re: shechem-see sifsay chachomim, rashi, or hachaim
they have a view totally in line with what i wrote

Are you quoting something?YES PESUKIN IN CHUMASH
I cant find that online anywhere GET A CHUMASH
SO forcing an eishes is h is worse than a besulah. what does that prove????
TRUE BUT NOT THE POINT I MADE

And are you forgetting the story ? she introduced herself as his siter NO.ACTUALLY AVROHOM SAID THAT. SHE WAS AGAINST ITit wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m awareEXACTLY WHAT WAS DIFFERENT?
And even if it was, what does this prove that Avimelech doesnt hink rape is bad either.AND HASHEM AGREED OPENLY IN THE PESUKIM Shkoyach your in good companyTRUER WORDS NEVER WRITTEN. TIO BE IN THE COMPANY OF HASHEM IS THE ULTIMATE
As you may know shechem was punished SEVERELY for his act SEE SIFSAY CHACHOMIN RIGHT THEREso I’m not sure what you are proving MY POINT IS WHAT IM PROVING

And don’t try to answer me by saying he was being punished for the worse but of course this was also an issue
Because what was their response when confronted?
I didn’t know she was married. I thought she was his sister. That’s what they told me.
And Hashem responded to avimelech, yes I know you had pure intentions, that’s why I stopped you from sinning.
pure intentions??? He takes a woman by force and that’s called pure intentions???

Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man
.No. I don’t. Stealing is stealing.
The sin is the same.
In shamayim they may add on punishment for intent. But that’s a separate part.
If you want you can call it a compound sin.
Down here we can only deal with the action. So they are both the same.
A king has the right to extra curricular judgemental leeway.
So David hamelech could also punish for intent.
Again your bringing proofs from the fact that we can say multiple sins are worse than one single sin, to try to show that we can evaluate two different sins, one against the other.
I see no proof.
אין הנידון דומה לראיה
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.

Only in today’s dor can anyone even have such a hava amina, i dont even think in sedom they would pose such a question”

Did a rabbi really say this???

You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??”

Yes! Ok we are ??? you are getting it. Sometimes things are so obvious that even in the absence of a source we know it to be true.

Not sure where you got that conclusion from.
I’d be saying that the fact that he is pattur is indicative of the lessening of severity and I’d ask why.
Just like they do.
I wouldn’t conclude by saying, it must be that it’s more severe anyway. Which is what you are saying.
As I said, the ראשונים can say that. I and you can’t.
You can ask anything you want

Hold up of course its fallible. I’m not even sure were I implied otherwise.

By stating that because it’s simple and obvious to you, therefore it can’t be otherwise. That means you can’t be wrong. For if you can be wrong maybe you are wrong over here.

you see this is were I’m getting mixed messages. You say “And maybe just because it’s simple to you, ” But it isnt just me. It is everybody! Not everybody. It’s me and quite a few people who I’ve spoken to. Out of the box thinkers. People who actually think critically instead of just going with the flow.

Even you at times claim you agree “Nobody is claiming that rape is a good thing” So you also think it is bad. How do you know? Do you have a source? Yes. And I stated it and we discussed it.
A persons body is their possession much as their pen is their possession. So I have no right to utilize her body without her permission. If I do so it’s gezel.
My contention, spelled out many times I believe is only that the “second only to murder ” emotion associated with this crime, is not how the Torah views it.
More to the point, do you need a source? Yes yes yes. As soon as you want to convince someone else of anything you need either unassailable proof or an unimpeachable source.
Otherwise it’s just your opinion.
And being as my whole contention is that most Jews today have been affected by “western culture and morals “, showing me that most people feel the way you do is meaningless.
That is exactly what I am arguing on.

Oh totally but if it doesn’t day otherwise you can use seichel. Yes if the Torah said rape isn’t so bad we wouldn’t have this conversation. But using our fickle minds is encourage d.

We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.

you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you

ubiq
“I provided 2 dozen such examples. Though not for this specific case.”
um… im asking you to find specifically in this case
“alarm” another critical thought error! please add to growing list of exceptions to c.t.infallibility

It’s time for truth
nezek tzaar ripui sheves and boshes like any other permanent criminal assault eg chopping of an arm
We are discussing a beulah
As such
There is no nezek (Gemarah)
There is no tzar (gemarah)
There is no ripuy (Rambam)
There is no sheves (if not done during work time)
There is no boshes (if it’s done in private)

So, according to you. We have two people one has 2 kids the other has one. Both sacrificed one kid. The one who has no other kids act is not as bad (less than stealing a pen) than the one who has another. Correct?
Incorrect. We have plenty of sources to tell us otherwise. Why would I ignore all of them.
You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??
Only I would not have the ability to be koveyah that it’s not so, but rather it’s more severe so…
Seems like I’m on the same page as the gemorah?, rishonim, et al.
According to you what is even the question.
Of course it’s worse. Aye why no punishment? I don’t know. Who cares
Move on.

Another chink in the critical thinking

Hitler is a great question.
In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently.
But if you are correct that he never actually physically killed anyone, could ב”ד kill him?
(they could lock him up and starve him to death or feed him dry oats and then water causing his stomach to bust and kill him.
But from a strictly single issue point, would ב”ד be able to punish him for the acts of killing which his orders caused?
I don’t think so.
Does that make him a good person? Heaven forbid!
But IF that’s the din then that’s the din.
Why would that be a problem?
It doesn’t really change anything.
The question would become what’s worse
Killing someone, or telling someone else to kill someone.
Or in his case,
What’s worse killing 6000000 people? Or ordering someone else to murder 6000000 people.
I think it’s worse to actually kill the people.
You think it’s worse to order someone else to do it???
You phrased the question in an unfair way
What’s worse killing one person, or telling someone else to kill 6000000 people.
Because now your mixing multiple issues,
causing the word “worse “, to take on multiple meanings that are at odds with each other.
There is worse as in who is a bigger lowlife.
And worse as in who actually personally did a bigger sin
They don’t have to be the same

Ubiq I don’t know if I typed wrong or I just wasn’t clear
So let me state my position re the molech question. If I’m changing my stance, so be it.
Moloch is doing the same act repeatedly.
It’s not 2 times Moloch is worse than one so how can it be patur.
It’s you did it once. You are chayuv, how does that disappear by doing it again.
One does not need a source to ask the question, for you never negated the act for which you should be chayav.

Our discussion is when comparing / contrasting two disparate acts, can one rely on their own judgement to decide which is worse.
I still say no.
Human nature is diverse and fallible and fickle.
Taken Together that’s a horrible combination to be used for setting moral benchmarks.

Yes I did go to mainstream orthodox yeshiva.
One thing I learned is
First “what does it say ”
Before you discuss, understand, question,…
Make sure you know what it does and doesn’t say. (obviously I can’t know what it doesn’t say somewhere else. I mean on the spot where you are holding. People have a tendency to fill in blanks to have the text “say “what they think it should say.

I have, brought, and you were even in agreement with, multiple sources that the first line approach to creating the hierarchy of severity is to look at the punishment.
Of course there are multitudes of cases where this does not hold true.
My contention is solely that an average person is not capable of sufficiently deciding where that occurs.
I then allowed that to lead me wherever it did.
Another thing I learned from my main rebbe.
If the approach is sound , don’t be afraid to accept the outcome, no matter how bizarre it may seem. (this rebbe happens to be today from the preeminent poskim in Brooklyn today, but I won’t demean him by bringing him in here to get smeared by others, so yes I’m keeping him anonymous)
If there is a real issue with the conclusion, there will be a source to stop you.
Of course all I have said here is talking in learning.
I would not state it to act upon it as it’s extremely weighty responsibility and I don’t think I have the sufficient knowledge base to take that on.
But to have to come on to saying that I never went to yeshiva in order to be able to believe that I can have such an opinion?
The only! Thing you have brought up to directly challenge my opinion is your instinctive gut reaction.
If I’m so far off base you should have no problem finding multiple sources stating that even though there is no punishment clearly spelled out in the Torah, you should know that this sin is terrible. More so than many many others. (I think we could both agree it’s not the number one sin).
Yet you have not come up with a single one.

Oh and BTW, the lor who wiped my yeshiva plate clean without knowing me at all,
Is he the one who I am still waiting for sources, from, from our last thread?
I should just take his opinion, anonymous as it is, on faith?
CMon!
And I don’t recall dodging any questions,
She is not over לפני עוור
She is entitled to save whatever is more important to her however she wants
It’s not her issue
But you never answered my question
A person is threatened
Either rape this טהורה פנויה
Or I’ll kill you?
Rare or חילול שבת
Which?

Ubiq
Your בנין ציון is actually a proof to me
For I have no issue with him making an exception
But who would ever say that you should stand around and watch a person die while you could save his life By harvesting a cadaver??
Critical thinking would of course tell you to take out the necessary organs.
So we see that we cannot rely on our own critical thought process
We must solely rely on guidelines given to us by our חכמים
Whether we understand it or not

When you finished your tranquilizer after my last answer, please answer me this
Someone is threatened
Either rape this פנויה בעולה טהורה או חלל שבת
Which should he do?

Ubiq
Number four is In rashi
i think it’s from a gemarah

Number 21 says “same “

Thank you for providing your list of “exceptions ”
(as an aside, tzoras is a punishment, and according to the sichos mussar that I started this thread with, is from the most severe punishment of them all, but leaving that out won’t change my point at all)
I’m not sure what you hope to accomplish with the list.
You can prove to me that there are hundreds of exceptions.
My contention was and is that the rule is for use in absence of other guidelines.
Similar to your contention that the rule is for use in absence of “my critical thinking “providing me with a guideline.
Just I’m saying that I can’t be the arbiter of determination, I need someone much greater than me, to state so.
Perhaps you feel that is you.
If I knew you were an accomplished Talmid chochom accepted by most of klal yisroel ,perhaps that would be enough.
If I knew you were r Akiva eiger in disguise, it definitely would be enough.

Let’s remember
My whole contention, spelled out in the other thread, which was shut down by the mods, was that our critical thinking has been impacted by western “morals ” to the extent that we have instinctive gut reactions to things, In ways that are totally not in line with the Torahs View.
I used the example of rape because it was similar to a question I believe you had thrown out at the time.
I could use many other examples
But they are not necessarily as “ubiquitous!”
Slavery
Abortion
Child marriage
Polygamy
Racism

Ubiq
“not at all. I have no idea why cheilev is worse than nevilah. It isnt “logical” to me, SO when deciding which is worse, chazal tell us how to determine it. Driving on shabbos doesnt seem that terrible, so chazal say look at the onesh.”

In essence the same as I contended, just you jumped on my phraseology.
What you are saying is
If I don’t think otherwise, then I’ll use the rule.
Had your c.t. given you a Peron why nevailah is worse than cheilev,you would not utilize the rule.
So again, you don’t have a “rule ”
You have
Your c. t.
When unavailable im willing to hear what the Torah thinks.
I prefer to view the world differently.

Ubiq
(sorry about the multiple posts. The mods seem to prefer many short posts)
Your contention that you want to use to codify the situation, that the rule only applies between man and creator but not between man and his fellow man, seems bizarre to me.
Why would /should that be so?
If it’s a logical approach, (which I believe it is) so why should it not be applied to man to man sins as well.
It’s not as if there are no punishments for man to man sins
(even In our topic gay is worse than married)
And you can’t tell me it’s because interpersonal issues have many more factors, because even we’re that to be true, so take them all in to consideration before setting the punishment.
Why should interpersonal crimes have a random scale punishment system??

Ubiq

“SO both of us are stuck with a hard to understand position, is mine so much stranger than yours?””
Absolutely!!
Your position is rating three versions of the same act
A beulah
A besulah
A married lady
Critical thinking would rate the severity in ascending order in the order I listed them as each one adds an additional negative to the equation
A “plain “woman where you violated her
A woman where not only did you violate her but you stole her “freshness ”
A woman where not only did you violate her but you also violated the sanctity of a Jewish marriage.

Whereas you have them listed
A besulah
A married woman
A beulah

How does that add up.

Ubiq
Am analogy
A water carrier is drilling a hole in his bucket
So
If I say “don’t do that! If you make one hole what’s to stop you from making more holes? ” that’s the slippery slope argument.

But if I tell him “don’t do that! A bucket with a hole is not a bucket!! It can’t hold water! “that’s not slippers slope.
That’s a position.

Here to
I’m stating
If you only follow the rule when you see no objection to it, you are never following the rule
Your following yourself mirroring the rule