Lenny1970

To answer my own survey, i know of a couple where the husband wanted the divorce; the wife was okay with it; problem was personal issues and I thought managable but apparently not; the Beis Din put up no resistance; told the couple to get their civil divorce & come back for the Get. Beis Din located in Elizabeth, NJ.

And just a quick status, after the holidays, we’re meeting with the Rabbi from the Beis Din in Lakewood for a shaila. The Rabbi we’re going to meet with is highly recommended by our Rabbi. We want to get clarification on whether the Beis Din would order me to give my wife a Get given our circumstances, how can you make a spouse stay in a marriage he/she doesn’t want to stay in, etc… Thanks again for all the insights & Good Yom Tov

edited

To answer some of the comments & questions raised, there’s no actual abuse taking place; verbal or otherwise, as none could be identified in the meetings with our Rabbi. Lilmod, how would u know if the differences can be worked on or not without counseling? Abba_S – our Rabbi is a disaster in my opinion. About 11 yrs ago, he advised me to address my wife’s complaints of her being unhappy; whether real or imagined. I maintained then, as I do know, that I just can’t make my wife happy. We’re not hurting materially or anyhting like that. We have great kids, etc… My Rabbi would argue that you can only change yourself; u can’t change the other person. Okay, but if a wife has a semi-decent husband, great kids, health, no money issues etc… & she’s miserable as all can be, how can I turn her around? Doesn’t she have to do that herself? He said that I wasn’t getting it. He maintained I can’t ask her to change. I can only change myself. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, our Rabbi is actually making matters worse by not advising wife she should count her blessings as opposed to making unrealistic demands. My wife has stated if she’s unhappy, it’s my fault and I have to figure out how to make her happy. I really think my Rabbi has brainwashed my wife. They seem to have similar irrational positions.

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. My wife & I met w/ our Rebbe earlier. My wife & I will meet with the Rabbi from Bais Horaah in Lakewood for a shaila. Hopefully, he can give us guidance on how to conduct ourselves & tell us how a Beis Din would rule. Also, my Rabbi said he didn’t say a beis din “would definitely” order me to give a Get. He said he told us the beis din “could definitely order” it. My bad. I mis-heard him. In any case, thanks to the posters on this board. There’s at least an outside shot at salvaging our marriage. Thanks again & shavuah tov.

Winnie, what if it’s just bad advice? At our 1st of 2 meetings with our Rabbi, I suggested that the differences between us weren’t all that great, e.g., we agreed on kids, shul, money issues, etc… I was hoping this would motivate our Rabbi to urge us to go to marriage counseling to find out how real our diffs were and whether they could be resolved. Instead, our Rabbi quashed my questioning by asking me how I thought it made my wife feel by minimizing her issues like that. In other words, the Rabbi took my constructive suggestion & turned it into how I’m continuing to be abusive. Which in my opinion, improperly hardened my wife’s position that she needs a Get and counseling being out of the question.

Joseph, I hope you’re right on this one, but could you please provide a link to support it, thanks: ” A civil divorce has no halachic significance or relevance. A civil divorce does not create a halachic obligation to divorce when there otherwise was no halachic obligation to divorce. And a civil divorce cannot be used to circumvent halacha to obtain a Get when there is no halachic obligation to grant a Get. Unilaterally moving out of the marital home or forcing one’s spouse to unwillingly leave the marital home, also, does not create an obligation to divorce where there otherwise was no halachic obligation to do so.”

Lilmod, according to the Jewish Press, it’s actually a sin and not a mitzvah to assume the worst in someone. When we reach the heavenly court, we’ll be judged by Hash-m the way we judged others. If we assume the worse in others, we’ll be judged harshly. I’m saying this b/c you said “In terms of the baseball/video games example, that is the type of thing that really depends on the precise context -exactly what was said and how, and what your children are like, etc. It can be controlling or it might not be.” Even our Rabbi reluctantly admitted it wasn’t a bad thing I did & he actually agreed with me. After having no examples of abuse or controlling, he said he’s only goin by what my wife told him. Which really ticked me off that he’s forming all these negatives about me without vetting the charges or allowing me to weigh in. In summary, it’s not a heimishe thing to work so hard to try to find a negative about somone that just isn’t there. Thanks.

Lilmod, you said “I know tons of people who are divorced and I have not heard of a single person who wanted to get divorced but was not allowed to.” Any cases like mine? where the wife wanted the divorce and the husband didn’t? And the wife didn’t have halachic grounds for the divorce? It sounds to me like you’re talking civil court & not a Beis Din. On the other hand, our Rabbi suggested my wife just get a civil divorce; have me moved out of our house; then go the beis din, then the underlying reasons wouldn’t matter. The Beis Din would be forced to order me to provide a Get, i.e., civilly divorced and not living together. But you’re saying without a civil divorce, just the wife can go to a beis din & demand a Get?

Lilmod, you’re saying our Rabbi did such a great job by allowing my wife to complain about me but I disagree. Provided there’s no actual controlling or abuse going on, if the Rabbi allows the wife to complain about these issues without ever asking for real-life examples, which I assume he never did, then I think the Rabbi’s empathy is actually counter-productive.

Zaha, per the Jewish Press, the lack of money is definitely a bad thing. A wife who can’t put on a proper shabbos dinner or clothe the children isn’t gonna be as cheerful as she would otherwise be. So yes, you’re correct, a working ATM machine, in & of itself won’t bring happiness but being able to pay for weddings, yeshiva, tzedekkah & such should & does bring me a certain level of satisfaction.

Joseph, by “super-friendlyl,” I mean she speaks & confides in the Rabbi all the time. The Rabbi initially insisted he knew I was controlling & abusive because my wife has been telling him this for over 20 years. It’s the same complaint over & over. BTW, i never knew about this. The Rabbi said he gave my wife a book on controlling & my wife said “it described me to a T; to a T.” Of course, it was nonsense because they had no examples. That’s what i meant by “super-friendly.” And we’re both active volunteers in our shul; and the Rabbi & our kids are same ages, etc… etc…

Abba S., thanks for pointing out what a shailos is & I may speak to my wife about going to the Bais Horaah of Lakewood. As an aside, my Rabbi & wife are super-friendly. My Rabbi was 100% adamant all the charges against me were true & a beis din would order me to give my wife a get. After I pressed the issue & neither my wife or Rabbi could come up with even one example to support the controlling and abuse charges, my Rabbi was like I’m just going by what I was told. I asked twice if a beis din would really order me to give a Get; he kept saying absolutely – no doubt about it. Hopefully, the Bais Horah can clarify things. Thanks & lehitraot.