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Rav Chatzkel Levenstein was summonsed to court to give testimony in a certain case. The judge turned to him in the middle of his testimony and said “is it true that you are considered one of the greatest most revered Rabbi’s in your community?” R’ Chatzkel answered yes it is true. The judge said, “but Rabbi, doesn’t your faith teach you to be humble?” yes R’ Chatzkel replied, but I’m under oath, and our faith says we must tell the truth.”
no, I’m saying they should. Someone mentioned they’d like to ask these, and felt even thought they were vague, she knew why she wanted the answers. They also were not in line with “China or paper?”
ames-more potatoes. they tend to soak up salt-I do that sometimes to save a way too salty soup-don’t know if it’ll help with a cholent though but it’s worth a try. (and maybe add a little sugar).
What about these questions about the family for a shidduch: (these are real questions that could be asked about a potential shidduch)
1)Who is their Rov?
2)Did the family eat dinner together during the week or just on shabbos?
3)Did the mother stay home with the children, or did they have a baby sitter growing up?
4)Do they live within their means?
5)What is their attitude towards potential baalei teshuvah?i.e. having them in their home for a meal on shabbos?
6)What is their involvment in the community?
7)Who are their friends?
8)Is the aura in the home more laid back or more intense?
yes some of these are vague, but I know some people who would like to ask these (not me yet my children have a while to go…)
I believe this story happened with the Chidushei HaRim. He was reknowned for his brilliance even at a very young age. A chossid was in his town and visited his home and wanted to see if his reputation was valid. He said to the young boy “I will give you three ruble if you can tell me where Hashem is”. The young boys eyes lit up, and immediately responded “I will give you 6 ruble if you can tell me where Hashem isn’t”.
(I’m not sure if the visitor gave the boy the rubles, but he was surely impressed!)
areivim thanks! that was excellent!
sjs-thanks. sounds easy and delicious! (two requirements i have when cooking for so many people)
There was once a young man walking through the forest. As he continued, he noticed that there was a target on a tree, that was hit perfectly on the bull’s eye with an arrow. He walked a little more and noticed the same thing on several more trees. He said to himself “this is remarkable, I must meet this skilled marksman who hits the bulls eye perfectly each time”. Suddenly, he heard the whoosh of an arrow fly by and landed on the tree right in front of him. But, there was no target on the tree. Moments later he saw the man who shot the arrow, come over to the tree and proceed to paint a red circle perfectly around the arrow. The man got to meet The Skilled Marksman.!
I have a nimshol which is commonly used in the kiruv world regarding doing what makes US feel good as opposed be being machniya ourselves to HKB”H’s will, but I’d love to hear other nimsholim.
R’ Zalman, as you can tell I have never learned gemorra nor do I wish to, and the back and forth of this, is just not that exciting for me.
Just be a mentch–since he’s going to walk in first, I imagine most bochurim wouldn’t expect the girl to open the door for him. This is just the way it is. No women’s lib no chivalry, no going against shulchan oruch or halacha……if she does end up opening the door first, so what. (I think it’s less likely to happen).Then he’ll go in first and they’ll continue. I hope this was sufficient, because if it wasn’t I honestly don’t know what else to say other then Shalom Al Yisroel, and may all those in klal yisroel who are looking for they zivug find it b’karov and build a bayis ne’eman biyisroel no matter who opened the door!!!!
teen-no one can make a person believe in anything, or be more religious if they don’t want to. They can plead, and coax, and threaten, and teach and beg etc. but ultimately no one can make you do or believe what you don’t want to.
Parents have a deep desire to see their children succeed, and ultimately go to greater places than they reached. That is the underlying ultimate desire of balanced parenting. Not all parents know how to implement that feeling with their children. Some come across in a way that will push the child away.
I hope you will find someone in your life that will help get you to the places your neshama wants you to go. You just have to want it and it may take a lot of time.
To doubly clarify what R’ Bogen posted (I’m assuming a male title) the key adjective here is alluring.
So, don’t wear alluring clothes/makeup on a date. Do be nice looking, clean, put together, and tznius–that is dignified as all Bnos Yisroel should be.
yes R’ Zalman side by side, but usually the bochur is entering first.
I don’t feel qualified to continue on this point any further. Cyclical arguing gives me brain cramps.
All points well taken-just everyone please continue to be a mentch and follow the shulchan oruch and we’ll all be in great shape!
R’ Zalman, I guess it’s the “weird” thing. If the bochur is by default reaching the door first it would just be weird for him to wait for her to open the door for him. No chivalry or mentchlechkeit issue.
Where I live there is a massive tznius problem–(i’m referring to the not yet observant), so I have my work cut out for me. But unfortunately when I come and visit the predominantly frum cities for a chasuna etc., it hurts to see our girls not take pride in tznius. I don’t necessarily fault them for it, just the metzius of yeridas ha’doros. It should be taken very seriously, because there is a problem, (as you pointed out) and it should be taught as a subject in and of itself, which I believe is something that is taking place in NY girls BY schools right now.
ames;asdfghjkl-glad you enjoyed…wish I knew who said it originally
R’ Zalman–I know girls, myself included in my dating years, that it was uncomfortable to be watched while getting into a car–no issues of not dressing tzniusdik–just a sensitivity, and I appreciated when the bochur wouldn’t stand there and wait while i got in. Not every tzniusdik girl/woman would have this issue. But is wasn’t the issue of lack of tznius just a sensitivity.
As far as hotel door-she should not go in first. He can go in first, and still hold open the door behind himself (don’t need any special degrees or sugyas to figure it out) so she can come in and he should continue and all laws of shulchan oruch are kept, no chukas hagoyim, no chivalry, just plain and simple mentchlechkeit.
Yes, we as yidden follow the shulchan oruch. But for example, just because the shulchan oruch doesn’t point out “rochel bitcha ha’ketana” how wide your smile should be when greeting guests into your home, we need to also have seichel when it comes to mentchlechkeit. If a bochur is going to delve into each potential mannerism that might be chivalry when with normal seichel and of course a well versed knowledge of shulchan oruch to back him up, he might be left in the hotel by himself.
That was my point and I think many others.
keepentertained-don’t know if this will help with quick 1 week weight loss after that delicious menu you just posted, but here are some ideas:
Eat in moderation
At every meal stop eating before you are full
Eat a lot of fruits and vegies–make these your only snacks
Vigorous excersice at least 30-50 min each day
Good luck
p.s. could give us the purple salad recipe?
I heard a vort on this once….
When a person keeps their hands closed, (meaning refrains from giving tzedakah, chesed, etc.) it’s hard for them to see the individual needs of each person (i.e all the fingers the same length),,,but when he opens his hand, (opens his heart to giving) each finger is a different lenghth then he is able to see each person in need and what type of chesed is required for that individual person.
sjs-can you give us the meat roll recipe? also, is the sauteed onions and peppers just that? thanks
moish-wow-You’re only 16??? and you’re delving into all these introspective questions so intensely now–quite impressive. and yes, I think everyone here will daven for your arichas yomim v’shanim.
R’ Zalman, most girls that dress perfectly tznius have developed a sensitivity, especially if this is the first or second time they are dating, that it would be extremely uncomfortable for the bochur to watch her get in the car.
Most of these girls would not turn down a bochur because he didn’t open the door, they probably would admire his sensitivity to not wanting to make her feel uncomfortable. He can still open the door to the hotel lounge behind him as was hashed out in previous posts down to the actual mechanics of it—-I don’t think it is goyish at all for him to do so as they are entering a building with him in front of her. That is taking it way too far.
(I mean if there are those who are maintaining that it is goyish for him to hold the door open as he enters, still continuing in front of her and she then holds the door open as she proceeds inside so he can continue in front of her—then we have real problems. The alternative would be-he enters the building, she stands outside the building until he gets in and the door closes, and then she proceeds to open the door..etc. please please I hope that no one will say even sarcastically or facetiously that this is the way to do it to avoid chukas hagoyim {i know that might have been an invitation for just that but i just needed to write that})
Third, most wives who admire their husbands who are true bnei torah, and mentchen get great pleasure serving their husbands the way the Rambam has spelled out (obviously the way it would play out in our day). It is something taught to them as kallahs (and hopefully witnessed in their own homes) with great understanding and sensitivity, and is something that wives of b’nei Torah take great pride in.
We are the nurturers and builders of klal yisroel and are grateful for that role, no apologetics-just pride.
In Town—is this a universal understanding that In Town means NY and out of town means everywhere else in the world? If so, if someone lives in Los Angeles and they are going to NY for a chasuna, and someone asks where they’re going they’re supposed to say “I’m flying to a chasuna In Town? Just curious.
Not sure how to re-route this to jeans.
Will Hill-thank you for the clarification. I did my own asking of a Rov meanwhile, and was told that is what the shulchan oruch states as you said if all things are equal
“”To reiterate: If all things are equal, i.e. there is a man and a woman in the river, and you only have the capacity to save one, Shulchan Orach states in black and white to save the man.””
I heard a story that R’ Ephraim Wachsman told over of a great Rov (I can’t remember who and in what time period I imagine a great many years ago) who was indeed in this situation– where he and his son and daughter were in a boat that capsized and the father saw he only had the strengh left to return to shore with one of his children. He explained to his daughter this halacha and she understood and started to cry as she said goodbye to her father and brother. The tears tore through the fathers heart and he said “but I am her father, and I WILL find the strength to bring her back as well”, and he did save both of them. (R’ Wachsman proceeded to parallel the situation to Hashem and Klal Yisroel’s responsibilty to each other etc…..)
So, yes it might be the halacha, but l’maasa, we should ask Hashem to never let us have to make the choice.
The Torah is all true, and the Shulchan Aruch is true,,,
I think the issue that people have with you bringing this up is that you give across the flavor of using this notion of chivalry to throw out basic and decent mentchlechkeit (and I don’t mean holding open the car door etc….). Don’t present yourself in a way that will let others think that way about people who very admiringly like yourself learn and live by the Shulchan Oruch. V’hamaivin yovin.
so to sum this all up, I hope that a lakewood boy coming out of the freezer has already established for himself a solid chavrusa, and would be looking to date a girl. I can’t imagine any bochur wanting to marry a girl who will be his chavrusa–two distinct separate relationships, as they should be.
will hill—I don’t get what you were trying to say regarding a Kohein and Yisroel. The shuls I’ve gone to, the kohein always got priority over a yisroel-hence the order of aliyos, leading the bentching etc…etc.
The premise is that there is a hierarchy regarding performance of mitzvos. So what would be the din if two men were drowning one is a Kohein and one is a Yisroel?
not sure if my other post went through-
Will Hill another question-what if all Jewish men and women in the world were on a boat and it capsized, and there were only sufficient facilities to save all the men-what would you say the shulchan oruch says then?
One more question for you Will Hill:
If all the Jewish men and women (in the world) were on a boat, and it capsized etc. and there were only enough sufficient facilities to save the exact amount of men there were, what would you say then that the shulchan oruch states?
will hill-yes the p’sak is very straight forward. All the conditions that are inherent in reaching that p’sak are not.
And I agree with ujm-we follow the shulchan aruch whether we understand it or not.
Just make sure that you’ve got all angles straight.
Curious to know if you’ll address this which I previously posted-kohein over yisroel? same premise applies–don’t know the answer.
my shadow, I was considering that the second time it happened on the way back from the hotel lounge, but it was freezing and I wanted to be mentchlech and I knew this was the last date. I was don l’kaf zechus though since it wasn’t his car, and he was so nervous as it was.
freezer rule? enlighten me please…although I can extrapolate the true meaning of this I want to be sure….and how long do they have to thaw?
tzippi-excellent question which brings home the point that this issue is not so black and white. I really don’t know the answers to the specific questions that arrise, just the premise of the gemorra-i.e.men are commanded in more mitzvos etc….It could also lead to the question of two men are drowning one is a kohein and one is a yisroel etc…..
I don’t think it’s advisable for anyone to portray it as totally black and white.
One more point. The concept that you bring about a man being saved over a woman is not carried out as black and white as you stated. The essence of the reason is true for the world in the galus we live in, because men are commanded in more mitzvos and therefore have the potential to bring more light into the world that results from doing the mitzva, but the determination of that potential is not to be taken lightly. And I think many who are not well versed in these areas would have a hard time integrated the understanding and overall meaning of the essence of what the mishna/gemorra is saying. Oh, and I just need to know this to answer those not yet observant Jews who come across this concept. I never learned it inside. I just know that the commentaries have said it’s not so poshut.
On another note, the light that will come to the world after moshiachs arrival, from that which the woman is supposed to bring down will be on a higher level then in galus, which is allegorically referred to as the sun and moon giving light equally in that time.
Just bringing this for the sake of those that might be appalled because of their misunderstandings. No underlying apologies or women’s lib flavor at all.
R’ Joseph-yasher koach-I admire when people get me to re-think a point. I guess I have an issue with the term chivalry.
CHIVALRY
1: mounted men-at-arms
2archaic a: martial valor b: knightly skill
3: gallant or distinguished gentlemen
4: the system, spirit, or customs of medieval knighthood
5: the qualities of the ideal knight :
To be gentleman like doesn’t mean to be davka like a gentile. If it was considered chivalrous in the goyishe velt for the husband to take out the garbage, then the notion of mentchlichkeit would be out the window?
I think it would be fine for her to open the door to the building if she got there first, but that probably wouldn’t happen because he’s walking in front of her anyway. So, he opens the door, walks in first while holding the door open behind himself and she proceeds. Everyone in still a mentch!
If they reached the drivers side first, I think it would just be strange for her to open the door to the car that he’s driving. That would just be weird. For him to be expected to go to the other side of the car and open it I think would also be strange, and therefore fit in the category of chivalry.
If the lines of mentchlechkeit get blurred and it becomes a concern of chukas hagoyim in other normal mentchlech areas of life, then there is a problem.
(I think tzippi addressed that point wisely and concisely in her post)
moish-definitely wouldn’t call you secular. Sorry if I came across that way. My point was, even people that never had the privilege of a Torah education are open to the idea of growth when they realize that it’s not all or none. Then they are willing to give self improvement a try.
You said you don’t know what you would call yourself- how does REAL sound?
There is a prevalent misunderstanding among secular Jews, that in order to be “observant”, it’s ALL or NONE. When they learn that is not accurate, it opens the doors to the concept of climbing up the ladder of growth. Sometimes the rungs are easier to reach than others, but it’s which way you’re going on the ladder that counts in Hashems eyes.
The feeling called guilt that has been implanted in human nature, is healthy when used properly. The yetzer hara is a master when it comes to using guilt to convince us that we “just can’t move forward if we can’t do it completely”. Healthy guilt comes in well allocated doses which move us to work on changing for the better. Our challenge is to be in tune with ourselves to see whether the guilt will propel us in the right direction, and then act on it.
sjs-keep us updated on how you liked the books!
Pearl -that’s an impressive menu-can you share the string beans recipe?
mosherose-sorry you had to experience that, but I laughed so hard that it brought on tears.
ujm-I assume a bochur would consider it quite odd for the girl on the date to go over to driver’s side door and open the car door for him. And it would surely throw him off if she would say “could I please have the keys to the car so I can open the door for you”……
Women are quite capable of opening the car door, and I would agree that it is probably stemming from chukas ha’goyim, but I don’t think the bochur is b’sheeta opening the car door because he wants to be like his neighbor the gentile. He’s just trying to be a mentch–and yes, no need for him to watch her get in etc…..
I had no problem in my dating years with the bochur not opening the car door for me. It was just frustrating when he would forget to unlock the door and I’d have to knock on the window. (nope-didn’t marry that one, but for other glaring reasons)(I guess part of this post can go in another thread too.)
charlie brown-you’re welcome.
A bochur on a date can hold open the door and still be walking in front of the girl, because he entered first (I do hope that this doesn’t need play by play explanation). He can also open the car door and let her close it herself if he doesn’t feel comfortable standing there as she gets in. I think we are all wise enough to figure out how to be menschlech, and in the bounds of halacha at the same time.
“”I think there are certain articles of clothing that make a statement – wearing a kippah MAKES a statement. Wearing a streimel MAKES a statement. What does wearing a pair of jeans state?””
Wearing a pair of jeans makes the statement: “I’m comfortable wearing a pair of jeans”.
Some people are (comfortable with that), and some aren’t, and the various reasons are personal.
Just because a person is not trying actively to make a statement doesn’t mean that a statement won’t be made. Human nature is such that people will perceive what is being worn as a statement for better or for worse.
feivel very well said—as i mentioned in a earlier post Judaism is the only religion on record that believes people besides Jews can merit a place in Olam Haba…a lot of depth there.
I wasn’t saying it to teen- I thought you were asking. my responses to teen were of a very different nature, as was needed.
The ones looking down at someone just for wearing jeans, is in the category of being judgemental, which all humans are. Being judgmental is part of our instinct and is healthy and good when used properly. If the person judging will act in a way that is not within Torah guidelines, then they need to reevaluate their premise in judging. If the judgement leads them to a place where they won’t ask that person for fashion advice, then the jeans wearer should just chill out, and not feel like every person that doesn’t wear jeans is looking down on them.
I do maintain though that choosing to wear jeans, even if just for comfort, will put a person in a certain segment of society, where clothing choice does categorize who we want to be seen as. Same with a person who will ONLY wear a white shirt and black pants. They want to be seen a certain way.
if a person believes in “Moshe Emes v’Soraso Emes” where is there room for doubt?
As far as proving it’s total truth beyond a reasonable doubt, it is possible-read “Beyong a Reasonable Doubt” as I have been suggesting in past posts, as well as “Permission to Receive” by Lawrence Kellemen–awesome reads, and gives a great deal of peace of mind when one comes to the point of realizing that Hashem and His Torah are absolutes in Truth. I deal all the time with people who aren’t interested in the dogma, as I’m sure most who are seeking this answer aren’t, but it’s worth your time to read these as they deal with the intellect.
sjs-I assume you meant the people in the situation one walks into look down- a situation in and of itself can not look down at another person.
If a person is wearing something, it was only that person’s choice to wear that which they put on. Therefore, they are choosing a look. No one chooses to be looked down upon. A police officer wearing a uniform will be judged as being a police officer and can’t get offended if people judge him as being one when he is wearing a uniform.
Where I live, in the summer, almost none of the women are wearing what I am, and yes we are both hot. But just because they don’t understand tznius (yet) doesn’t mean they will not choose to look down on me. They might look down on me but so what. I’m confident in my choice of clothing for various reasons, and am not in the least bit worried at being looked down upon.
I prefer not being controversial, and much prefer being straight, and emesdik. That being said, if a person is going to wear jeans, that is a choice. They should just be cognizant of the places they wear them, and see if that is in congruance with the standards of their surroundings. I.e. it wouldn’t be suggested to wear jeans to a black tie event….and I think those of us thinking people can extrapolate further.
“please PROVE the Torah. As far as I know, you can logically talk about why the Torah is right, but there is no real way to prove it beyond any doubt. “
sjs–are you asking to prove that the Torah was given to us by Hashem?
teen- one more short point. You don’t need to waste your time comparing both sides—you’re a yid and should first spend you mental energies, brainpower, and G-d given intelligence to plumb the depths and truth of Torah first to find what you’re looking for. After you’ve given that an honest amount of time (probably many months of reading and researching and connecting to a non- judgemental Torah true teacher), then you will be at a place of continued honest intellectual assesment.
teen, I guess you didn’t have a chance to read back on one of my posts-I copied part of if for you.
No, the Torah does not state specifically that one should not wear jeans, neither does the gemorra. The Torah also does not state specifically for example, what kind of linen one should put on their guest’s bed, or how big of a smile one needs when being mevaker choleh. The point being that the Torah was given to people with sechel, the Torah is our guide and we need to make choices accordingly.
What a person wears is a message to themselves and others of who they want to be seen as. A person wearing a sailors uniform will be assumed to be a sailor. Whether we like it or not what we wear will be seen by others, and depending on how you feel about that clothing, that is the choice that the person will make. It doesn’t define your essence, it just defines on how you want to be seen.
teen- I did explain why [albeit concisely since the mods are not interested in printed a book here]you should believe in Judaism–it could be it will take time for your mind to process, but you have to want it in order for any explanation to work. You’re in an amazing asking mode now, and if you want true extensive answers the CR is not the place you’re going to get it. You’ll get our attention and respect, but not the full answers you deserve.
A point I’d like to make about Christianity vs. Judaism : Chr. doctrine states that unless you believe in everything they believe in-then you’re doomed to hell. Judaism is the only religion on the planet (1 of about 15,000) that believes that you can be even a non-Jew and still receive a portion in the world to come. What this ultimately is saying, and it takes a very mature mind to integrate the depth of this thinking, is that G-d is the One that gave us everything we believe in, and we are not haughty enough to claim our religion as man made and extending a belief system as the Christians have.
One last very important point—for a person to say that they are (not) willing to believe in something, they have to have honestly, and extensively learned that which they are (not) willing to believe. Since you are a yid, you owe it to yourself to do that learning of Judaism and research, understand it maturely and then discuss those ideas with a competent Torah teacher for you to honestly come to peace of mind. You sound like an honest person who is sincerely looking for the truth. Don’t sell yourself short.
In order for this to be a truly effective exchange of ideas it will be worth your while to read the following:
1)Permission to Believe: by Lawrence Kellemen
2)Beyond a Reasonable Doubt: feldheim publishers
3)If You Were G-d: by Aryeh Kaplan
4)The Torah Lifestyle: by B Shaffier
…….if you really want to know.