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March 30, 2018 9:46 am at 9:46 am in reply to: Amazon is great – they’ve created tens of thousands of jobs!!!!!!!! #1501918Lenny1970Participant
It’s definitely a trade off… The one hand, a few people in traditional retail will lose their jobs… On the other hand, a lot of people have a lot more buying power which will enhance their lives. Net result is that Amazon and Walmart or a benefit.
Lenny1970ParticipantFascinating topic… be better gave English translations along with the Hebrew
Lenny1970ParticipantI just want to say the quality of responses on these boards beat goin to any counselor any day of the week. I agree w/ what everyone is saying. I just wanted an official decision saying i didn’t do anything materially wrong to justify the divorce. But then again, like the posters on here are saying, when one person wants out, the reasons don’t matter. So I’ll probably skip going to a beis din for a decision. I just ordered The Garden of Peace book. Thanks again for everyones input.
Lenny1970ParticipantRebYidd, it was already decided on another thread that one person can’t unilaterally walk out of a marriage.
Lenny1970ParticipantYYTz, I tried getting my wife to read “The Jewish Way in Love and Marriage,” by Maurice Lamm. She didn’t agree with it; especially the part about clearly defined roles. So I highly doubt another book would help. But thanks anyway.
Lenny1970ParticipantYW Moderator, yes, on the causes of the divorce; which i’m trying not to go into. But “no” on finding someone who represents people in front of Beis Dins. I’ve searched & talked to numerous people. Can’t find anyone. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, I’m just not religious. I wasn’t bar mitzvhd until i was 40 and in the Army. I believe the Arbitration Agreement was mutually cancelled b/c it was legally deficient, i.e., blank scope & none of the Beis Din members were lawyers. I don’t want to give a Get b/c i want to try marriage counselding & stay married. I assume BD of America would be more like our sheila Rabbi & side w/ me; but I don’t know that for a fact. My wife became religous about 23 years ago. I’m fine with it. She buys expensive sheitels, we send our kids to yeshiva, israel, etc… etc… Kids are all religious; including 2 who are black hat. End goal is to get into marriage counseling with the Rabbi/counselor who thinks i’m a good guy & marriage workable. I’m really trying to find someone who represents people and knows how beis din work. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantThe saga continues… I convinced the Arbitrator (Beis Din) to change the terms of the Agreement. The new Agreement says the first Agreement is still in effect. The new agreement contains what I believe to be extortionist demands. I believe Agreement #2 is extortionist because it lacks consideration for what I have to do, i.e., “. . . obligates himself to move out of their marital home on or before two weeks from today . . .” The Agreement could read “In exchange for Mrs. xyz agreeing to pay all household expenses on their primary residence, Mr. xyz obligates himself to move out of their marital home on or before two weeks from today.” But it doesn’t. Does anyone w/ a legal background know if these one-sided concessions make the contract invalid and unenforceable? Thanks
Lenny, any advice you’ve been getting here is clearly not working. You should hire a real lawyer. Best of luck. -25
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/overturn-a-beis-din-decision/page/2#post-642952
Lenny1970ParticipantJ.C. Penney … when they’re on sale… value is unbelievable… if you nail the size properly, no alterations needed… and they look really good
Lenny1970ParticipantAbove is a typo… should say JP Penney
Lenny1970ParticipantIf Penney ‘s stafford suits… wait for a sale…
Lenny1970Participantfrumnot, right, b/c I engage in personal attacks; as opposed to discussing the subject matter, that’s why i have to be #3. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantMammele – good advice to spend on an attorney going forward. Agreed.
Lenny1970ParticipantCould another reason why the Agreement is invalid because it states “. . . all the controversies (claims and counterclaims) between the undersigned Parties. . .” At the time of the hearing, the only controversy I was aware of was the Get/No Get issue. I wasn’t aware of any other controversies, claims, counterclaims or any other disputes between us. At the time of the hearing, the game plan with my wife was only about do I have to issue a Get or not. That was the only controversy. In fact, in the hearing, I told the Beis Din they can’t rule on division of assets and living arrangements because we’re first going to divorce mediation for those items. The Beis Din said too bad.
Lenny1970Participantjoseph, right now, i’m in FL tryin to figure out my mom’s health issues… but i told the Bs Din administrator i’d go along w/ a 50/50 division & counseling. he cam back w/ 50/50 divis & no counsleing & i said fine. when i get back, i believe is when i’ll sign some type of pre-final agreement to move out & such. On the guns, correct, never heard that one ever. So I do think she was coached. I still haven’t rec’d the decision in writing. I think they’re goin to wait for me to sign the pre-final agreement befor issuing their decision. Yes, i do have the Agreement. It’s in English. Again, I think it comes down to the scope of the written, which just says “”WE, the undersigned (Parties), hereby agree to submit to binding arbitration all the controversies (claims and counterclaims) between the undersigned Parties, including without limitation: ___________________________” The “fill-in” remains blank. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantOopps… just realized the example I gave wasn’t a good one, as it talks to excessive damages. I’m arguing no authority for the ruling. I should have said if the homeowners issue was on the trees encroaching on neighbor’s property, can the arbitration panel order the offender to get rid of his unsightly 1970 Oldsmobile, which is an eyesore? Or does the arbitrator have to stick to only the “tree?” Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantI just want to be clear. My soon-to-be ex-wife & I have zero violence. She may have said I could bcome violent on earlier meetings, but nowhere near the extent to what i heard in the beis din hearing. Civilly, per below, i think i would not be ruled against…. as there’s no history of violence:
Lenny1970ParticipantCtlawyer or anyone, there does appear to be some limits on the arbitrator. If you live in a homeowners assn, and you have a dispute over a neighbor’s trees encroaching on your property line, can the arbitrator rule the violator has to pay the offended neighbor $1 million? I would hope not. But CT lawyer, you’re saying if the agreement is like mine, the sky is the limit. So here’s what i found
link removed per NYS, “An arbitration award can be vacated by a court pursuant to CPLR 7511 (b) (1) (iii) on only three narrow grounds: if it is clearly violative of a strong public policy, if it is totally or completely irrational, or if it manifestly exceeds a specific, enumerated limitation on the arbitrator’s power”
link removedIn a 7/19/10 ruling, the Suprement Court “Holding that arbitrator being itself a constituent of an agreement to such effect . . . The Court. . . held that the arbitrator derived its authority from the agreement and his terms of reference being determined by the agreement, he could not pass an award against or beyond the contractual stipulations.”
Lenny1970ParticipantCtlawyer, I hope you’re wrong. So you’re saying since the scope is unstated, the arbitration panel can rule on anything and everything? I would hope just the opposite. But you’re probably right. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantDaas, these abuse issues never heard before. For example, he’s unstable and violent. He has guns. I’m afraid he’s going to use the guns on me.
Lenny1970ParticipantThe 2nd thing I said is that if the Beis Din’s ruling covers anything other than a Get/No Get decision, the decision goes beyond the scope of what the parties agreed to. Specifically, in all of my pre-hearing discussions with the Beis Din, both orally & in emails, we only discussed the Get/No Get decision. Per the “AGREEMENT TO SUBMIT TO ARBITRATION,” the word “asset” is not even mentioned once. Just found an article, which i think may apply to my case, saying courts have held Arbitrators can’t go beynd the Agreement. Not sure if CT lawyer or anyone out there w/ an opinion. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantThanks for all the feedback. Some of it i agree with fully. So I spoke to the Rabbi who works for the Beis Din. I told him 2 thngs: #1 – i’ll write the Get if they give me a fair settlement.
Lenny1970ParticipantLitebritre, I came in after they spoke to my wife and Rabbi separately. I assume they asked for a bigger settlement and to skip the get.
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, my wife and our rabbi were there. Our rabbi represented my wife. The beis din said things like the marriage was not repairable. They also believed her charges of abuse. I stated the abuse charges were never raised before this hearing and couldn’t possibly be true.
Lenny1970ParticipantRandom – they really didn’t seem to concerned w/ me issuing a Get. I think they just wanted to give my wife about 90-100% of the marital assets. Can i call them tomorrow & ask if i give a Get w/ they change the settlemnt?
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, trust me, it was heard & decided on same day. I objected to paying support for my wife b/c we make about the same amount of money. They said it doesn’t matter. They told me NJ gives Beis Din absolutely authority to make any decisions they wish to make. I almost thought i was in a Soviet Union gulag.
Lenny1970ParticipantFlat – I think it’s too late to give a get. I think the decision is to make me penniless and forget about the Get altogether.
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, the beis din we went to:
Bais Din Maysharim
625 Forest Ave
Lakewood, NJ, 08701
Lenny1970ParticipantZaha, you’re right. But hindsight is always 20/20. These Boards & the Sheila Rabbi we went to convinced me that the Beis Din wouldn’t rule against me. My bad. So is there a lawyer or strategy for getting around the Beis Din’s decision? thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantHealth, what does e /o stand for? thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantDoes anyone know if I can take my wife to a beis din? Currently, she’s not talking to me. We’re not in counseling b/c I see it as pointless if she’s giving me the silent treatment to include taking separate cars to counseling. So given what the posters & our Sheila Rabbi have said about not ordering a husband to give a Get just b/c the wife asks for one, I’m considering taking my wife to the beis din. My plan is to ask the Beis Din to hear our case & decide if my wife should resume speaking to me & being a wife again; or whether I have to give her a Get. In this manner, I believe our impasse could be resolved. If the Beis Din strongly ordered my wife to drop all divorce actions, I think she would listen to them. Or do I just have to wait for my wife to eventually schedule an appointment? As an aside, I’ve asked my wife to take me to a Beis Din like she threatened doing much earlier on, to bring this to a resolution one way or the other, but she won’t tell me what she plans on doing. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantAvram, if you’ve ever known a wife who has checked out, you would know your solution is more polyanic than anything else. But thanks anyway.
Lenny1970ParticipantAvram, imagine living a life where the children and grandchildren are full of midos. No money or health issues. But things are going terribly wrong in your marriage. Would you try and fix the marriage or divorce?
Lenny1970ParticipantAbba_S, just an fyi… the sheilah hotline Rabbi & the Rabbi we met with personally from the Bais Horaah of Lakewood both said that under our circumstances, they definitely wouldn’t order me to issue a Get. The Sheila Rabbi we met with said I should to save myself the aggravation, but they wouldn’t order me to do so. So if I get served to appear, I’ll defintely try to get the beis din changed to the Bais Horaah of Lakewood. Unless someone knows of a better one for my issues. Thanks & shavuah tov.
Lenny1970ParticipantWinnie, in theory everyone can be in counseling. It sounds therapeutic to lie down on a couch & vent. Unless there’s a specific issue to work on, I just don’t see the benefit. Shavuah tov.
Lenny1970ParticipantAbba S., our gameplan was going to be the drafting of a marital settlement agreement (MSA) in Mediation. But you’re saying to go to the Bais Horaah of Lakewood to write up the MSA? I didn’t know they could do that. Thanks.
Lenny1970Participanthealth, what does “Ackstion” mean. I googled & can’t locate. thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, what does “butei dinim” mean… i googled & can’t find. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantHeath, yourself and others have said a beis din won’t order me to write a get. That’s what I find most puzzling. If this is indeed the case, and it’s also what our sheila rabbi said, then why is she threatening me with this action? I hope she doesn’t know something I don’t know. Thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantJoseph, so no screening process to hear cases? That’s crazy. And yes, I’ll probably get summoned & will definitely go to whichever Beis Din my wife selects. Thanks. And negative on approaching more Rebbeim. I highly doubt it could help. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantLilmod, trust me, right now, i’m just in need of getting my wife to drop the silent treatment & take down the wall if you know what i mean. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantWould anyone know if the beis din would even take her case & order me to appear? I assume my wife w/ have to go to the Beis Din & fill out a form or tell someone why she wanted her case heard. If they asked what her grounds for demanding a Get were; and she said things along the same lines she’s said so far to our Rabbi, sheila Rabbi & Counselor, i.e., she’s tired of me & such, is it possible the Beis Din would not even bother holding a hearing? Or will I have to go to a hearing regardless of the merits of her case? Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantYW, if my wife said if I go for individual counseling was a condition to staying married, then yes, i would do so, even if I thought it was stupid. It wouldn’t make a difference to her either way. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantUbiquitin, the easy thing w/be to cave in & give her a Get. I’m not like that. I’m hoping she has a change of heart if/when the Beis Din shoots down her request to demand me to give her a Get.
Lenny1970ParticipantLilmod, actually, the counselor said both of us need individual counseling + marriage counseling. I’m not doing the individual until “real” marriage counseling starts. I know some may say why not do individual. For me, it would be a waste of $150/hr. I’m relatively productive in all other aspects of life. To my knowledge, he didn’t find anything wrong with me, e.g., an explosive temper or inability to get along w/ others, etc… nothing like that.
Lenny1970ParticipantUnfortunately, my case has taken a turn for the worse. My wife is now having zero contact with me. At home, she makes her food & then locks herself in her separate bedroom. She won’t even drive with me to counseling; let alone talk to me before or after counseling. It’s the killer silent treatment. She’s just attending the 5 counseling sessions to satisfy the sheila Rabbi’s request. So I stopped the counseling sessions until she stops the silent treatment and resumes talking to me. She’s threatened to just take her case to the Beis Din to have them order me to give her a Get. I think I’m going to let her threat play out and see what happens. I don’t believe the Beis Din would order me to giver her a Get. In which case we can then go to marriage counseling and she’ll take it seriously; at least that’s my hope. If anyone has any suggestions, especially on how to get her to drop the silent treatment, I’d love to hear it. Thanks.
Lenny1970ParticipantCounselor met with us & heard us out for 2 hours. I finally got to hear why my wife is so mad at me. It was kind of dumb stuff like my fight with my son for not allowing me to hold my grandaughter. Counselor wants me in individual counseling; so maybe I have problems I’m not aware of. He said we should have gone for serious marital counseling years ago; thinks we can make it work; for it to work, the wife would have to agree to hit the reset button & give husband 4 months probation; husband would need individual counseling and wife’s attempt would have to be sincere. If the wife had no interest in making it work other than fulfilling the Sheila’s requirement to attend 5 counselings; not only did he guaranty it would not work, but he would not be able to see us because it would be unethical for him to take our money if he knew nothing good could come out of it. My wife will think it over on whether we resume counseling or not; or whether she just goes straight to the beis din & demands a Get.
Lenny1970ParticipantWhere does the asset division take place… mediation or Beis din… if in mediation, I would think it would have to be 50/50… thanks
Lenny1970ParticipantMW13 is spot on. How can we say divorce is too high when no one states or even estimates what the divorce rate is? From personal expereince, I believe the divorce rate in the frum community is around 5-6%.
Lenny1970ParticipantAbba S or anyone, is there actually something that says a wife only gets somewhere between $50,000 to $75,000 in a divorce? as opposed to 50% of everything. I would love to see that. I googled on the subject and couldn’t locate anything. We were planning on a 50/50 split. But if there’s something that says halachically the wife only gets $75k, I would love to see it. Thanks.
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