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kooljewMember
Gavra at Work: I agree with you in principle but he does actually have the words “kol kvodah”. I’m not sure if he was hinting to the concept of kol kovda bas melech pnima, or just using those words for their exact meaning.
kooljewMemberTemimus: When I said we are past that I meant in this discussion. You obviously didn’t read the previous posts. Women do many mitzvos by going outside like walking outside to shul to hear shofar, going to shul to hear megillah, going outside to join a tzibbur for tefillah, tashlich (ok that’s a sore point). To single out one mitzvah, namely of Kiddush levanah because of kol kvodah is ridiculous. Also, as I pointed out Kiddush levanah can be done in the woman’s backyard. So while kol kovoda is certainly relevant it hasn’t stopped women from doing other mitzvos. So why single out Kiddush levanah. Daas Yochid was trying to explain it that based on a Chasam sofer that Kiddush levanah was usually done in a group of mostly men outdoors and at night so specifically Kiddush levanah developed this minhag. And I hear that, but to just say kol kvoda is untenable.
kooljewMembertemimus: we are past that. why do women go outside to go to shul or to hear shofar? There is nothing wrong for a woman to go outside for a few minutes to her backyard to say Kiddush levanah
kooljewMemberI initially expressed surprise at kol kvoda being a source for the minhag for women not to say Kiddush levana. While the Chasam Sofer would say that it is not, I could hear a different acharon going further and saying that it is. But basically I objected to kol kovoda being the sole explanation. And I still say that it can’t be. Of course women go outdoors all the time to do mitzvos. It isn’t really that, it’s a lack of tznius for a women to attend a male dominated gathering. That is not usually the context for kol kvoda. The gemora uses that to say that women don’t usually go collecting by knocking on doors. Here if we follow the way the Chasam Sofer used the sevora, since Kiddush levanah was usually said by men outdoors in a gathering at night, it is a lack of tznius for women to attend that gathering. There is nothing wrong per se for a woman to go outside to do a mitzvah. So I would still say that I was right in my initial assumption and that DaasYochid agrees with me as he himself states “It’s not just walking outside, it’s a gathering.” Kol kavoda applies in non gathering situations as well. So it’s a little misnomer to use that expression. Agav the Chasam Sofer did not use the exact expression kol kavoda bas melech pnimis because like I said it would not have been applicable. That it used for indoors as opposed to outdoors. Nothing to do with a gathering. But the Chasam Sofer does say kol koavoda. So perhaps the acharon took a poetic license and used that expression for a situation not generally referred to. We would have to find the acharon that said the sevora and see if that really is what he meant.
kooljewMemberDaasYochid: Yasher Koach! I really enjoyed that Chasam Sofer. I’m sorry I didn’t look it up sooner. Thank you! I have to think further about it. But please realize that the mishne berura does not bring that down but brings down a different reason. When I asked about Shofar and tefillah if you’re going like the Chasam Sofer it’s specifically because it’s not tznius for women to go outside at NIGHT and be around men. It would not apply to any mitzvah done by day where women of course go outdoors. So my questions were valid. Still, don’t women go out at night also? Is the Chasam Sofer saying women should not go out at night? No of course not! Every night of Chanuka there is only one preferred time to do the mitzvah. If a women wanted to do the mitzvah ktikun chachomim she would go outside around nightfall and light at night with all the other men. She couldn’t do it a different night because each night is its own mitzvah. Also, she couldn’t do it later because that is not ktikun chachomim. In fact there are poskim today in Eretz Yisrael that say that if one missed nightfall at the preferred time he no longer makes a beracha. Now in America, we say the ikur pisumei nisa is indoors. But originally, after there were no longer people walking in the street, the mitzvah was over. There was a very small window of opportunity to fulfill the mitzvah. Consequently, all the men were outside at that exact time.The Chasam Sofer says this exact point it is not tznius for women to go 1. outdoors 2. at night 3. with all the men around. Kiddush Levanah has at least a week in which she could or any man could do it Lechatchila. There is no tikun chachomim to do it the first possible time. There might be other enhancements like zrizim or bigdei Shabbos or rov am, but a man who recited Kiddush levanah alone on the 13th day has fulfilled the mitzvah lechatchila. No bdieved’s involved. Not so by Chanuka where if you didn’t do the mitzvah at that time, it either was not a mitzvah or nowadays possibly bdieved. So I definitely see your point from the Chasam Sofer but it really doesn’t apply to Kiddush levanah. I would venture to say that the Chasam Sofer would disagree with you for the reasons I mentioned but I can’t argue that you definitely found a basis for someone to hang their hat on.
kooljewMemberI use Pageplus for the best service. They use verizon’s network. I too use the droid incredible but battery dies often.
kooljewMembercomputer777 That’s a good question. Ask the maharshal he says the sevora only by chanuka candles. The mishne berura quotes him by chanuka candles and nowhere else. Not by tefila, lulav, megillah, shofar. Like i said earlier chanuka candles and ishto kigufo are totally irrelavent to this discussion of kiddush levanah. I guess min hadin one person lighting suffices for the entire family. So we’ll use ishto kgufo to say that mehadrin doesn’t apply to them. We dont really have that anywhere else. But no one says ishto kegufo by kiddush levanah thats for sure.
kooljewMemberDaas Yochid: I actually don’t believe your entire premise of chanuka has any basis. where does it say that women don’t light because of kol havoda? For whatever reason they hold ishto kigufo. Also, once again I must point out that the mitzva of brov am has nothing at all to do with kiddush levanah more than any other mitzva. According to you, women shouldn’t daven or hear havdlah or shofar because brov am applies to them as well.
kooljewMemberDaas Yochid: One may recite Kiddush Levanah on their own.Although there is a mitzva of Brov Am but that applies equally to every single mitzvah. We don’t say women shouldn’t hear havdalah because there is a mitzvah of brov am. Eliminating kiddush levanah because they might come to a gathering doesn’t make sense. Let women eliminate shofar.Rebbe Yisrael Salanter was quoted as saying women should daven at home. He didn’t say lets adopt a minhag that women don’t daven. A woman who wants to daven at home without brov am is fine. Likewise, if there is a tznius issue we should tell women to recite kiddush levanah at home. There are other reasons mentioned by the poskim why women don’t say kiddush levanah. But I don’t think kol kevoda bas melech is one of them.
kooljewMemberWomen go outside for every reason under the sun but they have a minhag not to go outdoors for one minute because kol kavodah bas melech?
How do they walk to shul? Does the walk take longer than a minute?
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