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Secular studies don’t exist in eretz yisroel in the yeshivas, and they strongly resist it. Why?
I’m starting to get the impression that the yeshiva Reshivish Rockstar is rocking is in morristown.
YRS, the atzmus sicha is posted above, and we have the Rambam zt”l, Rav Shach zt”l and the rest to help us understand that peshuto kemashmao. There’s no “chassidus” exception in the ikkarim. You can check them yourself.
But what kind of yeshivish rockstar isn’t familiar with the litvish gedoilim?The #1 rule of debating is to understand your opponent’s viewpoint so you can refute it.
Many yeshivas today clearly have secular studies tzu yoitzei zayn, where they are only doing it mitaam hagezeira but clearly don’t feel it’s important. This is just another step in that direction.
I disagree, but I understand their viewpoint. The kids will suffer but they suffered in Europe too and the gedoilim still felt it important.I believe the Lubavitch yeshiva Oholei Torah is run like this as well.
Health, I am not Joseph. The mods can back me up on this. I went to college, and want my kids to get a good secular education as well. I’m just being intellectually honest though. There is a reason why the litvish chadorim in Eretz Yisroel don’t have secular studies. Again, just read Marc Shapiro’s book, don’t rely on me.
You can also find similar quotes throughout the new thick biography of Reb Baruch Ber zt”l.Yeshivish roshei yeshiva will tell you there is an inyan, but it’s not supported by the mishna brura. Efsher it’s mitaam minhag.
Rebbe of course. Torah>tourism
I read what you wrote, and disagree. Yeshivish people are too busy learning to understand the source of the Chabad meshugas. They can see the toitzaois but not the ikkar shoiresh poireh roish velaana because why should they spend hours understanding Chabad when they can spend the same time horoven on a ketzois?
I hate to defend Joseph but he’s probably correct on these quotes. We have accepted secular studies so we don’t think about them but it’s not so pashut.
According to Marc Shapiro’s book on the Seridei Eish, even in Europe there was a stratification between the educated and the uneducated. the shuls were stratified based on skill level , which is why you find things like the tailors’ shul or the wagon drivers’ shul. But even in Europe they insisted on no secular studies, even though it meant poverty.The mishna brura in siman 91 says that now that we wear a hat in the streets, we should wear one for davening. The mashmaos is that 1. they didn’t always wear one in the street 2. When you don’t wear one in the street you don’t need to wear one during davening.
I want my kids to have a good secular education. On the other hand, many gedoilim were against any secular studies whatsoever. The malach, Rav Levine zt”l, left Lubavitch after catching the Riyatz with a secular book. His followers in Torah Vodaas refused to go to secular studies and were expelled in 1935. There’s a reason they don’t have them in the chadorim and yeshivos ketanos in Eretz Yisroel.
I hear both tzedadim.
In other words, you are looking for a good yeshivish place for bachurim who aren’t aleph bochurim but aren’t failures.
He might do well in smaller yeshivas.Neville: “those who believe the Rebbe dies and is still moshiach are making a mistake but aren’t apikorsim, unlike the ones who say he’s alive.”
Source for this distinction? Why would it be worse to believe he’s alive and hiding somewhere?
Crazy? Yes. But, I don’t see why it’s halachically worse.Nevile, The source for that is both Rav Menashe Klein zt”l and yblc”t Rav Aharon Feldman shlita. As mentioned, many do take the atzmus thing literally, where the Rebbe is c”v “G-d in human form”. Many don’t Baruch Hashem, though how they deal with the Rebbe saying “it’s not a problem asking to Rebbe instead of Hashem because he’s the essence of G-d in a human body” is beyond me.
Almost all Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is moshiach. If you believe he died, then you believe he’s moshiach but an ordinary human being. If you call him alive, you are ascribing to him deity-like powers to evade death beyond mere mortals. Both of those sources can be found by googling.
I’m fully aware of his witty pun. But the Torah is not for witty puns.
Arranged marriages work when the person you are looking for isn’t supposed to be your soulmate, just play the role of momme to your tatte.
Lubavitch would do itself a favor if it would name a new Rebbe, even if they say it’s just a temporary rebbe until the real one returns.
There’s a famous maaseh about the Satmar Rebbe speaking with Rav Bick. The Satmar Rebbe was upset tha tcouples were meeting 8 times before getting engaged instead of 2. Rav Bick told him, “you say 2 because you’re a mesader kiddushin. I say 8 because I’m a mesader gittin”
Trump is a tafsar- a tipesh sar. Not the first, won’t be the last.
yehoshuaahron: “Rav Solovechik … learned the first Sichos and mamor of The Rebbe when he took on the Nesius where the Rebbe Zt’l says explicitly The Fridiker Rebbe will take us out of galus (after his histalkus) and speaks of the Zohar quoted about Atzmus.”
So wait a second. If the Rebbe said his father-in-law is moshiach, how can the whole of Lubavitch contradict him and say the Rebbe himself is moshiach?!
There’s a famous klal in psak- you don’t go after aggadeta. The gemara discussing the idea that moshiach can be from the dead is just as relevant as the gemara saying there is no moshiach anymore. Shkoyach on your abarbenel, but mainstream Judaism rejected that idea years ago. I know it’s much easier to say the Rebbe didn’t die, which is why many are forced to say such nonsense.
But, like Rav Aharon Feldman shlit”a said, those who believe the Rebbe dies and is still moshiach are making a mistake but aren’t apikorsim, unlike the ones who say he’s alive. So a tip of the hat for being within the fold. Kemoscha yirbu beLubavitch.
If Hashem didn’t want him to be president, Hashem would put an end to Trump. Harbei shluchim lamakom.
The Rambam clearly didn’t learn that gemara as halacha lemaaseh. The Abarbanel isn’t a poseik. So unless you have someone on the stature of the Rambam saying moshiach can come from the dead, any gemara hava aminas are irrelevant.
Nobody was more emphatic about that than the Chabad of my youth. Moshiach has to be alive.
I wonder what is must have been like for Chabadskers in their 40’s and 50’s, who got used to the idea of “Every generation has a living moshiach” to suddenly have to drop everything and switch to “dead people can be moshiach” or “Dead people are still living”. Like serious ouch time.
I do question how successful Chabad is being “mekareiv” other frum Jews. Back when the Rebbe was living they got many normal frum Jews to say “maybe the Rebbe is moshiach”. Now it only appeals to die-hards. The best they can do is sell the Rebbe as a tzaddik whose kever is worth going to.
RebYidd, how can you suggest Ivanka should be president? Melech velo malka
Hashem obviously wanted him to be president, so what does the OP mean by “shouldn’t”?
Hashem also wanted Obama to be president before Trump.AUO, Chabad clearly and explicitly rejected the idea of moshiach being dead for years. Then the Rebbe died and suddenly this is Chabad belief?
The Rambam clearly rejects it as well. Chabad does Rambam Yomi and the Rebbe considered the Rambam so authoritative that the distinctive Chbad menorah was based on the Rambam illustration.
Yes, there are a few sources for it. But it wasn’t mainstream, and the Mechaber clearly stopped believing in Shlomo Molcho once the Christians killed him.The Lubavitcher Rebbe spent ten years in Berlin and Sarbonne attending various universities. Didn’t end up wqith much to show for it, according to recent research by Menachem Friedman. He was in Berlin at the same time as Rav Hutner zt”l and Rav YB Solovotechik zt”l. In the book “Thinking aloud”. someone asked Rav YB Soloveitchik zt”l if it’s true the Rebbe learned tehillim all day. He replied, “First ask me if he wore a yarmulke”. The Rebbe didn’t while in university, as per the custom of the Orthodox Jews in college. This doesn’t make him a bad person, but not the background of a future messiah.
The Mechaber zt”l, who got a mention in this thread, stood behind the messianic candidacy of Shlomo Molcho. But he didn’t think his own rabbeim were moshiach. Lubavitchers think the Rebbe was moshiach because the Rebbe said so in his “basi legani” maamar, and then everything had to be distorted to fit it in.
Lubavitch needs a Shaul of Tarshish type to keep klal yisroel away, though they are doing a good job themselves with this yechi nonsense and saying Der Rebbe Vet helfn. Klal yisroel knows a Christianity clone when they see one.Taanis 25b implies that people were always into looks
His generation ended 25 years ago. Single girls from when he died are now bubbies. You are now having the second generation of Lubavitchers who only know the Rebbe as an oyhel, not as a real person.
At some point they need to accept that they got played and move on with the next Rebbe.Both alive and dead at the same time. Schrodinger’s Rebbe
This is an old machlokes. The Rema paskens you don’t ask the dead person to do anything for you, and the gemera in Sota (34?) about Kaleiv asking the avos to pray for him is agaddateda.
The Pri Megadim defends it and says it’s not a violation of the 5th ikkar because they are asking him to intercede with Hashem. The dead person isn’t all-powerful and isn’t Hashem in a human body.The rebbe’s atzmus sicha said you can directly daven to a rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. That is NOT what the pri megadim said. That is the person in the kever as a god.
Major difference.
Though litvaks hold like the Rema and do neither. We see how innocent practices become avoda zara r”lLubavitch was a different Lubavitch before the 7th Rebbe.
Occam’s Razor says go by the simplest explanation.
For those who insist modern Lubavitch ISN’T Avoda zara:
If chas veshalom it WAS, what would it be doing differently from today?We already established that people daven to the Rebbe, based on the atzmus sicha.
While many don’t, the Rebbe said it’s ok so it’s just a question of personal preference.
We already established that people say “Der Rebbe vet helfn” instead of “Der Eibishter vet helfn”. So whether or not they daven. they still speak of the Rebbe as all-powerful.
They post pictures of the Rebbe everywhere.
They say he’s alive.
They say he couldn’t make a mistake.
They say everything he touched has “Elokus”We have a slew of justifications and twisted and distorted gemaras to defend every one of these distortions of the mesorah, but none of these were part of klal yisroel until the Rebbe died.
Rav Shach zt”l couldn’t be fooled, though I was. I thought his use of avoda zara was extreme. I depserately wanted him to be wrong.
Daas chachomim hepech midaas baalabattim. He was right, I was wrong. I wish it wasn’t so.I would almost buy these justifications for deification IF it was done when the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe was alive, and all chassidim did it. However, all of this cropped up after the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe died, and these are nothing but post-facto distortions and justifications for deification that go against the mesorah of klal yisroel and the 13 ikkarim. And it’s why the Rambam gave them to us- so no mater how much someone tries to be metaher this sheretz, we know it’s a sheretz. We know Yoshke wasn’t moshiach despite his claim of G-d in a body, we know others who try that claim aren’t.
You can call him the Avi Ezri, which would be like The Shach. Otherwise it’s like saying The Shneerson.
Unfortunately, Rav Shach zt”l was proven correct. Many thought he was wrong , but the last 25 years have proven him correct, as discussed elsewhere.
Daniel was punished for Nuvuchadnetzar davening to him, as per the midrash.
Oy! Der Rebbe vet helfn (leitznusa deavoda zara)
The Rebbe had a stroke in 1992. He was quite incapacitated from it. When he died, a death certificate was issued, which is easily googlable for whoever wants to see it. They don’t issue one until an exhaustive battery of test are done. I spoke to someone who was in the ambulance that did hotzaas hameis, who assured me that the Rebbe’s body was doing all the things dead bodies do when they’re out of the fridge. There was a tight chain of custody until the Rebbe was put into a coffin, and the coffin was carried by Chabadskers. Once the Rebbe was put in and covered with 6 feet of dirt, even if he was alive and healthy he would have no way of clawing himself out. So at best he would have lived another few hours before succumbing to lack of air. Yet we see they hold he’s physically alive. Quit the magic trick.
Chossid, in this case, the person above was basing himself on the atzmus sicha which the Rebbe stated. The Rebbe explicitly blurred he line between human and Hashem. It’s like whe Christians call Yoshke both human and god, based on their theology. The Rebbe explicitly adopted this. He owns this.
The picture I posted in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-lubavicher-rebbe-shlita/#post-1705012
shows a big banner hanging off a school with a moshiach flag, saying “The Rebbe physically lives in this physical world”.
That doesn’t fit into anything anyone here is saying.
From a fb conversation a friend of mine who learns at 770 had
Yeshivishrockstar, The Rebbe isn’t the Torah. He said what he said, had 12 years to correct the record, never did. His sicha EXPLICITLY says it’s ok to daven to a rebbe directly because of atzmus. This isn’t a snag diyuk. It’s befeirush in the atzmus sicha. Like that was his whole point. Please show me where the likutei moharan or kedushas levi violated the 13 ikkarim and said it’s ok to daven to a person.
People have a bigger problem with sukkah and meshichism because they are not familiar with the atzmus sicha. Rav Shach zt”l was fully aware of the apikorsus and called them out on it. Meshichism follows from this- if the Rebbe can’t make a mistake because he’s part of Hashem then he couldn’t have been wrong about him being moshiach.
I think my sikum was overly complex so let’s boil it down.
1. Should you join chabad? No, because the movement has many apikorsim based on the rebbe’s own sicha equating rebbes with Hashem, as posted above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from Chabdskers.
2. Should a chabad person leave chabad? Yes, as above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from your mashpiim.Daasyochid, klal yisroel has a chezkas kashrus and kol deparush meruba parush.
Chabad is kavua. Plus the rebbe’s “rebbe = Hashem” atzmus sicha is a reyusa on every member of Chabad.Daasyochid, I will say that their usual excuse is “those aren’t the regular Lubavitchers, just the crazies”. They don’t use the term apikorsim because they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
But for us, we are trying to be mekareiv them, let’s use the appropriate term.
I can’t speak for Rav Menashe Klein zt”l. But I accept his pask as someone who knows the bounds of appropriate and inappropriate chassidus.AUO, you’re quoting your rebbe and saying you need to understand him while saying we can’t rely on our gedolim as a lame excuse. Which is it?
You’re losing cheshbon and we’re 8 pages deep into this sugya so it’s time for a sikum.
2 questions on the floor:
1. should a non-chabad join chabad?
2. Should an existing chabadsker drop chabad?
Tha answer to 1. is clearly no. We have established that
a. The rebbe said full-fledged apikorsus/kefira by saying you are allow to daven to the rebbe because the rebbe is one body with Hashem. This violates numerous ikrei emunah. (You fully admit that the sicha on its face value is kefira/minnus, just that you claim we need to be melamed zechus and be metareitz dibburo, which lacks a source that it’s our job to do so when the kefira is black-and-white)b. Many Lubavitchers take it at face value, as even you admit. They daven to the Rebbe and say things like the rebbe will help and the rebbe runs the world, clearly indicating the rebbe is the equivalent of Hashem. They say everything the Rebbe touched has Elokus, and the Rebbe can’t make a mistake even though even Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake as explicitly stated in this week’s parsha. You just say that this isn’t chabad philosophy, and people make mistakes. But that means you’re saying moshiach caused people to worship avoda zara, even as you are metareitz dibburo to say he didn’t say what he said. Since avoda zara isn’t battul, then even one apikoires in Lubavitch means stay away, kol shekein when it looks like official Chabad philosophy.
c. Many gedolim said that Chabad is avoda zara/apikorsus. You admit that too, but say the fact that they attack the Rebbe for saying kefira means they lose their status as gedolim. But everyone else holds of them. And they are confirming what is obvious to everyone who sees that sicha, that the rebbe turned his entire movement into direct avoda zara by claiming that a rebbe is on par with Hashem. So no need to say they made a mistake or got their facts wrong when we see they were correct.
You agree with me that there are full-fledged ovdei avoda zara in Chabad based on understanding the sicha at face value, which rather explicitly says it’s ok to daven to the rebbe. You are just claiming he didn’t mean what he said, and it’s somehow coincidence that even normal chabadskers say things like “der rebbe vet helfn ” and The rebbe runs the world as if to imply that it’s the rebbe, not Hashem. In the gemara there is a concept of metareitz lediburo. If someone says apikorsus, then moridin velo maalin. Not my job to be metareitz diburo. It’s HIS job to correct the record. He had many years after publishing that to publish a retraction or correct the record. Shtika kehoda’ah. He said kefira and meant it.
So the answer to question # 2. is yes, Chabadskers should abandon chabad. They don’t have to become misnagdim. They can join Lionzer or other Chabad non-Lubavitch breakaways that retain Chabad but dump the kefira/apikorsus. Please do so. Klal yisroel needs you. Be like Yisro- abandon the avoda zara to go tachas kanfei hashechina. We eagerly await you.I object to the term “nut jobs” here. That implies lack of bechira and inability to do teshiva. I prefer the term apikorsim like Rav Aharon Fedman zt”l used. Yemincha peshuta lekabel shavim.
Like Warren Buffet used to say, don’t invest in an industry you don’t understand because it’s probably a scam. These scam companies use a bunch of fancy words and say “youre not educated enough to understand”. The thing is, the 13 ikkarim are rather simple and ironclad. If you violate them, you’re out. It’s on the people violating them to say why they’re not apikorsim. Syag doesn’t need my backup but blowing off serious shailas with “you’re uneducated” is not an intellectually satisfying answer. Please directly answer the question. The sicha Daas Yochid posted above DIRECTLY says you can ignore the 5th ikkar because the rebbe is G-d in a human body. That’s a direct violation of the ikkarim that says Hashem has no human form, Hashem alone runs the world, you can only daven to Hashem. There is an ikkar about how great Moshe Rabbeinu was, but nowhere in history do we find Jews saying “Moishe Rabbeinu vet helfn”.
I’ll acceppt that most Lubavitchers dont’ accept that sicha kepshuto because it’s apikorsus, so we don’t have to view Crown Heights as an ir hanidachas, but there are clearly many who do based on the widespread popularity of der rebbe vet helfn. So yeah, stay away from current Lubavitch.Again, ad the gedoilim are correct, you DON’T speak to Lubavitcher talmidei chachomim because they are michutz lamachaneh. This attitude of “ignore your gedolim and speak to ours” is kind of weird, especially since they are the ones veering off the 13 ikkarim not us. It’s up to them to recant the apikorsus and rejoin klal yisroel, not up to us to ignore our gedoilim and understand their apikorsus.
Atzmus sicha said you are allowed to daven to the Rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. So mima nafshach- either you agree with him and you’re an apikoires, or you argue on him which means you hold your rebbe was an apikoires, and what’s to defend?
The noitzrim believe their guy died but is moshiach. So does chabad.
The noitzrim believe their guy is one with God, beyond what any other Jew is. So does chabad.
The noitzrim believe you can daven to their guy instead of Hashem. So does Chabad.The noitzrim should sue for plagiarism.
Please don’t tell me nobody davens to the Rebbe if the sicha from 1979 EXPLICITLY PERMITS IT AND SAYS THE 5TH IKKAR DOESN’T APPLY TO THE REBBE DUE TO ATZMUS. So either they hold it’s true or they hold the Rebbe said apikorsus there and forget about it, but then moshiach can’t be an apikoires.
Let’s say you have the most charitable reading of the 1979 sicha and somehow wriggle out of the fact he said “atzmus means no violation of the 5th ikkar” which itself violates other ikkarim as well as the 5th. The Rebbe wasn’t an apikoires and he meant well . YET, it’s an established fact that there are chabadnikim who do daven to the Rebbe (based on that sicha), call him “our Creator”, some say “Rebbe YHVH”, etc. So How can moshiach be someone who caused people to turn away from Hashem and worship avoda zara?
Listen to the Rambam’s ikkarim and the heintigge gedoilim- stay away from Chabad.
Ein od milvado. Hashem helps, no other power helps.
BneiBrak, that was just the eiruv rav. Klal yisroel used the eigel as an emtzai, the same words the sicha says the Rebbe is for- an emtzai who is one with Hashem so there’s no violation of davening to someone other than Hashem because thanks to atzmus, the Rebbe and Hashem are one and the same (sic!)
Syag, whose reputaion here in the CR is sterling, said he saw it. I have seen people say it. Google daven to the Rebbe and you will see others. It makes sense, as it’s pashut pshat in atzmus. And pashut pshat in atzmus is keneged the 13 ikkarim.
I’m sure there are teirutzim. And you can’t be on sanhedrin without being able to be metaher a sheretz. But yet the sheretz remains tamei, and our gedolim say to ignore these farfetched teirutzim and read the ikkarim kepshutan, which puts most of Chabad as michutz lamachaneh.
The ikkarim were written to help Jews confused by Christians and other meshichist groups. If they say the moshiach is part of God, it’s out. If they say daven to someone other than Hashem (which the sicha from 1979 says explicitly,) it’s out. The saying of yechi reflects this view of the Rebbe as super being. So does saying Der Rebbe vet helfn. So does bowing down to empty chairs as if the Rebbe is still in there. It’s not LMT saying this, it’s the gedolim kana”l. And that’s why switching der rebbe for der eigel is so effective. It breaks you out of the nonsense and makes you realize you have turned your rebbe into an eigel, an intermediary to Hashem instead of davening to Hashem Himself.