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Oomis,
Fair enough. I am also unsure as to whether adoption fulfills the mitzva of pru u’rvu, but that is not the issue.
I was just adding a point to Frumguy’s sentiment, that if for whatever medical reason a couple cannot naturally fulfill the mitzva of pru u’rvu, perhaps public funds would be better used elsewhere as there are many ways a couple can build a family, regardless of their fertility status.
Of course couples who can fulfill the mitzva should, I am just wondering to what extent it is necessary to fulfill the actual mitzva of pru u’rvu, or to help others fulfill it with public funds, when it is not in a couples natural capability.
Oomis,
Would raising children as if they were ones own not fulfill the mitzva of having children if it is clear that one cannot conceive naturally? (and that means without fertility treatments)
Must a child be born from ones own body for it to be considered ones own?
Perhaps we are being too harsh on Frumguy. You may not share his opinion, but his question reminds me of a conversation I had with someone recently.
This person expressed the same sentiment as Frumguy and like the rest of you I was horrified at his/her insensitivity. How could anyone be so callous to the pain of childless couples? But then he/she clarified and explained…
In a world where there are so many orphaned, abandoned and broken yiddishe neshamos who need warm loving homes, why are we pouring public funds into excruciating medical treatments to create new children? There are so many already on this earth who could benefit from loving yiddishe parents. There is more than one way to have children.
Just something to think about.
And may Hashem bentch all couples with healthy, beautiful children.
I don’t wish to embarrass you. Trust me.
And if you are who I think you are I’m not even sure why you would suggest that.
AZ,
“btw i’m not sure what you mean
‘I am sure there are two who do not. I know a few quite personally.’
are you sure as in you are guessing, or do you know personally.”
What I meant was that I know a number of Rabbonim who are against the program, the “I am sure” was only on my speculation that the number of Rabbonim who are against it outnumber those who are for it. I thought that was clear.
And yes, I have bothered to share my feelings. The response I got was rude, attacking, and left me more unimpressed than ever. But I wasn’t going to air that grievance in this forum. Thanks for asking though.
AZ,
For every Rav that endorsed the project, I am sure there are two who do not. I know a few quite personally.
We have many sources of Daas Torah today Baruch Hashem. We have the liberty to stand up for what we feel is right, and to speak against what we feel is a threat to our mesorah. And in this case we have the same backing of Rabbonim that you do. So please, stop hiding behind the names on your ad. Throughout our history, we had leaders who disagreed on certain issues, and both sides had followings.
We are doing nothing wrong by standing up for our values. You do not frighten me.
AZ,
I have been following your posts and your numerous defenses of Project Nasi in this thread and in others as well.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with the fact that shadchanim appreciate the monetary incentive to work harder on making matches. I don’t think anyone disagrees with the fact that we have a shidduch crisis and more matches need to be made.
I do think however, that the opposition you are facing stems largely from the fact that this new shidduch initiative goes against very core yiddishe hashkafos. Project Nasi is perpetuating the capitalistic view that money equals value. I think the people opposed to this program take offense at Project Nasi’s attempt to put a price on the heads of Jewish daughters like they are goods to be peddled at market. The older they are, the further their value gets discounted, and so you ask for more money to clear them out.
Yes, the project may be seeing results. The program may make sense from an economic standpoint, I am not arguing that. I think though, that you may have lost sight of the fact that the ends doesn’t always justify the means. We are a holy nation, and certain things we just don’t do. Putting a price tag on the shidduch of our daughters is one of those things. I don’t care what results you see. Lack of a better current program is not an excuse. Sit quietly until you, or someone else finds one. Because this is not an answer.
We are better than this. We as a people have prouder values than those of capitalistic America. Please, please stop this travesty.
Why is it funny to start troll threads?
The original post wasn’t even funny. Not as in because if it was true it would be sick, just as in that was a lame joke in any case.
Seems like a waste of time, why we even giving this attention?
Why am I even responding?
Ok, Ok, just reread the thread.
Popa, you mean that if both women yelled don’t chop it means that its not possible that a switch occurred, rather the one who lost her baby is just bitter and confused, and honestly thinks the live baby might be hers.
Now what if the babies were switched. And the switcher wants a live baby very badly (that is why she did such a deed). But standing in that courtroom before the king who decides the live baby must be chopped, she realizes the game has gone too far, and she doesn’t want a baby to die at her expense. After all her goal was to care for and raise a Jewish neshama, however misguided her method of acquiring a new one was; her goal initially was not to kill another women’s baby.
So I think it is very plausible to assume that even if she was so pained that she was driven to switch the babies, she might have been too compassionate to just allow a child to die. Even if she knew it wasn’t her own.
So now both the real mother and the switcher yell don’t chop! What happens now? She confesses? But she wants that live baby!
So Popa, it is possible that both women would yell don’t chop, even if the switch occurred. You have to consider all cases.
Popa,
I don’t quite understand. If the switcher knows that it is in fact not her baby, why would she say don’t chop? In the navi the switcher agrees for the baby to be chopped precisely because it wasn’t her own.
But lets say the switcher yells don’t chop along with the real mother only because she is compassionate and doesn’t want another baby killed. Then according to your answer it seems she would get the baby on sheer virtue of waking up with it? Of course the switcher woke up with it if she switched it! So now the real mom wouldn’t get the baby?
Perhaps I misunderstood your answer. Please explain!
Why don’t we just eliminate the middlemen and just pay the boys directly for dating the girls? $200 bucks for taking out a 22 year old, $300 for a 24 year old, $500 for a 26 year old… Increase by $50 for each year of ascending age…
Father opens door, shakes shalom aleichem, and hands boy the cash as the carrot that brought him through the door. I think this could work.
Now that’s what I call Cash On Delivery.
So let me ask you this, Nasi…
Why are you insisting on collecting the thousands before any list is even compiled, even after hearing the community outrage? Why can’t you just request $500 from every single which should more than cover start-up costs, and request the rest upon completing a shidduch… You don’t trust us Nasi? You don’t trust that the parents of an older single girl will pay due shadchanus when their beloved kid meets her bashert? Oh, ok but we should trust you, without a name behind your cause, without mention of the “prominent Rabbanim” you claim are behind you, without mention of where the money will be kept and who will oversee its financial handling. Oh. Ok.
So you chastise us Nasi. You are quite condescending when you tell us our money would not be that much better off accruing .025% interest in a savings account. So why exactly do you need this money? To invest? So you can earn the interest your telling us we don’t need? Quite interesting that you will not start the program without 50 respondents. Does the hedge fund require a minimum amount of capital?
Nasi, you have defenders. You have those who come out and say “well at least they are trying to help our yiddishe kinderlach.” Yes Nasi, trying to help. Through degrading ads, through an insane request for money that is not necessary to compile a list, through half-baked defense letters with embarrassing comparisons of a ponzi scheme to Eliyahu Hanavi.
I don’t know which is sadder at this point. If we found out you were crooks or if you really ehrlichely believe this is the way to go about helping.
I shudder to think what a chilul Hashem it would cause if the secular world caught wind of this and saw us treating our beloved daughters like cattle for market. If they saw an anonymous group of “helpers” demanding thousands upon thousands of dollars and making you feel guilty for even questioning. C’mon people wake up!
Uch and Vey to our society if this is what our shidduch initiatives need to look like. Uch and Vey that Nasi’s ad was even somewhat plausible to our messed up psyches.
Oh cmon my first word was so much better! I know it wasnt the nicest but they deserved it!
Plain and Simple this ad stinks.
edited
NEEDIDEAS:
I’m very impressed by your post. Shidduchim always involve 2 parties and you quickly learn that you win some and you lose some. I think your attitude is mature and compassionate, and at the end of the day your so right about being allowed to say no but being human and caring about causing hurt.
I find that it is harder for me to reject than to be rejected, and I always just allay the guilt by reassuring myself that its about tachlis and the system allows you to say no. Still, its never easy to think you might have hurt someone and I try to daven for everyone I went out with that didn’t work. Especially the one who rejected me. It never hurts to care.
well for starters, we can address your need to use excessive punctuation. I would mention your caps problem too but other members seem to have expressed this issue already.
BS,
hahaha you know i’m right. I love it. Looove it.
BS,
You??? Stupid things?! No………….
Gumball,
I think you overwork a bit.
To BS:
The disrespect in your post is appalling. What a way to refer to the woman who basically saved generations of yiddishe mothers, thereby saving their kids and kid’s kids. Obviously when Gedolim decided to support the Bais Yaakov movement they did feel it was integral for girls’ yiddishkeit. A solid Jewish education for Jewish girls who are the mothers and builders of Klal Yisroel is hardly superficial.
True that those who struggled and grew know a certain stamina that others may not have, but fact of the matter:
You were in the fire, you got burnt…
So tough call
Thanks mommamia,
Just nervous that all these signs can seem fine and something could still get funky later… bH ok with the friends thing but i feel like these kinds of people can be amazing to their friends but not spouses
Now might just be a good time to let everyone know that the breakdancer broom dude is my absolute fave
🙁 Im scared out of my wits… what is theyr just nice to you cuz ur dating?
I feel like there are too many of those stories not to be scared. But we pray. Are signs always obvious?
MiddlePath,
I have been following this thread since you first posted and I just want to let you know that I cried for you. Don’t know if that helps any but I hope Hashem blesses you with a long happy and healthy future, where you should be able to be the pillar of support and role model you never had for others.
🙁 cmon guys help me out here. I like this thread!
Wow mommamia, I am so sorry that you had(ve) to go through all that, and I pray that Hashem help you and only bentch you with much good and happiness in the future. And peace in all your relationships.
wherdya go frumguy
mommamia… um… so after st like that happens do you stay in that marraige? is that ok or normal? just trying to make sense out of the water thing… sorry if I’m being a bit direct…..
BUMP! please
Lol Frumguy, just LOL
so the coats are funny looking but way more practical than umbrellas wouldn’t you agree?
“I don’t think you would look ridiculous dressing up on a date, any more than you do wearing a shabbos outfit to a starbucks.”
So she would look that much more ridiculous in a wedding dress in starbucks.
Fact of the matter is that girls should dress nicely on dates. Wedding dresses is just really pushing it. Besides, if a girl is put together and is dressed in nice clothes i’d venture to say most Yeshiva boys do not get the difference between a shabbos to shul dress, shabbos afternoon dress, vort dress, motzei shabbos when you want to dress nice dress, etc. Girls just have to look good. They do not have to be in silk and chiffon and sequins and taffeta like they would be at a wedding.
“That’s ridiculous. It is the occasion which is fancy, not the venue.You would dress up for a wedding even if it was on the beach. You would dress up for an interview even if it was in a laid back office.”
Not true. The venue of a wedding is usually fancy because the occasion is fancy. And to less fancy weddings, girls dress in less fancy dresses. And people wear different interview outfits depending on the type of interview and level of chilledness. So dates, which are occasions that are not as fancy as weddings, in addition to being held at venues which are less fancy than wedding halls, do not warrant outfits that are as fancy as those girls would wear to a wedding.
Plain and simple Popa.
Popa,
Whats not believable about dressing appropriately for an occasion. weddings are fancy so girls dress fancy. hotel lounges or restaurants not so much.
DUH
And if you think that way its like seriously guys, stay on your side of the mechitza
not to attract RANDOM MEN?!!
So Popa did it ever dawn on you that maybe the girls get dressed all pretty by weddings because it is a tremendous occasion and they are dressing to reflect the granduer of the event, for the balei simcha and for the chasunah, and
“Boys dress like they would to go to a wedding for a first date, and girls should also.”
DREAM ON
Awww Tweet-
I hope you both get very happy endings
and Bear, LOL
I happen to love this thread.
a few odd features? Whats the difference between that and ugly?
and adorable- if hes okay then attraction can definetly follow
if it was bad enough to make you dump him then i doubt that would be workable later. unless you got desperate
Wow but still.
Wow a third chance?? Wow thats brave.. he said no twice and asked for 3? whoa
True they can say no again. Or it can be the right thing… If you like yourself enough to handle it its probably better to go for it than stand on ceremony. Presuming you want him/her still.
WIY-
Phew I thought that was some movie reference I wasn’t getting and I was feeling out of it
i feel like its so sad when couples have to wait that long to realize what was right all along.. I get the concept of “right time” but just seems like if they were the right people for eachother its a pity they couldn’t have had more time together, or an easier time the first round of dating