I suppose that on very many issues here we shall have to respect each other’s divergent views and leave it at that.

My son was at the Jerusalem Recruiting Office this morning for his second appointment/interview. In no way do I view his having to serve as unfortunate. My wife & I told him that serving is a mitzvah, an honor (a privilege even!) and an obligation. I think the IDF is a very appropriate place for Jewish men & women.

I do, in one sense, admire Neturei Karta (though I consider them about as Jewish as the Samaritans or Karaites, who, by the way serve in the IDF, as do Druze, Bedouin & increasing numbers of Arab Christians). They are consistent. They are not hypocrites. They take, and give, nothing to the state, unlike, “Gafni and his ilk” as Gavra’ said.

Hi guys! (I assume?)

Sam2, you said:

“…it seems that many, many people don’t really believe that the Torah protects them…”

As erroneous as this is, you are correct. The question for us so-called “frum” Yidden is: What is the best way to get more people to believe that Torah *does* protect them? I would humbly submit that greater involvement in general society, not withdrawal from it, is (at least part of) the key. We can’t be a light to the nations, or to our own people, if the light of Torah is all shut up in a few places.

“About Frumkeit in the army. Yes, there are major problems. I have long since felt, though, that the more Frum people that join the more Frum the army will become…”

153% right on the money! Correct, correct, correct! It’s easy to sit way up in the cheap seats & criticize what’s going on on the field. It’s a far greater challenge (that ‘nothing ventured, nothing gained’ thing), and one will have a far greater effect, if one actually comes down & gets in the game.

Ben Levi, you said:

“Is “Shivyon B’Netel’ about chareidim sharing combat risks?”

No, of course it isn’t; you are corect.

“Those that don’t volunteer serve in positions that are largley out of the line of fire and hardship…”

Correct but…

The tanks/jets/submarines/etc. need to be maintained & fixed. Somebody has to work all the computers, staff the armories & depots, etc. The importance of support personnel must/can/should not be dismissed or sneezed at. Shivyon B’Netel is also about people taking an equal share of these hardships & jobs.

We may indeed be at an ideological impasse and may have to file this under “Agree-to-disagree (but amicably so).”

“We believe that the Yeshivos, and the Kollelim that is unparelled in the entire world and is largley chareidi, is what provide’s the zchusim for the combat missions to be successful.”

Try to imagine how awfully hollow this sounds to people sitting shiva for a 19-year-old who was killed in a clash with terrorists even as his 17-year-old sibling gets ready to be inducted. Don’t we believe that it is not enough to be clear in the eyes of Hashem (as it were) but in the eyes of Am Yisrael as well?

Gavra’, you posted:

“I have always argued and continue to argue that Shivyon B’netel is solely about money, and the rest of Israel not wanting to support permanent kollel. I truly believe that if the offer was made to stop all support and not be drafted, it would be accepted by the government.”

You are 154% correct. People would like to learn in kollel full-time? Go right ahead. Just please do not expect me to pay for it (see my first post above). I’ve only lived here for 27+ years but I think most non-charedi Israelis could live with this.

I came to Israel when I was 23 and eventually did 4 months compulsory service (“Shlav Bet” as it was called; I think it has been done away with.): A 3-week basic training & then the 13-week combat medic course. I did my annual stints of reserve duty (“miluim”) on the Lebanese border, in the south Lebanon security zone, on the Egyptian border, just outside Yerushalayim (15 paces outside the eruv) and in the Jordan valley (lots). I was at a tiny little post once where I stopped eating cooked food (other than the fleshig lunch that was delivered daily) because I was the only frum soldier there & realized that the kashrut of the tiny kitchen was very suspect. What a kiddush Hashem it would be if there was a mashigiach kashrut at every base & post who could also be responsible for the shul (lain, give shiurim, etc.)? There could be charedi hesder yeshivot, charedi mechinot, etc. The Air Force has a very successful program for charedi computer personnel. One year I was seconded (as the Brits say) to the Nahal Charedi unit down in the Jordan Valley back when the unit was still brand new (I was with the second group to be inducted). At the base where we were (north of Jericho), there were no women, the kitchen was mehadrin/glatt & there were no exercises during the time allotted for shaharit (in the shul). This could be done many times over. More frameworks could be created. “If you build it, they will come.” (I love that movie.)

With goodwill on all sides, this issue is not insoluble.

I *really* mean no disrespect.

Our eldest son (11th grade) is now going through the preliminaries vis-a-vis his eventual induction into the IDF for what should be at least 3 years of compulsory service. I served in the IDF reserves for 11 years (during which time I was in Lebanon, on the Egyptian border & in the Jordan Valley). How is it that our son and thousands of his peers should be the hewers of wood & drawers of water (to use a Biblical metaphor) for thousands of other(wise healthy) Jews who use their Torah study to claim privilege for themselves? How is it that, when our son is inducted, my wife & I will have to live with the existential dread that the next knock on the door could be two officers from the Adjutancy Corps when other parents can be rest assured that their children are safe & sound, far from harm’s way, in some haredi yeshiva? (Ditto for my wife/haredi wives back when I was still doing annual reserve duty.)

Defending the Land of Israel and the people who live therein is holy work! The difference between the young man or woman in the IDF and the comfortable haredi yeshiva student is that while the former are living up to the courage of their convictions (and may, chas v’chalila, pay the ultimate sacrifice), the latter’s convictions require no courage (no similar sacrifice). How is it not a gross distortion of Torah that so many healthy Jews use their Torah study as crowns to aggrandize themselves & as spades to dig with while their peers daily risk life and limb? Quoth Abraham Lincoln’s second innaugural address: “It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces”

I am *not* trying to be chatzuf or smart-alecky but there is something here that I do not understand.