Hashem want Chassids to continue wearing such old-world garments?
Well, what would happen if old-world looking and behaving Jews modernized their look? If they blended in better, then they could more readily assimilate into secular society.
According to old-world Jewry, is it not better to remain connected to their past via dress and customs than risk sympathizing with the contemporary society?
Perhaps fear is another factor. Fear of losing their connection with Hashem if they let go of the old-world yoke. Perhaps some Jews want to pay tribute to their ancestors by keeping their traditions alive. Some Jews in every time clashed with their present society at large. Not all Jews are old-world. Still, don’t the old-world Jews give back to all Jews, secular, MO, etc, with their traditional ways?
Granted, I definitely believe that some (abusive) old-world customs ought to be discarded. When it comes to punishing children with violence (hitting and humiliating one’s children which I have witnessed first hand), and smacking children in cheder, I pray that the old-world mentality will soften and realize that just because zedi or whoever did it does not mean that such ways are best or healthy.
IMHO, we inherited many traumas over the centuries. Hashem would want us to be healthy, kind, optimistic, and empathetic.
What’s your take?
Am I the only one who has heard that Jewish men and women get married early because they have “certain urges” that can only be fulfilled in the context of marriage?
I had a religious friend who explained to me that that’s what he was taught. I have heard this before from other sources of authority as well. It’s not about maturity. It’s about keeping sex and unions holy, where marriage is the only proper setting during appropriate halachic times.
Furthermore, my rabbi explained that getting married at a young age is preferable because the husband and wife grow together (Chabad Rabbi 4yr ago). Again, it’s not about maturity. Marriage allows two individuals to re-unite [their souls] and mature together towards the same goals, with the same values.
He said that when people wait to get married, it is harder for them to adjust to living with someone else (which I can only imagine right now).
When I asked the [his] rebbetzin about why she had children, she said that it wasn’t something to think about. There was no question, “It’s not like I decided or thought about it. We have children” (Chabad Rebbetzin last Pesach).
Along those lines, it seems like being married is normal. If someone is of marriageable age, one gets married to the most suitable partner. One does not need to be “ready” to get married per se.