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Joseph and Think Big,
If a Ben torah does work around the house, would it be acceptable to wear jeans or would he clean the garage in a suit? Also I’m curious as why suits aren’t also assured since goyim ( even lower class ones ) wear them too.
Let me claify. There is no one type of music that is can be defined as “Jewish” music to the exclusion of all others
I think one thing we can agree upon is that there is nothing inherently “Jewish” about music ( I’m not talking about lyrics ). Music has always been a product of the surrounding culture that we’ve lived in. The music that many Litvaks would define as being Jewish( Eastern European based ) would be totally foriegn to my brother in law ( his family is from Iraq ) and my friends ( Bukharin Jews ). The Jewish music at their simchas is totally different than what we are used to but it doesn’t make it not Jewish.
Differnt generations have differnt tastes; it doesn’t make it right or wrong. I have a friend who lives in Har Nof and has been at chareidi weddings where the musicians are baale tshuva. Often times the people don’t realize that the tunes they are dancing to are taken from the band’s former life and applied to their current one. Good music is good music.
Personally, I think you showed a poor example for the boys at the table. It’s also a lack of derech eretz to simply take the seat if not offered. Your age does not entitle to take the seat of anybody younger than you.
My wife has been involved over the past 20 years in shidduchim ( not professionally ) and the biggest single frustration she faces is the refusal on the part of either the man or woman to even meet each other once, especially after having gone thru an extensive vetting process. She’s even been asked what the woman’s siblings do for a living. Thru our shul, she has organized Single Shabbatons for older singles that have produced a number of marraiges over the years. According to our Rav, she was rewarded for all her efforts in the best way possible. Our daughter met her bashert on her very first shidduch date.
I can only imagine what mariner has to say about sfardim ( i.e. kitnyos )
It just seems that over the last 20+ years, people keep coming up with new ideas to spend other peoples money and make weddings much more expensive. When I and my friends were getting married 35 years ago, you gave the chasan and kallah an engagement gift and a wedding gift and that was it. Sheva brachos was a simple affair, in the home mainly entailing having a minyan for benching. When we made a Shabbos sheva brachos for our daughter 12 years ago, we kept the cost down and never dreamt of asking our guests to pay for their meal.
Over time, parents began paying for lechaims, then elaborate vorts , and now hachnasat kallas. After the wedding, chas vesholom you should have a low-cost sheva brochos in the house. Now they have to be elaborate, costly affairs themselves that guests are asked to pay for. When you add the costs of the “freebies”( the choson & kallah, parents, siblings, aunts, uncles etc ) , it can run $50-$75 a person. If you have to pay, you are not a guest. For this reason, we now politely decline invitations to sheva brochos.
The latest imposition is this latest shtus of asking the parents to pay for transportation. Why stop there? Why not aslk the parents to pay to have my suit dry-cleaned, to have my wife’s sheitel done up, and even pay for baby-sitting? Where does it end?
regarding the original topic of out of control drinking on Shabbos. My brother in law is a member of Hatzala in Staten Island and he told me yesterday something that hadn’t occured to me, but is probably happening in any community served by Hatzala. What was happening was members would have a few drinks at kiddush, get a call on their walkie talkie and run to the emergency. People were driving while impaired, if not actually drunk and arriving at the scene with alcohol on their breaths. They had to lay down the law; if you take even one drink at a kiddush, put away the walkie talkie.
In Parshas Yisro, perek 18 and pasuk 5 & 6 ( I don’t have Hebrew font ), the Torah describes Moshe Rabeinu’s wife’s father as his father-in-law. In addition, pasuk 7 describes how Moshe went out to meet Yisro to honor him.
Since Yisro was not Jewish ( he is described in the first pasuk of the perek as the priest of Midian ), this would appear to support Think Big’s position that there obviously are occasions when a link can be maintained between a ger and their relatives
to Think Big
That is one of the best, most reasoned responses I’ve ever read here.
Even worse is when people borrow sforim ( and I really mean borrow with good intentions ) and forget to bring the sefer back.
I agree with just me. Too much emphasis isplaced on dress, not behaviour. Three recent incidents:
1. I was at a yeshivish chasuna 3 weeks ago at the hall on 14th ave and 53 st. When it came to daven Mincha at the tish, about 50 men, who had already davened, continued to shmooz while eveyone else was davening. My chavrusa, the father of the chasan, later told me that he personally makes sure he davened Mincha before coming to a simcha because of this .
2. I was at a Pidyon, also in Boro Park, two months ago. Again, every one was properly attired in black hat and suits. While the baal simcha attempted to give a dvar Torah, about 8-% of the olam continued to talk .
3. My great-nephew, a student at a yeshiva in Brooklyn, was recently bar-mitzvahed.
His classmates who already bar-mitzvahed, were shmoozing during davening, but wearing their brand new black hats.
“Everyone who disagrees with Pashuteh is pashut a kannoi apparently according to his thinking.
It really tickles me how many of the modern orthodox call any Chareidi hashkofos as kannoi”
Apparently you’ve not read any of the postings of Joseph, jent1150 and ujm.
to jent1150
Why do you assume that all frum Jews speal Yiddish? Not everybody came from Eastern Europe and others come from backgrounds that didn’t speak Yiddish. For example, my friends son is now chareidi, but, since he spent 12 years in a MO yeshiva, speaks fluent Hebrew but no Yiddish. In reading your recent post, you seem to take pride in using as little grammar, punctuation and spelling as possible. However, if you make it difficult for a reader to grasp your point ( including using Yiddish at critical points ) how do you expect to make any impact or to explain your position?
I don’t speak Yiddish as my father’s family came here in 1870, was completely assimilated and my father became a baal tshuva at age 38 when he and my mother msrried.
to cantoresque,
I truly hope that you are trying to be funny and are not serious.
Joseph,
Unlike you, I don’t issue psak halachas. A well-respected and chashuva rav in this case did.
I wish the Josephs and the Big Ones of this world would stop issuing piskei halacha as if there was no other view besides their own. We are friends with a couple and the wife’s family was at the wedding ( with the permission and ok of the rav who married them). And what what is wrong with going to lunch with a goy?
to joseph,
Of all the people cited eligible for banning, I don’t recall anyone saying
“the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” ? Where there is room for discussion is what that “tee” is ( i.e. shitel only or with a hat, eruv or no eruv, chalav stam or CY )
But what I have noticed , as Feif Un did, that there is no shortage of posters insulting non-chareidi Rabbonim that they don’t agree with. Should they be banned too?
so, edc, why do you think you represent klal yisroel?
You really have to tell the truth, as it will come out anyway. My friends son had to get an annulment and a get shortly after the wedding when it developed that the bride had severe emotional problems that didn’t come to the surface during the short engagement period. It was only then that people came forward and said that they knew about it ( plus 2 broken engagements ) but that no one wanted to admit because they didn’t want to vishter the shidduch.
I agree with the letter writer. It works on many levels. If your manner of dress identifies you as a frum Jew, ( whether it be a black hat or a kipah sruga ) you always have to be concious of your behaviour and actions as you can never know how a positive action could lead someone to become closer to Hashem or, how a negative action could push someone away. How one speaks and acts has a greater impact than what one says.
I’m always amused by discussions of what ” Jewish ” music is. We’ve always adapted the music of the surrounding culture. What a Bukharin Jew would consider to be Jewish music sounds nothing like what the Litvish or Chassidish Jew considers to be Jewish music. Forget what the words were, there is nothing wrong with adapting the melody of a goyish song if it’s good. Much of what passes
What if it’s the wife parking in the spot?
How do you define Jewish music as opposed to non-Jewish music? What you call Jewish music is really Eastern European Polish and Russian music. A Bukharin or Yemenite Jew, for example, would define Jewish music as something totally different from what you call Jewish music. We’ve always adapted the musical styles of the surrounding culture.
I presume these bochurs are of marriagable age. If they can’t even come up with gas money, how are supposed to support a family? Is it also possible that the real minhag is the kollel welfare structure in which the bochurs expect their evry need to be picked up by someone else and they assume no responsibility?
to chesedname
1. You’d have to follow the state curriculum, not yours
2. the hours would be tha same as public schools since they would be
3. they would have to be co-ed
4. the buildings would have to be replaced since most, particularly
the chareidi ones, have no gyms or labs
Excepy that this kind of Tznius ( afraud of being seen with a brother ) is the typr they teach in Chelm
To jent1150
I give up. You haven’t responded to my suggestion and I don’t know to be any clearer
to jent1150,
Let me try one more time. I have no particular issue with this shailah. My comment was intended as a general remark that many posters assume everyone is fluent in either Hebrew or Yiddish or can understand the posters transliteration. The point the poster is trying to make is often lost because of the lack of clarity.
My suggestion was to translate the comments into English so that everyone can understand. If you are aiming your comments solely to those who can understand you, then you are in effect preaching to the converted and are not reaching those others who might benefit.
The most effective speakers at public shiurim that I’ve experienced are those who recognize that regardless of how tzniusdik in appeareance people are, they might not all have the same educational background. They don’t eliminate the Lashon Kodesh , but they do translate. It’s sad to see someone delivering a beutiful dvar torah only to see that more than a few people did not grasp it because the key points were not translated.
Jent1150, you are incredible. In your post you asked that “.now please no insults, critics..etc, etc ). Yet you call mysuggestion silly. Based upon yoor reply, I guess
I can assume the follwoing:
a. Anyone who can’t understand your replys can get lost
b. I’ve heard the biggest talmudai chachamin make an effort to make
sure everyone can understand them. You, apparently couldn’t care less
So please continue with your unintelligble rantings,
to jent1150,
This is not an insult, but a constructive criticism. A common unintentional mistake that many speakers make is judging their audience’s fluency in Yiddish or Hebrew by how they are dressed ( or in this case, by the nature of the web site ). My wife often tells me that , during lectures, it’s not unusual for a women sitting next to her to miss the entire point of the dvar torah because the speaker used Hebrew to establish a key point. He had know way of knowing that the woman, while dressed al pi halacha with regard to tznius, was a bal tshuva not fluent in Hebrew. We always try to remind guests to translate during the dvar torah so that everyone can benefit.
So what I’m suggesting is that please don’t assume that evryone on this web site can understand your transliteration of the original and to translate into English when ever possible.
Thank you
I agree that this nothing new. Forty years ago , when my younger sister was in Esther Schoenfeld, she refused be seen on the streets with me. She was afraid that the secret tznius police would report her to the rosh yeshiva without knowing that I was her brother. The KGB used to send their agents to Boro Park to train
Gambling is already in the Catskills. The development at the old Concord will simply move it out of Monticello , along with the raceway, to the new hotel.
How is Wall-mart at fault for people doing what you say they are doing? But you are right about one thing, people will correctly ignore any attempt to ban Wal-Mart.
By the way, Litvisher have had a history of questioning the validity of anyone who didn’t come from Europe. They questioned the Yemenites and later the Falashas. Apparently the Sefardi Chief Rabbi HAS accepted them as he had two mikvas built for them in India.So, I would amend boruchhashem’ and tzoorbas statements to read “that Ruach ASHKENAZI Chachomim ” and “the ASHKENAZI Gedolim endorsing this, I won’t buy it.
tzoorba, what exactly is bothering you?
a. That they have a 2500 year tradition, including a map of how they
ended up in India
b. That they underwent conversion al pi halacha and the presence of 50
shuls and two mikvas in their communities to indicate that the
conversions were sincere
c. That they’ve received smicha in Israel from the Chief Rabbi and
have been trained as Sofrei S’taam?
Even if they can’t prove their connection conclusively, any community that maintained
that tradition for so long and prevented assimilitation and sought conversion and aliyah should be welcomed with open arms.
yiddishemishpacha said: “Too many people are just marching along, keeping Shabbos, performing mitzvahs but they have no kesher with Hashem or understanding of their role as a Jew. Too much of what I see looks like rote actions.” I think you did an excellent job describing yourself!!
At least two shuls that I know of ( YI of Woodmere and YI of Staten Island ) banned all alcohol years ago because too many people ( and kids ) were getting drunk.
Withregard to letter #2, why did you stay to the end if the behaviour was that bad? Was the chulent that good? In all seriousness, you should not have stayed as long as you did if the behaviour was that offensive.