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November 4, 2019 1:11 am at 1:11 am in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1796977klugeryidParticipant
Ubiq
Just came across this now. Had no idea this conversation had continued.
A few things
Yes I think you’ve summed it up pretty well
But I’ll state it from my perspective
No. It is not absolute that the severity of a sin can be deduced from its punishment, as there are clear examples when this does not work.
However the initial approach IMHO is to judge it that way, if there is a source to show me via. “here “it doesn’t apply, then I don’t apply it there and I move right along.
But I don’t say “to ME it seems that this sin is worse even though that one has a greater punishment. ”As to this
As an aside Ive asked this to KY a few times but havent gotten a clear response. Is it your position that its a worse act for someone to hit someone (gets malkos) than to maim him (pays mamon) ?
I believe I answered you.
The Gemarah is unsure which is worse, malkos or mamon so I would have to (actively) plead the fifth to that question as I don’t feel qualified to take a position on something that the Gemarah is unsure of
I think I did say that already but doesn’t hurt to repeatNovember 4, 2019 12:57 am at 12:57 am in reply to: How much $$$ does a typical Frum family spend on groceries per week? #1796975klugeryidParticipantThinking clearly
Your not reading clearly
(sorry don’t mean it nasty but too juicy to pass up)
I wrote in my post
“Without shabbos”Shabbos is tricky.
There is a huge discrepancy if you make or buy
Here goes, for home made
Challa, five pound of flour plus ingredients $5
Wine $5
Soda? $5
Loaf gefilta fish $8
Family pack chicken $15 (bigger pack for shabbos includes two pieces for soup )
Soup veggies $3
Home made cake $3-5
Shabbos day
Liver $8
Cold cuts (huge range) prepacked variety $15
Cholent meat $5
Rest of cholent $5
“Shalishudis”
Can Of tuna $2
Eggs $1
Dips $6Total $88
Of course the sky is the limit and beyond
I’m just showing it can be done, and I tried to be generous.
Even in this list there is plenty to cut if one needed to do so and still feed everyone to be full.
I’m using Brooklyn average shopping pricesklugeryidParticipantAvi k
Can you explain to me the issue?
What’s wrong?
Is the school not aware that you can ask someone for “help ”
Do they have safeguards in place or not?
If they want to they could easily have the girls write the essay in the school office during the entrance exam.
Obviously they don’t care.
It’s not even an unfair advantage, because everyone else can do it too. When kids in first or second grade are coming in with typed book reports with professional type covers, do the teachers think they did it themselves???
It’s known and accepted in the school world that an. Assignment given to be done at home has a good chance of being done by a proxy.
So what exactly is the issue, that you need defended??November 3, 2019 9:11 am at 9:11 am in reply to: How much $$$ does a typical Frum family spend on groceries per week? #1796743klugeryidParticipantI left out by accident
Three -2 pound loaves of bread (more than enough for a week)
So add another $10 to my list
Making the basic cost $60
Take off a family pack of chicken and you are still at the 150-160$ a week rangeklugeryidParticipantWoah! There haimy
Don’t mix the two
VAad hashmita Is first and foremost, out of Israel at least, a fundraising organization.
Of course they run glitzy ads. That’s unfortunately the only way to get money today. Why is that an issue. They don’t hide that. They trumpet it.
We are trying to raise money please give tons.
How does that compare to this????November 3, 2019 7:47 am at 7:47 am in reply to: How much $$$ does a typical Frum family spend on groceries per week? #1796718klugeryidParticipantLet’s talk numbers of possibility
Family of six children
Two Dozen eggs $2
Bottle milk $2.40
Cream cheese $4
Two boxes macaroni (constantly on sale at shop rite) $1.76
Total $10.16 and you’ve fed your family amply. Times five days $50.80 for the week
You can add whatever you want to this basic.
Brick of cheese $14
Bottle ketchup $3
Three orange juice $9
2 Family packs of chicken bottoms $24
Package of hot dogs $10
Fruits and vegetables $50
Total $160.80
Without shabbos.
Why is $150 so hard to be true for a family of four children?klugeryidParticipantI didn’t read all posts but I want to jump in a bit
I believe it’s currently against regulations to purchase more than one seat per person, if not outright illegal
This is due to anti terror stuff. I looked into it when trying to purchase two seats for a heavy traveler and that I. What I was told.
As to spending money to avoid a lav, the chafets Chaim brings that halacha ,though I don’t have the sefer near me now to look up the exact source. He is discussing possible loss of your job due to not speaking L”H and he says it’s not allowed because you must give up all you have, to not be over “just like by every lav where you are required to give up all you own to not be over ”To the fellow who didn’t like the lying “parole ” trick
You seem to have forgotten.
We are all out on parole.
Our souls come down for a limited freedom where our every action is watched and we will have to give an accounting for everything.
Is that not parole???klugeryidParticipantJosef
Why would you need to be Dan likaf zechus those who Daven early?
Are they doing something wrong??October 25, 2019 12:24 am at 12:24 am in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1794622klugeryidParticipantUbiq how does that show the power of תשובה ?
If I hit my friend and he is מוחל me I still should מתוודה the next year
But if I only hurt him with words , I shouldn’t. תשובה was done in both casesOctober 23, 2019 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1794327klugeryidParticipantI was not offended
But it was too tempting to pass upOctober 23, 2019 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1794179klugeryidParticipantReb eliezer
Making fun of someone for misspelling wordsOctober 23, 2019 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1794180klugeryidParticipantUbiq
I’m not going anywhere
I came across this
It should work both ways
If the punishment is not indicative of the severity, then it makes no sense to require the more severe punishment just because it’s a worse sin
Obviously the two go together
Thanks for posting the words
It’s too hard to type it on a phoneOctober 23, 2019 12:09 am at 12:09 am in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1794014klugeryidParticipantSee משנה סנהדרין ט-ג
אילו לא היתה סקילה חמורה….
See מפרשים thereklugeryidParticipantTo all
It’s a bit ridiculous
Tell someone, have a great day!!
That’s insensitive! Maybe they are about to go for a chemo treatment and you don’t know about it
Wish them nachas from their children? They have one child off the derech, or a child who died, so now you caused them pain.Ask for a favor? They would need to ask their husband or wife who doesn’t like to do it, now you made שלום בית problem
Every action you do can potentially cause someone grief quite easily.
Turns out New Yorkers, who for so long have been on the receiving end of excoriation for ignoring everyone, are actually the most sensitive people around!!!!
Who knew!!October 11, 2019 12:43 am at 12:43 am in reply to: Trump’s 25% tariff on single malt Scotch #1792312klugeryidParticipantWhy would you drink scotch anyway
Reminds me of the baalay simcha who mix the ends of all their bottles into the “blue label ” bottle and laugh their way through the night, as one expert after the next pronounces it the greatest scotch around!
Drink bourbon!October 10, 2019 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm in reply to: Black suits for brothers of chasson and kallah? #1792291klugeryidParticipantI’m my community the rule is
All males over 11, black suits, 5 buttons, two pleats in pants, single split in jacket, no hems on pants, no pocket on shirt, monochrome tie, tie shoes only, black of course,black socks, no eyeglasses,
If you have one infraction, you can’t eat any hot meat dish at the shmorg.
Two infractions your banned from the Viennaise table.
Three infractions, no main dish, any more and you get sent home.
It’s difficult being religious, but you gotta follow the minhagumOctober 8, 2019 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1791974klugeryidParticipantAnd yet the משנה ברורה In הלכות יוה”כ על ”עבירות שהתוודה עליהם שנה א יכול להתוודה בכל שנה
Writes that on עונאת דברים once your friend forgives you, you should not be מתודהthe next year because it’s totally gone.
So it seems like that’s the one עבירה that can be totally wiped away.
Hard to imagine it’s from to more חמור ones
אה גוט יאר to allklugeryidParticipantYes
Someone named koresh ?klugeryidParticipantI choose deblasio
klugeryidParticipantsam klein
“Here’s a live parable to bring it live for today’s day. How many texting and driving accidents need to C”V occur to wake us up and put our phones away on the side while we are driving to avoid any more accidents C”V?”
according to you , none
hashem decideds who will live and who will die and we need to stop thinking we have any control(i dont really believe that, ii believe hashem demands we take normal precautions … but youve been on that soap box for quite a while here)
klugeryidParticipantSyag
Don’t know where you are looking
But
Costco used to have an amazing quality shirt for $19
I haven’t looked recently so I don’t know if it’s still available
Charles trywhitt, (though I happen not to like their cut, many people love them, and the quality is very good) constantly runs sales for under 30$ just last week they were on sale for 28 or 29 I don’t remember.
Lands end. Amazing shirts, Often has 50% off sales, comes out to below 30September 26, 2019 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789983klugeryidParticipantI like bourbon
I don’t appreciate artBut also you were talking מזיד or so I understood
I am pointing out שוגגklugeryidParticipantThen it’s only one spot for him
klugeryidParticipantthe chafetz chaim in ahavas chesed gives a good guideline
if youd make a financial investment with that given level of risk, you need to accept that level of risk for chesed too
presumably other mitzvos should be the sameSeptember 25, 2019 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789547klugeryidParticipantAnother נמ would be intent
Someone swigs the end of a bottle of bourbon in your house without permission. Does he have to pay for the fact that that bottle was used at every engagement in your family for two generations and your youngest daughter was looking forward for the last ten years to have it finally finished at her upcoming engagement next week?
Or does he have to pay for a half cup of bourbonSeptember 25, 2019 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789534klugeryidParticipantthat has been my point all along that we have been mushpa from western thought”
Of course but that isnt necessarily bad.
No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.
Not necessarily anti torah values but not necessarily in sync with and therefore when we try using our own compass, we may end up far off.
That was the point of my original contention.Additionally it’s important for another reason.
There is intrinsic and there is situational.So for example, stealing has an intrinsic Negative value.
When you steal the only food source of a pauper it’s situational negative value has gone up. The cat of stealing has not intrinsically gotten worse. But In this case you’ve done more with it.
Sort of like a bomb
If you detonate the same bomb in a field it will do very little damage. If you put it into a room of a building it will do a lot of damage. If you detonate it at the supporting pillar of the building, it will collapse the building.
The bomb has not gotten more powerful, you’ve just utilized it differently.So to here. My point is the punishment will indicate the intrinsic severity of the crime.
Situationally of course things will not always fall into even rows.
For example
A fellow needs to be מחלל שבת to save his life. So no the way he decides, might as well eat a ham sandwich that I’ve always hankered(I just love this word) for.
He will get punished for the ham sandwich while getting rewarded for the חילול שבת .
That doesn’t change the fact that shabbos is the more severe crime.klugeryidParticipantI know that guy
He owns hundreds of cars
And once he parks , its there for a week at leastSeptember 25, 2019 8:33 am at 8:33 am in reply to: Why do people comment without actually reading the o p? #1789502klugeryidParticipantAre there any non police cops?
Why can’t the police cops stand in the same place?klugeryidParticipantI’m waiting for an out of Towner to respond
Huh??
What does that mean, two spaces?
And why would you want to do anything?
Just park next to themSeptember 24, 2019 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm in reply to: Why do people comment without actually reading the o p? #1789405klugeryidParticipantTwo points Goldylocks
September 24, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789371klugeryidParticipantMod
Good morning
I actually tried but I usually use my phone and fighting with auto correct just got too muchSeptember 24, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789372klugeryidParticipantIt’s time
Your comment about ubiq ,
Sometimes I feel that way too
However, if my point is legit I should be able to work through it.
It’s frustrating but that’s the game.September 24, 2019 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm in reply to: Why do people comment without actually reading the o p? #1789355klugeryidParticipantRight g h
If that was on purpose well done
If not even betterklugeryidParticipantjust me
remind me where i said thatSeptember 24, 2019 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789245klugeryidParticipantubiq
Without question the “hardship created” by rape is worse than a pen being stolen. Thus although the punishment is less (or even non existent as it would be for stealing < shava peruta) the averia is still much much worse.
thats true in todays society
i dont believe it is the outlook in the torah
its not an issur to feel that way and today it must be taken into account at least in deciding if one wants to do it, but in a pristine torah only world it would not be that way
that has been my point all along
that we have been mushpa from western thoughtSeptember 24, 2019 7:28 am at 7:28 am in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789120klugeryidParticipantAdditionally your case of king David
In both scenarios he stole = both the same
Plus In one he also created hardship to the victim so it’s worse
But if I ask you which is worse breaking your window or killing your sheep, and the monetary value is the same. How would you answer that?
Many people will have different emotions to each
I’d say you need to look at the punishment
If they are the same then the crime is the same
If not then the more severe is worseAdditionally
Rape is mostly an emotional crime. So yes today it’s a total horror.
But who says society always viewed it that way.
And if society would not view it that way, it would not create such emotional pain and it would no longer be so terrible.September 24, 2019 7:27 am at 7:27 am in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1789128klugeryidParticipantBTW there is a fundamental difference between our discussion, vs sedom and also the question asked to rav shurkin ztvk”l there we are talking about someone who (I’m sedom is on purpose trying to do wrong in a “permitted “fashion
His intent is to skirt the law and get away with it and they made that their life’s mission
That’s a despicable person / society.
Here, we both agree is forbidden.
We are arguing on the underpinnings of that isur and it’s ramifications.
I don’t believe that can be called “comparable and or worse than sedom”klugeryidParticipantCT lawyer
Thanks for the effusive verbiage
Not sure what it has to do with anything.
Someone, I don’t remember who, commented that if the homeowner needs to pull out of his driveway to bring a family member to a hospital, those few seconds make a huge difference.
I responded that In the congested area under discussion here (Brooklyn NY) any sane person would call הצלה in such a situation as the trip to the hospital is vastly longer in a private car due to its inability to skirt traffic laws or Push traffic along. Somehow you took this as a personal slight to your honor
And you Responded with this verbiage
(breaks inserted by me for clarity)
You know I livefull time in
small town CT.
We are a town of volunteers. I and my adult children have all been EMT certified and have volunteered in our town’s EMS. The males all belong to the volunteer fire companies. As such our vehicles do have the flashing blue lights and available sirens.
I have made many a hospital run over the years transporting neighbors and family. I would decide whether to call a private service as you suggest, 911 or self transport based on the situation.To which I responded that the op is talking about congested areas and not small town CT…
Now you pop up with more verbiage about lights and tickets and traffic court.
I don’t know where you are headed with all that
But I know this discussion doesn’t concern your Brooklyn residence because those houses of yours are gated. (see above)
So you took umbrage where none was meant and now got upset at me because I called you out on it?
Sorry
I didn’t realize you were so thin skinned.
However again you are totally correct that I should not be hurting people’s feelings ever, certainly not a week to r “h
So I find myself apologising again.Ubiq help me out here
We just went back and forth pretty heavy for over 100 posts without the need to apologize
What am I doing wrong??klugeryidParticipantNo
klugeryidParticipantG H
Enlighten me please
How many hours are there in a few min ?September 23, 2019 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1788994klugeryidParticipant2 Rabbonim said similar things ( more recent one said in sedom they wouldnt ask it, Rabbi Shurkin years ago said that that was a classic sedom question, and was EXACTLY their thought process)
can you tell me what rabbi shurkin said?
even a paraphrase is enough
but a bit moire detail than
rabbi shurkin said thisklugeryidParticipantct lawer
“Additionally, in the congested areas we are talking about, any sane person (except Mr health from the cr) would be calling hatzolah, ”
i think that would exclude small tow ct
i hope you read your contracts a bit more carefullySeptember 23, 2019 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1788971klugeryidParticipantbtw
i made posts that were much more explicit but they were not allowed to go through
hence my posting in hebrew to keep it birmiza
when i said its pesukim i did not mean its a quote
i meant this is what the pesukim tell usSeptember 23, 2019 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm in reply to: Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment? #1788970klugeryidParticipantubiq
sorry they are not pesukim
they are the idea quoted in hebrew
hkbh agreed to avimelech that he had pure intentions
id consider the story of sarah & avimelech or paroh rape like any other
he never bothered to ask her permission
by paroh ותוקח האשה בית פרעה
they forcibly took her. not sure what you are talking about that its not classic rape
stautory rape is where she agrees but the law doesnt allow her agreement to stand due to any amount of extenuating circumstances (age/ inebriation…)
why did dovid hamelech feel that way? because he felt that stealing from a pauper is worse than staeling from a rich man
much as i would assume the same thing
but were i to execute someone based on that id be a murderer
a king can do what he wants
has nothing to do with our topic
the torah lists many types of rape with all sorts of punishments spelled out for each
it strangely leaves one type out
youd say thats because its so horrible its obviously worse than any of the others
id say its because the punishments its not as bad
i brought many proofs that the first step to analyzing the severity of a crime is from its punishmant
i openly agree that there are numerous exceptions, however they require an unimpeachable source.
you keep harping on the quantity of exceptions as if thats meaningful. its not.
you can bring millions of exceptions
as long as they are sourced its not a question on me.
the sifsay chachomim says shechem was killed because he stole dina
look there in the or hachaim
avimelech was pure because as a king he had the right to take any woman he wanted much as he could take any property provided she wasnt married
the proofs are many
but you are not open to the possibility
i used to feel like you but the details didnt add up
but im the closed minded one who does not employ critical thinking
i never got your issue with hitting vs maiming so i have no comment on that
i think ive said all i can so i will leave the floor to you but i thank you for a very enjoyable back and forth(if only yeshiva world would post in a more timely fashion)klugeryidParticipantTrach nisht
Do I hold there is no such thing as private property?
No I don’t hold that way.
The gemarah says there are times when you have no right to claim it’s mine get lost.
It’s called כופים אותו על מידת סדום
You don’t like it, take it up with the gemarah
I was clear I don’t think this case is exactly that
But conceptually such an idea is well grounded in Jewish הלכהklugeryidParticipantPeople.
Please!! Read and understand before you commentThe o p
and I made sure to stress this multiple times in my posts was WHERE THE PERSON IS SITTING IN THE CAR!!!!
( AND FROM THE O P, IT’S PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT THE PERSON IS NOT A MENACE)
So half the posts responding have zero to do with either the op or my Response.Borsar
What exactly was wrong with my response
I didn’t say you are a bad person.
I said the attitude (that you expressed openly in public here) stinks.
No it wasn’t mean to be obnoxious or nasty, it was a statement of objective fact.
That being said it seems I must have hurt you so I ask mechilah.
That also being said, turns out you are commenting on a different issue.
One on which I would never say most of what I wrote here.
For a person to leave their car unattended in a random persons driveway, even with a phone number to reach them is a gross breach of derech eretz probably is gezel and I would never condone such an act, let alone comment negatively on others who don’t allow it.
What’s the difference?
Simple. Anyone who lives in Brooklyn has to deal with traffic anyway. You can never know how long it will take to pull out of your driveway when it’s clear.
I live on an avenue
Sometimes I pull right out
Sometimes it can take two to three lights until I can get out.
To make an issue when the guy is there and ready to move is only selfishness
He could have blocked your driveway while on the street would have caused you the same inconvenience .
But your situation (borsar) is totally different. To block someone else’s property and leave, without permission, it better be a real emergencyklugeryidParticipantGoldilocks
(remember the story? Great name you got going there. Little girl sleeping in a strangers bed after eating their food and breaking their furniture commenting on strangers idling in driveways)
No I’m not Out of touch (though I wish I was)
If your comment is true, then it’s not germane to this topic.klugeryidParticipantYou know, after I sent that last post, I thought over this issue and I almost cried.
Here we are a week before Rosh haShana, we are all looking for merits to add to our account.
Think about it. A yid walks out of his house to walk to Mariv, and there is someone sitting in his car in this persons driveway.
You now have two choices,
1) please leave my property now.
2) ah! Look at that! I just got an easy mitzvah !
I don’t need my driveway now anyway. And here someone is getting a benefit from it. Another merit to take with me into Rosh hashana!
And.we know hashem counts our good thoughts as actions.
So by even thinking that this is what I would do (obviously if you mean it) you can get who knows what kind of boost going into Rosh hashana
And instead we hear people standing on ceremony. It’s mine! Get off!
What a tremendous loss of opportunity!!!klugeryidParticipantBorsar
Nobody said they are more important than you. Relax. I won’t go so far as to call it מידת סדום because it’s not totally זה לא חסר but your attitude stinks.
גומלי חסדים .ever hear of that phrase?
What do you think it means?
To help someone when it’s is zero effort on your part? Let’s remember, this was a very specific question.
The person is in the car ready to move out on a moments notice.
The only reason I can really think of to not let , is exactly what you wrote.
“it’s mine!!! Get lost ”
That’s a stinking attitude.
So what! So you paid for it.
Who gave you the money to pay for it?
Hkb”h . That’s who gave you the money. You really can’t stand the thought of someone else also using your money, again I am only only talking about where it costs you nothing more than asking him to move.
Something you would have to do if he was on the street blocking your driveway as well.
Relax!!!klugeryidParticipantMr trackt nor far zeech,
It’s totally unnecessary.
I live in a very congested area of Brooklyn
People block my driveway all the time. I don’t explode on them. I have even told many on them, it’s OK you can stay, when they start to move because they see me getting out of my house.
It won’t kill you to be nice to others when it’s no skin off your back. -
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