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Az yimalei sechok pinu. I guess YWN agrees we’re in a state of geulah.
The whole sukka vs shaving and hoyche kedusha thing is a red herring.
Yes, there is such a thing as Moshe Rabbeinu who was Hashem’s shaliach. Mosh Rabbeinu went out of his way to not say he was Hakadosh Baruch Hu, and went out of his way to tell people not to daven to him. The Rambam knew about Moshe Rabbeinu and still wrote his 13 ikkarim. So clearly there is no stirah between Moshe Rabbeinu and the 13 ikkarim. In fact, chazal tell us that Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so they WOULDN’T pray to him. I guess you’re saying the Rambam didn’t read the Torah and had no clue about Moshe Rabbeinu when he wrote the 13 ikkarim, but then why do Rambam Yomi if you believe the Rambam was so mistaken?
The rest of klal yisroel has accepted the 13 ikkarim as ikkarim, and NO other chassidus says about their Rebbe what Chabad says. Satmar chassidim love their Rebbe but don’t say der rebbe vet helfn. They don’t make their rebbe a god. I appreciate the hodaas baal din that you don’t hold of the Rambam’s 13 ikkarim, however.
Syag, thanks for the backup about people praying to the Rebbe. It PROVES that many understand atzmus kepshuto.
Would you chabadskers agree that the Jews who say “adoneinu boreinu” or say “Rebbe YHVH” are wrong?
Just asking.About the line that moshiach doesn’t have to be alive:
Growing up, all i heard was how every generation has a moshiach and Chabad said their guy is the one that best fits the generation’s moshiach. So based on the chabad of my youth, once the Rebbe died 25 years ago there was a new candidate. So it’s a machlokes the chabad of my youth and current chabad if the Rebbe is moshiach. The chabad of my youth would declare that only christians believe in dead moshiachs, and anyone who died was clearly not the moshiach. The Chabad of my youth would say that the random wackos in yerushalayim claiming to be moshiach are better candidates than the “heintigger” (previous) rebbe.
Of course, the “Stump the rabbi” video says that all chabadskers believe the Rebbe is alive, just a question of whether or not to publicize it.
As for the gemaras that the moshiach can be dead, there is also a gemara that there is no moshiach. And the Rambam says moshiach can’t be dead. The Rambam is the pillar of Chabad halacha, so you can’t disown him for this halacha once it becomes inconvenient. the Rambam says moshiach is alive, just like Chabad said 30 years ago.
I don’t need to understand Chabad’s twisted atzmus. I need to understand the ikkarim. If atzmus contradicts ikkarim, it’s treif no matter how many times you say otherwise. I don’t waste my time understanding the Trinity. Why should I waste my time on the Rebbe’s kefira?
Yes, you may have a more charitable reading of atzmus to not be deification. Unfortunately, the behavior of Chabadniks as noted shows that charitable definitions are just palliatives for the outsiders, not intrinsic Chabad beliefs. My view of it is backed up by both gedolim and the behavior of Chabad, which indicates that peshuto kemashma’o, that the Rebbe turned himself into a god and is worshipped kind of like a god. Said gedolim and said behavior noted above.
Again, the 1979 siacha asked how can you daven to a rebbe? The answer was the Rebbe is the same as G-d chalila afra lepumei. This DIRECTLY contradicts the ikkarim and says nivra=borei. Some chabadniks do say adoneinu boreinu so they eliminate the fig leaf that there’s a difference. Good for them- at least they’re being more intellectually honest about their avoda zara.
But let’s prove it to all you chabadniks. To prove it, all you have to do is substitute “the eigel” for the Rebbe for typical chabad phrases and it sounds the same. The eigel will help, the eigel runs the world, etc. If it wasn’t avoda zara , it should fail.Daasyochid, yes, it’s epistemic closure. Any gadol who points out the obvious is no longer a gadol. And thus they get trapped into avoda zara r”l
Sechel hayashar, a google search will reveal the quote from Rav Menashe Klein zt”l where he says that.
CR won’t allow me to post the link but let Google be your friend. It’s there.
Here’s the quote:
Crown Heights, NY – Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”
The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.
“This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”
His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.
Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”
Anyusername open, saying “you don’t understand chassidus” is kind of dumb. I don’t need to understand chassidus. I need to understand the ikkarim.
If it sounds like avoda zara/ violation of ikkarim, and the gedolim agree with me, then there’s no need to consider it further. Yes, I’m aware you have highly nuanced answers to say it’s not avoda zara. But you are forced to agree that, if interpreted like me, it’s avoda zara. And hanisayon yoreh that many Lubavitchers do in fact cross these lines.
Find me another chassidus that says Der Rebbe vet helfn or says that their Rebbe didn’t die, other than the culty sects. If it’s mainstream chassidus, it should exist. And it doesn’t. You guys are the only ones on this path of human worship.Litvishkeit is yiddishkeit without shailas. We have a kesher to Hashem and daven to Hashem. And we still have moshiach, just he has to actually fulfill the conditions in the Rambam, namely being alive and actually building the beis hamikdash instead of making up a silly vort to turn a building in Brooklyn into a beis hamikdash.
All Jews are “part” of Hashem, yes.
At a very low level, Hashem’s neshama connects us to Him. Human beings are so loft that the malachim wanted to say shira to Adam Harishon. Yes. All true.
THAT SAID
We are still nivra and Hashem is still the borei. That is why it’s called elohim acheirim. There are other powers. But Hashem is above them and controls them. Malachim have powers too.
It is still assur to daven to a human being.
Hashem Himself has no guf.
Hashem alone runs the world.
Hashem is rishon and acharon.
It violates ikkarim to say Hashem has a form, so the Rebbe’s words of atzmus umahus melubash baguf are kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say someone other than Hashem runs the world, so saying “The Rebbe helps” is kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say that you can daven to anyone other than Hashem, so the Rebbe’s use of atzmus to say you can daven directly to a Rebbe are kefira.My source is the Rebbe’s own teshuva from 1979. And the gedolim quoted who agree that it’s kefira. As people here seem to not know how to navigate threads, I will repeat them again:
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
Rav Menachem Mann Shach zt”l
Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (chassidish posek who clearly understands chassidus and still says yechi is apikorsus)
yblc”t Rav Aharon Feldman zt”l (if people believe the Rebbe didn’t die and thus deifying him)
yblc”t Rav Hershel Schachter shlit”a (can be heard on his lecture “segulos and superstitions”, available where his lectures usually are available)Prior to 1979, before atzmus, the Rebbe was just another guy who claimed to be moshiach. No big deal, history is full of them, some of them (like Shlomo Molcho) remembered more fondly than others.
Yerushalayim today is as well Walk around Yerushalayim and you’ll bump into a few claimants for the same crown, all harmless. Atzmus crossed the line. So when Lubavitchers say yechi about a guy who died, saying he’s alive it sounds like deification, with backup from the Rebbe’s own writings to confirm these suspicious. When Lubavitchers say The Rebbe runs the world, it sounds like the tazmus kefira. When Lubavitchers say the items used by the Rebbe have “Elokus” (to quote the words from the “Stump the Rabbi” guy ), it sounds like deification. When The same stump the rabbi guy says the Rebbe can’t make a mistake , even though Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, it sounds like deification. When said Stump the Rabbi guy says “everyone believes the Rebbe is alive, just a question of do we tell outsiders”, it kind of confirms suspicions. This goes beyond tzror hachaim that everyone has so please don’t try that red herring. When there are videos of Lubavitchers bowing down to an empty chair that the Rebbe once sat in, that looks like deification. When there are videos of the Chabad LAg Baomer parade where every group performs in front of the Rebbe’s chair as if he’s alive, that looks like deification. When you hear multiple eyewitness stories about people who davened to the Rebbe direcly, it sounds like deification.
In short, everything Lubavitch in Crown Heights does looks strongly like the kefira put forth by the Rebbe. So yes, stay away.
It’s easy to accept Lubavitch when you’re an am haaretz looking for a late minyan with vodka, but the more you know, the worse it looks. Yes, chassidus crossed many theological lines that started the slippery slope. Chabad reached rock bottom of the slope with the deification. Just read the ikkarei emuna and judge for yourself.Chabad has 2 sets of beliefs- one that they tell outsiders and one that they really believe. Atzmus teshiva is out there now for all to read. So is the basi legani maamar.
But I’m just a poste balabos. Ask your rabbonim.
Cut out the middle man- daven to Hashem directly! Have bitachon that Hashem will help as He alone runs the world. Do hiskashrus to Hashem via dveykus to His middos.
Become of Chossid of Hashem instead of giving money to some grifter “Rebbe”This thread is mufrach minei ubei
Israel is a maaseh satan according to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Maaseh satan needs not offer any hakaras hatov because it’s not supposed to have any good midah.
Mima nafshach.Is it lashon hara to tell people not to hoin Jews for Yoshke or similar groups?
Was it lashon hara when people warned others about Shabsai Tzvi?
Was it lashon hara when the Pharisees (the “snags of their day) warned people not to fall for Yoshke’s shtick?
As for the loshon hara, it’s not lashon hara to tell people to avoid avoda zara. Ein lecha toeles gedola mizu.
Can any Chabdsker please explain this line tom e?
“er, der rebbe un der aibershter zeinen ein zach”Which translates as “the Rebbe and Hashem are one thing”, from the atzmus teshuva?
I mean it sounds like straight-up heresy to me. It fit into saying “The Rebbe will help” but not into Yiddishkeit.
And if you believe in it, why not just request from the Rebbe directly instead of asking him to ask Hashem?
And if not, then you hold your own Rebbe is an apikoires just like us. So why be Chabad?
What is the practical difference between saying “The Rebbe will help” and “The eigel will help”?
Chossid, Rav Hershel Shachter’s opinion on Chabad can be heard in his wonderful lecture on segulos and superstitions which is easily available online.
All you have to do is google “daven to rebbe” and you will come up with people who say that, forget about my sources.
All you have to do is google “rebbe god”.
And no, saying der rebbe vet hefn means Rebbe as God. It’s using Rebbe as intermediary, the EXACT thing the Rambam says was early avoda zara, and what the meforshim say the mistake of the eigel was. Chabad goes back thousands of years to the maaseh eigel. The Jews knew Hashem created the world, just though they needed an intermediary.For any chabadsker who is willing to answer:
1. What was the question that the Rebbe in 1979 wanted to answer with “atzmus umahus melubash baguf”?
2. What were the answers that the Rebbe didn’t like?
3. How did atzmus umahus melubash beguf answer the question?
4. a superficial translation is that Hashem in a human body chalila, which sounds EXACTLY like Christianity. They should sue for plagiarism, along with the idea of dying and being resurrected messiah
Yes I know a typical neshama is chelek Eloka but yet nobody ever said you can daven to a human until the Rebbe.Oy! Der eigel vet helfn
Ok We’ll do this again. I have listed multiple gedolim, some alive some not so. Their writings are perusable for all, and it is clearly better for you to speak to them. Like I said, my friend WITNESSED people davening to the Rebbe. Others have heard people say they daven to the Rebbe. It’s the pashut pshat in atzmius, and if you’re not davening directly to the Rebbe then there is no need for the whole “atzmus melubash baguf” sicha. That sicha directly violates the ikkarim that Hashem has no body and that you can’t daven to anyone other than Hashem. A Stump the Rabbi video says that the Rebbe can’t make a mistake, which is clear deification as any human makes mistakes. Another says that everything the rebbe touches had “Elokus”. More deification. You can’t see it and I feel bad for you but don’t listen to me, listen to gedolim. If gedolim say you are eating treif, first you put the sandwich down then you hock. You sau “rest of gedolim”. Which gadol today has come out in support of yechi as NOT being apikorsus, OTHER than chabad people? Name them.
As for the ones i named, a simple google search can reveal exactly what they said and when. No secrets. Just I’m not supposed to share them here as per the rules of the CR.
Yaakov Avinu lo meis was a chiddush based on a drasha. Most meforshim learn it NOT pashut pshat, and it was only due to the drasha. Where is this drasha that the Rebbe didn’t die? Honestly speaking, he was an invalid 2 years earlier due to the stroke. He had a second stroke afterwards, then he died. Nobody is certified as dead until they get examined. the death certificate is freely available via google search to see which doctor signed it. Then the body undergoes tahara and shmira. So it’s a long period from the time the person dies until they are buried, Someone who was in the ambulance confirmed that the Rebbe’s body was doing the things that dead bodies do when they are decomposing. And once you’re buried there’s no clawing out of 6 feet of dirt even if you are alive and healthy. Yet there are signs in Crown Heighs saying “der Rebbe lebt begashmiyus”. Signs over 770 saying Rebbe Shlit”a. Spare me the “there’s nothing wrong here!” Talk. We can tell deification when we see it.
Chossid, I have already listed the gedolim but I’ll be happy to do so again:
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
Rav Shach ZT”L
Rav Chaim Kohn ZT”L (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (if they say yechi)
yblct Rav Aharon Feldman Shlita (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
Rav Hershel Shachter shlit”a (as per the segulos and superstitions lecture)
(Many gedolim off the record who don’t want to have a smear campaign against them because they have better things to do, which you find out by having a kesher with Daas Torah)
That’s quite the range. It should be enough to at least be me’orer a safeik.
Why risk your olam haba?
Of course you have questions i can’t answer. I’m not a gadol, just a balabos loser who hangs out in the CR. But the gedolim who do know better than me and aren’t fooled by sophistry have paskened.I’d open up a Rambam in hilchos melachim and make sure he did what he was supposed to. Alive? Built the beis hamikdosh? Ok, he’s my king. Otherwise, update the wikipedia page of false moshiachs and add another one.
I had an older relative a”h who was zoche to attend a Nevorodok yeshiva in Europe. He told me the hanhala there Assered drinking on Purim because it lead to “znus”. Did they not know the laws, or are the situations that override the laws?
Someone else told me they didn’t drink in Europe because they couldn’t afford it.
Chossid, what is also clear is that your view of Moshe Rabbeinu comes via the distirted Chabad view pushed in the sichos. Chabad distorted Moshe Rabbeinu and placed the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation. So everything needs to go through Moshe Rabbeinu, Moshe Rabbeinu is your connection to Hashem, etc. Yet Rashi goes out of his way to say that, as great as Moshe Rabbeinu was (and he was the greatest), it revolved around davening to Hashem. Rashi makes that clear in parshas amaleik by Videi Moshe keveidim and in Chukas by the nachash. Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so he would NOT turn into an avoda by people distorting his role. Yet today we unfortunately see that it has happened. It hurts, like it hurts when you see your friend going OTD. Same kind of knife-in-the-heart pain.
Chossid, you ask some very good questions. I refer you to the Rem”a by hilchos erev rosh hashana that paskens that you should NOT daven to the meis in the kever, rather you daven to Hashem. Moshe Rabbeinu was Hashem’s shaliach, but the Jews didn’t daven to Moshe- they davened to Hashem. A rebbe teaches you the way of Hashem, but like the Rambam says in hilchos avoda zara, davening to anyone other than Hashem is avoda zara. I’m not a gadol so it’s not my job to know the answers to all the questions. But I do know that gedolim called chabad as it is today avoda zara so I should stay away. You can passel a few of them but you can’t passel all of them. Safeik avoda zara lechumra.
I feel bad for you, Chossid. Since your grandparents weren’t Chabbad you’re not gezhe (The Lubavitch word for meyuchas, ie the families which were from Russia) , which restricts your ability to get good jobs within chabad. If you’re going to drink the Koolaid (Flavorade really but Koolaid is more popular , sorry Jimmy Jones of Jonestown) you should at least earn the good job for it.
If litvaks are wrong, no big deal. We find out who moshiach is when he comes and builds the beis hamikdosh and accept him, whoever he is. We had a right, based on the Rambam , to reject chabad so we followed Torah. But for you, the stakes of being wrong are much higher. According poskim you are oveir avoda zara. Why take such big risks in damaging your neshama?
When I was younger, there used to be kosher lepesach peanut oil and more matza meal products. The Jewish Observer had pictures of women. Now the products have disappeared, and women are nary to be seen in frum magazines. Why? Because manufacturers gear themselves to be kosher for all to make the biggest profit possible. Jewish magazines exclude women so as to become acceptable to even the frummest of families. So why should Yiddishkeit be any different? If you know that many gedolim consider your yiddishkeit to be yehareig ve’al yaavor, doesn’t it make sense to drop it in favor of a more acceptable form of yiddishkeit? One that retains many elements of yours but without the safeik tarfus? EG neochassidus or similar.
And what do you mean barely started your day? You’re not touching the computer until after shacharis and learing in the beis midrash for an hour.
There’s a mishna in pirkei avos that lists 48 ways to acquire Torah. Follow that mishna
Joseph, there will be a major shofar blowing that will be heard all around the world. My assumption is the Internet and all social media will stop working due to yitami chataim min haaretz.
Ein od milvado. Hashem alone runs the world, and it is only fitting to Daven to Hashem and make requests of Him. I pray that one day you will be able to accept the truth. Kol tuv
Yes, Lubavitch teirutzim for why they aren’t violating ikkarei emunah are nonsense. Maskim.
And that is why you stay away from Chabad.
One more name to add to the list of those who called Lubavitch Avoda Zara: Rav Hershel Shachter shlit”a. You can hear him express this opinion in his shiur on segulos and superstitions.
But you are still a Jew and I love you, and hope you will return to the fold one day.Copypasta but good copypasta:
Many people are aware that Rav Yom Tov Lippmnn Heller zt”l the Rav of Cracow and the author of the Tosfos Yom Tov composed a special prayer, a mi sh’bayrach, for those who refrain from talking during Davening. Unfortunately, not all of us have reached this ideal yet, which is why the Tefilah of the Tosfos Yom Tov was necessary.
The Shulchan Aruch (OC 124:7) discusses the terrible Aveira of talking during Shmoneh Esreh. Indeed, it is the only place in Shulchan Aruch where Rav Karo uses the expression, “ v’gadol avono minso — his sin is too great to carry.” It would seem that Rav Karo employed the language used by Rabbeinu Yona in his Igeres HaTeshuvah ( section 6). The Mishna Bururah (124:27) cites the Eliyahu Rabbah that a number of shuls ended up being destroyed on account of this violation.
The Tefilah of the Tosfos Yom Tov was composed during the Chmelnieki Massacres 1648-1649 (Gzeiras Tach v’tat) where some 300,000 Jews were murdered by Cossacks under his leadership. The Chida explains that it was revealed to the Tosfos Yom Tov from Heaven that the talking was the cause of the terrible tragedy. We still recite the special Mishebayrach to this day in many communities throughout the world.Maran.
The fewer titles, the better.
It’s not a hergesh. The Rebbe said he was moshiach in his basi legani due to being the 7th Rebbe, then dropped hints about it for years, and the gullible ones believed it.
You are believing exactly what you are brainwashed to believe.
It’s kinda funny to see a group go nuts over the 12th ikkar but make a cholent out of every other ikkar by calling it “chassidus”. Hashem has no guf? Well chassidus so atzmus. Only Hashem runs the world? Well atzmus so tzaddik gozer so the Rebbe runs the world. You can only daven to Hashem? Well atzmus so you can daven to the Rebbe. Moshe was the biggest navi? Well the Rebbe is the ispashtusa demoshe and even bigger than Moshe because the Rebbe can’t make mistakes. Oh and thanks to atzmus everything the Rebbe touches had elokus.All you need to do is substitute “eigel” for “Rebbe” for leitznusa deavoda zara. Whereas in Crown Heights they say “der Rebbe vet helfn” just say “der eigel vet helfn”. etc etc
The Steipler says in a letter to learn 12 hours a day for years. Once you do that fir a few years you will find your unique hadracha and become a gadol.
The worst kind are the insincere shushers. Totally fake “NU!!”‘s
Moshiach is a big inyan but Lubavitch “passeled” it
Eretz Yisroel is a big inyan but the Zionists “passeled” it
Learning Tanach is a big inyan but the maskilim “passeled” itChabad houses are not relevant to the question here and amount to a red herring. There are many Christian hospitality programs too. the diyun is if they are within the fold or out of the fold. If the poskim say they are out of the fold, then the Chabad houses are irrelevant
Moshiach is an ikkar haemunah. It’s the 12th. Worshipping a false moshiach doesn’t mean you believe in it more- it just means you believe in the other oikkarei emuna less.
By this standard, the followers of Shabsai Tzvi were better than the misnagdim who rejected him back then. Obviously wrong.
Zahavasdad, “who did more to rebuild Yiddishkeit” is an interesting question and one worth discussing in a separate thread, which I will start iyh. But the question on the floor is “should an outsider join Chabad” which becomes no based on psak that it crosses theological red lines.
This thread is now “we have a hergesh that the Rebbe was moshiach” vs “We have psak that Chabad is apikorsus”. Psak overrides boich svaros.
There’s another of the 6 zechiros- remember what happened in the desert with the eigel.
There is no bigger toeles than telling Jews to avoid safeik avoda zara, and helping Jews who are currently nichshal r”l escape that.Lubavitchers: why do you snags hate us?
Litvaks: We don’t hate you, but our poskim say you’re apikorsim/ ovdei avoda zara and we should stay away.
Lubavitchers:
Lubavitchers: Why do you snags hate us?Here is a direct source for what the Rebbe wrote about the Holocaust, showing he had the same views as Rav Shach zt”l and Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l, and what I showed his father-in-law said:
On the subject of the Holocaust, the Rebbe wrote as follows: “It is clear that ‘no evil descends from Above,’ and buried within torment and suffering is a core of exalted spiritual good. Not all human beings are able to perceive it, but it is very much there. So it is not impossible for the physical destruction of the Holocaust to be spiritually beneficial. On the contrary, it is quite possible that physical affliction is good for the spirit” (“Mada Ve’emuna,” Machon Lubavitch, 1980, Kfar Chabad).Schneerson goes on to compare God to a surgeon who amputates a patient’s limb in order to save his life. The limb “is incurably diseased … The Holy One Blessed Be He, like the professor-surgeon…seeks the good of Israel, and indeed, all He does is done for the good…. In the spiritual sense, no harm was done, because the everlasting spirit of the Jewish people was not destroyed.”
Milhouse, I quoted a biographer of theRayatz, Bryan Mark Rigg, who wrote a book about the Rayatz’s escape via a half-Jewish Nazi. Bryan wanted to see if the Rayatz paid it forward like Rav Kotler zt”l did. He was upset to find the Rayatz did not, mainly focusing his efforts on rescuing his library.
The Joint Distribution Committe was functional in Shangahi. There were many Jews and refugees in Shangai. Rav kotler zt”l went around collecting money with his own sweat and blood, and used it the best way he saw how. That meant litvish talmidei chachomim who would rebuild the Torah world in America. The Rayatz should have focused on saving the Tomechei Temimim bochurim instead of his library. Blaiming Rav Kotler zt”l for spending his limited resources on the litvish instead of tomchei temimim bochurim is stupid. The Rayatz bears responsibility for their deaths, not Rav Kotler zt”l, who helped save 100,000 people through his efforts that the Rayatz condemned.
Here is a quote from Rabbi Manis Friedman . Is he arging on the Rebbe?
“Who in fact died and who remained alive had nothing to do with the Nazis,” Rabbi Manis Friedman stated in a speech delivered in Melbourne in the 1980s. “Not a single Jewish child died because of the Nazis … they died in their relationship with God.”“Nasi hador” literally means leader of the generation. Obviously the world exists only for those who keep the torah and mitzvos, so we’re limited to Torah observers. Who led more Torah observers, the Lubavitcher rebbe or Rav Shach? The answer is clearly Rav Shach. Chabad would say in response that only those who follow the Chabad way count, so the only choice is the Rebbe. Fair enough, but nobody else will fall for that.
I love this historical revisionism, claiming the current Rebbe only loved and never opposed anything, and neither did the previous rebbes. I have documented my findings of pamphlets that say otherwise, both from Making of a Gadol and Bryan Mark Rigg. I’m sure there are a lot more but this is sufficient to dispel that myth.
But that’s irrelevant. Let’s get back to the point of this thread. Should one join chabad? I admit the thought of a lit 10:30 shacharis with boatloads of vodka afterwards sounds like fun. But safeik avoda zara lechumra.
Rav Shach: his secular grandchildren loved him. Clearly not the hateful man described here. He publicly took harsh stances but was much different in private.
Yitamu chataim min ha’aretz.
I think it’s a good idea to make a section of “soothing lies Lubavitchers will tell newbies”.
1. The Rebbes never attacked anyone, and all their misnaged opponents were just haters.
2. Most Lubavitchers don’t believe the rebbe is moshiach, hey just talk a lot about moshiach since the Rebbe who was the greatest man who ever lived did
3. Ok, they believe the Rebbe is moshiach, but most believe that the Rebbe died as was obvious to all during his funeral.As for the idea that the rebbe is kepshuto alive, there’s a whole process in verifying a death in a hospital. And the body wasn’t buried until the next day. Finally, the Rebbe was kind of an invalid at that point after multiple strokes. do you really want him living in such a hellish state for 25 years? It’s nuts. but so be it.
It seems I have been challenged for a source about what i wrote about the 6th Rebbe. So I will quote from none other than Bryan Mark Rigg, who wrote the book on how Rav YY Shneerson escaped the Nazis:
…[T]he Rebbe [Joseph Isaac Schneersohn] of course wanted to escape Europe and had his movement employ every means, even approaching the Secretary of State, to get him out, but when he was here in the US, he did not approach those very same people to help rescue those who had to remain in Europe. However, he did approach those people in the government to rescue his library, which he did get out in 1941. Are books more important than people? Some of the books were secular like Dante’s Inferno and books on Communism. This is a sad part of the history of the Rebbe. Also he started [publicly] condemning people who were organizing amazing rescue efforts like rabbis Kotler and Kalmanowitz of the Vad-Haatzala.
He claimed they and Reform and Kofrim Jews were causing the Holocaust with their non-Kosher ways. Yet, we see that Kotler and Kalmanowitz helped rescue up to 100,000 people with the War Refugee Board. The Rebbe felt they were unnecessarily compromising their religious integrity by meeting with politicians on the Sabbath and secular and reform leaders. So the Rebbe made mistakes and according to Chancellor or Yeshiva University, Norman Lamm, he committed blasphemy by claiming God was punishing the Jews for their sins with the Holocaust. He claims this is a desecration of God’s name (Menachem Mendel Schneerson also said that saying such a thing is a desecration of God’s name without mentioning his father-in-law). These facts and many more show how much Chabad does to ignore unpleasant facts about their history. They just claim that when people write such things, they are jealous of their movement, do not understand their people or on a political campaign to smear them. Very weak arguments and signs of inferiority complexes. So basically this story shows that instead of pointing fingers, we need to act and make a difference. Small minds blame others; big ones blame themselves and then seek out action to make the situation better.
What people wanted was a hero of the Jewish people fighting for their rights. Instead, the Rebbe just thought of himself and his movement and condemned others. He was not helping the problem, but creating more. He should have worked with [Rov] Kotler and [Rabbi] Kalmanowitz, or at least have tried to, instead of [publicly] condemning them and a host of others.
So now that I have quoted gedolim who say that every “yechi” yarmulke is a declaration of apikorsus, and a simple visit to Crown Heights will unfortunately show a very large number of such apikorsus, there can be no reason to entertain a hava amina of joining Chabad, even if they do have a 10:30 shacharis with a sach vodka and shnapps. Avoid the apikorsus. I feel very bad for them, the same way I feel bad for members of the Lev Tahor cult.
A Chabad-leaning friend of mine who was old enough to visit 770 when the Rebbe was clearly alive lefi hakol mentioned the time he was there and saw a few people davening directly to the Rebbe. The Rebbe turned around and corrected them and told them to daven to Hashem instead. While my friend reported this incident in a positive light, all I will say is that nobody “accidentally” davened to Rav Shach zt”l.
This is a problem in all developed areas.
The Rebbe’s father-in-law spoke very harshly of the Jews in Europe, saying they deserved to die in the holocaust, and was opposed to the efforts of Rav Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l to save them. And it’s chabad philosophy that the Rebbe can’t make a mistake (as per the “Stump the Rabbi” series. So how can the “heintigger” Rebbe contradict his saintly father-in-law nasi hador atzmus moshiach on this point just to argue on Rav Shach zt”l, who had 10 times the amount of people at his levaya than the Rebbe and yet never gave himself that grandiose title of nasi hador?
Even Lubavitchers would join litvaks in denouncing the crazy cults of Messianic Jews, Lev Tahor, Eliezer Berland, or Reform Judaism. That’s not hate- it’s pointing out he truth and loving all Jews, and hoping we can save them. We don’t hate the innocent brainwashed Jews of extreme meshichist chabad any more than we hate the brainwashed youth of Lev Tahor. It’s not their fault. “Hater” is the Lubavitch hijacking of the liberal “racist”, designed to change the subject into an ad hominem and deflect from the issues.
It was kind of understood that everything the rebbe shlita (as per signs in 770, he’s the Rebbe Shlita, feel free to stop and and see for yourself- pok chazi) said about his father in law “nosi hador” was meant for himself. Later he bacame more explicit and said things like “Moshiach’s name is Menachem” “moshiach miyad”, (miyad being roshei teivos for dov ber, yosef yitzchk, menachem mendel) and moshiach mamash (mamash being roshei teivos for menachem mendel schneerson). And as per daily rebbe vido #244, you can watch him waving along with the yechi adoneinu song. In basi legani he also said that Hashem loves 7, and just as Moshe is the 7th shepherd and redeemed the jews so too moshiach will be the 7th shepherd (the last Rebbe was the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe.)
Not hatred. He made the claim.
As for who said it’s wrong, Adoniyahu claimed to be king as is viewed as a rasha for doing so.
Nasi hador is a ridiculous title for a guy who had 1 tenth of the followers at his funeral than Rav Shach zt”l had. Yet he called himself that.
(Once we’re on the topic of Rav Shach zt”l, Rav Shach zt”l was rather clear in his denunciation of Lubavitch and called it avoda zara. In return for his kind-hearted efforts to save a large portion of klal yisroel from eveira, he was called “Shach” and “mibnei banav shel Haman limdu torah bebnei brak”. He was not denouncing Lubavitchers, which is a big difference. )Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l, the gadol who rebuilt Litvish America, also warned about Chabad.
That was when the Rebbe was alive and “yechi adoneinu” was sung to a living person who could at least have been moshiach based on the fact that he was alive, though the odds were greatly against.
Now that the Rebbe has passed on , yechi adoneniu has become quite problematic. Rav Chai mKohn of the KAJ used to check the shochtim at Rubashkin to make sure they believed that the Rebbe was dead instead of alive, even if they believed he was moshiach. Rav Aharon Feldman shlit”a, who is on the moetzes, has the same view. So according to both of them, the ubiquitious “yechi” yarmulkes around Crown Heights are apikorsus. Lubavitchers say in return that they are just “snags” (“Snags” being the perjorative term used by American Lubavitchers to describe litvaks, short for misnagdim) who don’t understand chassidus. In other words, yes those gedolim hold “yechi” Lubavitch is apikorsus , but it’s only because they are litvish. Of course Rav Menashe Klein zt”l , who was a chassidish posek, said the same thing.Feel free to look at chabad news websites and see how the “yechi” yarmulkes are everywhere to understand that yes, it’s malei apikorsus according to many gedolim. Lubavitchers have teirutzim for everything, but why not kaleich eitzel yafos and avoid the problematic apikorsus and avoda zara?
The Rebbe redefined the Rambam to make himself fit its criteria better. He defined “fought wars” to mean his kiruv work, which is why they have “mitzvah tanks” and tzivos Hashem”. He also interpreted a Yalkut Shimoni (the one with the words anavim anavim hegia zman geulaschem) to mean moshiach is standing on top of the beis hamikdash me’at in golus announcing moshiach. Since moshiach=the Rebbe, 770 became the beis hamikdash of galous. This is why Lubavitchers build 770 replicas in different neighborhoods- to build a replica of what they believe is the beis hamikdash of galus. The Rebb put down a cornerstone as part of an expansion project that never really finished. As such, Lubavitchers say the Rebbe “built the beis hamikdash in its place” , ie 770 . These 2 forced interpretations work for them but not for anyone with a seichel hayashar.
I’m Litvish with some chasidhs blood. I love all Jews, whether litvish, chassidish, chabbad, Yoshke Messianic, irreligious, etc. But loving all Jews doesn’t preclude halacha and knowing right from wrong.
Chossid, why is llearning chassidus so important? Why not gemara and shulchan aruch?
Gedolim attend chabad weddings because chezkas kashrus that they don’t fully believe the nonsense like “atzmus” and are fully aware the Rebbe died 25 years ago and isn’t alive. But go around litvish yeshivos instead of going by what people say hear and you will quickly see that Chabad is very suspect, and that they are at least chochesh for the view of Rav aharon Kotler zt”l that Chabad is avoda zara. Considering some chabadsker sent Rav Shach zt”l a noose in the mail, I don’t blame everyone for being silent in public. The talmidim know the truth.
The goyim have an expression- if you go after the king, you better not miss. It’s also true that if you declare yourself king, you better not miss. The Rebbe declared himself moshiach in his “basi legani” maamar. You can easily find the video called “Daly Rebbe 244” Where the Rebbe sings along to the yechi adoneinu song, so claims the Rebbe never said he was moshiach are nonsense and just for outsiders. 25 years later, the rest of us know the Rebbe was just another in a long line of false moshiachs, from Yoshke to Shabsai Tzvi to the one in Teiman that caused the Rambam to write his famous “Igeres Teiman” to Jacob Frank to the Rebbe to Eliezer Berland in modern times.