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Additionally, (and it shouldn’t be that it has to come to this, as the RaMBa”M is extremely clear in his loshon that once a person passes away they cannot be moshiach, including after a techiya,) the Rebbe ZY”A in his works about moshiach never implies that moshiach will be from those that passed away.
Furthermore, the Rebbe gave an entire farbrengen from mem hei about the job of a nosi once moshiach comes, which would seem to imply that once the nosi passes away, like any other tzadik they are not in the running for being moshiach.
Again, and I’ve said it before on this thread, if you would like ideas about how to keep the Rebbe ZY”A relevant in your life without twisting halacha and manipulating yourself, I would be more than happy to farbreng with you privately.
Whatsaktome,
The thing is you’re missing the limud and context behind the statement that the “(previous) Rebbe will lead us out of exile”. If you look at the source of that statement, in Bosi L’gani yud alef, the Rebbe put a footnote corresponding to that statement to explain what was meant by it. I assume you haven’t learned it seeing as you are learning out the wrong context for the statement.The context the Rebbe provides for the statement in the footnote is to perek yud tes (if I’m remembering correctly) of Bamidbor Rabba, and to the end of Sefer Chassidim, in both those places there’s expressed a similar idea: In Vayikra Rabba, it details a conversation between HKB”H and Moshe Rabbeinu, in which HKB”H responds to Moshe Rabbeinu’s request to go into eretz Yisroel:
אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה בְּאֵיזֶה פָּנִים אַתָּה מְבַקֵּשׁ לִכָּנֵס לָאָרֶץ, מָשָׁל לְרוֹעֶה שֶׁיָּצָא לִרְעוֹת צֹאנוֹ שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ וְנִשְׁבֵּית הַצֹּאן, בִּקֵּשׁ הָרוֹעֶה לִכָּנֵס לַפַּלְטֵרִין שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ, אָמַר לוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ אִם אַתְּ נִכְנַס עַכְשָׁו מַה יֹּאמְרוּ הַבְּרִיּוֹת שֶׁאַתָּה הִשְׁבֵּיתָ הַצֹּאן. אַף כָּאן אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה, שִׁבְחֲךָ הוּא שֶׁהוֹצֵאתָ שִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא וּקְבַרְתָּם בַּמִּדְבָּר, וְאַתְּ מַכְנִיס דּוֹר אַחֵר, עַכְשָׁיו יֹאמְרוּ אֵין לְדוֹר הַמִּדְבָּר חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, אֶלָּא תְּהֵא בְּצִדָּן וְתָבוֹא עִמָּהֶן, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים לג, כא): וַיֵּתֵא רָאשֵׁי עָם צִדְקַת ה’ עָשָׂה, לְכָךְ כְּתִיב (במדבר כ, יב): לֹא תָבִיאוּ אֶת הַקָּהָל הַזֶּה, אֶלָּא שֶׁיָּצָא עִמָּךְ.
“You will not bring this group (into the land which I have given you), rather it will enter with you.” That when moshiach comes (may it be speedily), Moshe Rabbeinu will lead his generation to greet moshiach (this is also the concept found at the end of Sefer HaChassidim). That does NOT imply that Moshe Rabbeinu will be moshiach, rather that he will help his generation meet moshiach and that they will be redeemed in his merit. That is what the Rebbe is saying with the statement you quoted, and THAT is why the Rebbe brings a minority opinion about techiya before moshiach, to explain how possibly the Rebbe RaYa”TZ ZY”A could lead his generation to greet moshiach.
This is also why the Rebbe ZY”A was constantly ADAMANT that people learn his footnotes! Because without doing so one can come to a completely mistaken understanding of the text as you did above.
If you read my other posts you’ll find I’m no PR man. MANY certain fools, does that suit you better? My point was simply that these ideas represent a misunderstanding at best, and a deliberate misrepresentation at worst, of the Rebbe’s Torah and the concepts found in the Rebbe’s Chassidus. I make no claims to any estimates as to the number of these fools in Chabad.
Manomar, I’m sure you’re aware that my point was to bring out that just as the false ideas taken out of those works were not found in the text what-so-ever, so too here the ideas that certain fools in Chabad espouse are not found in the Rebbe’s Torah.
RSo,
You picked up on something very complicated that if you want to PM me I would be happy to discuss at length on a theoretical level, that being nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu being the neshama klalis. It’s one of my favorite topics which I’ve put significant time and research into. But b’kitzur you are right by saying that nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu is nispashet to all neshamos of klal yisroel, but wrong (to my humble knowledge) in your implication that that means it also can’t be mislabesh in one person. Again this is not the place to go into the discussion.Yeshivish Rockstar,
Like I said above, when the RaMBa”M ZY”A released Moreh Nevuchim a great number of sefardim read into his work and came out believing that the chiyuv of mitzvas tefilin was only to be fulfilled in one’s mind as it was an allegorical mitzvah, thus they stopped putting on tefilin. Does that make the RaMBa”M a “mixed bag” or at some point do you simply acknowledge that people reading into Torah what they will does not speak as to the legitimacy of the source.The same can be said of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai with the Zohar, which was quite literally the source of Shabsi Tzvi’s kefira, does that make Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai a “mixed bag” CH”V because (albeit indirectly) he caused CH”V CH”V (I do NOT believe this, just making a point) many yidden to believe in kefira?
RSo,
No that is not how I understand it. I understand it as meaning that the tzadik doesn’t leave this world, rather he is found, in addition, in the other three worlds. That’s how the Alter Rebbe understands it and explains it in Tanya, igeres hakodesh, epistle 27, and I rely on his kabbalistic knowledge. I don’t presume to have any understanding of any of these kabbalistic inyanim of my own (that would be highly intellectually dishonest and irresponsible, as I do not claim to have the ability to reach an understanding of these inyanim on my own.) Rather I rely on the Rebbeim to guide me in my understanding of it.However you asked where the source of the idea comes from, and I provided the source.
Not sure if my post didn’t go through, or if it’s simply stuck in the (I’m sure arduous) editing process (keep up the good work mods).
Grey Matter,
Not sure what your last post is responding to. I don’t think I said anything that was directed toward your “question”.Furthermore, I’m not entirely sure I understand your posing of that question on this particular forum. it doesn’t seem to relate to the conversation above unless you are somehow trying to posit that the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A was CH”V considered by “virtually all gedolim” to have “gone off”.
Might be a good idea to start a second thread with your question as the topic, I’d be happy to participate then and discuss it with you.
Grey Matter,
I am unclear as to exactly what you are responding to in your last post. I don’t seem to have said anything further about the “question” that you raised.Frankly, I’m actually not entirely sure what shaychus your question has to do with this thread in particular, unless you are suggesting that “virtually all gedolim” held that the Rebbe “went off” CH”V. If you’re not suggesting that, as I don’t believe you are, then maybe your question would be better posted on a separate thread dedicated specifically to that topic in which I would happily participate.
The source you’re looking for is Zohar Chelek 3 Daf ayin alef, amud beis.
“Tzadikim are found more in all worlds after their passing, as during their life they are only found in one world, whereas after their passing they are found in all the worlds.”
And further toward the end of the daf:
“Tzadikim in their life defend the world, and even more so after their passing”
“Without the prayers of Tzadikim the world wouldn’t be able to stand for even one moment.”
@grass,
My Rebbe taught me that when one knows alef they should teach alef. That would seem to imply that when one doesn’t know beis they shouldn’t be teaching beis. Respectfully, your comments above are like someone who doesn’t know alef trying to say they know tuf.Additionally @grass,
Isn’t the tayna you bring above more a tayna against all chassidim of all kreyzen? Given that all chassidim base their Judaism on the word of “one person” as you say? How is Chabad different in this than Breslev or any other chassidishe kreyz?Also technically speaking, in Chabad we base our shitos in Judaism on the beliefs of 9 people, given the Baal Shem Tov, the Magid, and all the Rabbeim.
Grey Matter,
Just want to make sure that you’re aware, that by your definition we (am yisroel) wouldn’t have been zoche to the works of: The RaMBaM, the Baal Shem Tov, the Magid of Mezritch, Rebbe Nachman, the Alter Rebbe, the RaMChaL, v’chu v’chu, all of whom were opposed and called “off” by the “gedolim” of their day.Also as someone who has learned the Torah of the Rebbe extensively, I can confidently say that I’ve never come across a statement like “I am moshiach” CH”V. Could I see how someone, with a krume daas, could come in and twist the words of the Rebbe to make it seem like he was saying that, yes. I am sure someone with bad intentions could twist any Torah R”L and make it fit their desires, as Shabsi Tzvi did with the heilige Zohar.
RSO,
If you would kindly take the time to read the posts above, you would see that the statement “tzadikim run the world” does not mean what you’re saying it means. “Tzadikim running the world” simply means that through their influence of the Jewish people they, in turn, influence how Hashem chooses to relate to the world and which hashpaos Hashem chooses to give the world. That in no way implies that they can simply “make Moshiach come” without the participation of the Jewish people. Please review what people are positing the statement means above before starting a conversation that will simply turn itself around in circles over and over.Grass,
Do you also blame the RaMBa”M for the fact that many sefaradim of his time learned his Moreh Nevuchim and took it to mean that the RaMBa”M CH”V held that certain mitzvos, like mitzvas tefilin, were only allegorical and not to be taken literally and put into practice?Or could it be that it is that those unfortunate individuals are at fault for not coming to the proper understanding of the text?
Let me start with the source I am most familiar with, namely, Tanya, from Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R HaZoken ZY”A.
In Perek 2 it states: “for the nuture and life-force of the nefesh, ruach, and neshamah of the amei haaretz are drawn from the nefesh, ruach, and neshamah of the righteous and the sages, the “heads” of Israel in their generation.” “This explains the comment of our Sages on the verse, “And cleave unto Him (which the sages explain in ketuvos 111b means, “He who cleaves unto a Torah scholar is deemed by the Torah to have mamesh become attached to the Shechinah”
Thus by following this reasoning, one could reason that if tzadikim are indeed where the “nurture” and “life-force” of the general Jewish population are drawn from, and that how the Jewish people behave effects how Hashem chooses to interact with the world (as I brought b’loshon Nefesh HaChaim in an earlier post), then one can see that tzadikim directing the Jewish people and connecting them to Hashem effects how Hashem chooses to run the world. Which is what I was claiming above, and I believe how Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok interpreted the quote from his Rebbe ZY”A. Thus, it would follow that Rebbeim do indeed have an effect on this world, which was the entire intention of my original post to come and prove.
Furthermore, and this is more shakey as I do not have the sefer in front of me, nor do I have access to the sefer at this moment: but as I recall, it quotes in Kedushas Noam Elimelech (not to be confused with stam Noam Elimelech. This sefer has an added section of Rebbeim from the next generation giving praises about the Baal Noam Elimelech ZY”A.), from Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R from Belz ZY”A (could be wrong in this attribution of the quote, but the quote exists there) stating, “all the teshuva which is done in this world is done with the strength of the Rebbe Rebbe Elimelech, for it has not passed one hundred years since his passing.” V’Chu V’Chu.
Furthermore, there’s simply this quote from Moed Katan 16b:
אמר אלהי ישראל לי דבר צור ישראל מושל באדם צדיק מושל יראת אלהים מאי קאמר א”ר אבהו ה”ק אמר אלהי ישראל לי דבר צור ישראל אני מושל באדם מי מושל בי צדיק שאני גוזר גזרה ומבטלהGrey Matter,
The quote you listed above isn’t my quote or my words, but rather the words of Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok SHLIT”A, quoting the words of his Rebbe, HaRebbi of Dzhikov ZY”A. If you believe they are making a “grave mistake” then you pretty much believe all chassidim and all Rebbeim, of all courts, are making a “grave mistake”.Either that, or you failed to understand the quote in the correct way, or that you simply haven’t learned enough. I’ll let you be the judge of what you feel is a more likely scenario. No hard feelings, I’m glad we were able to have a civil discourse B”H. You seem like a very good natured and kind person, and I thank Hashem for the opportunity to have had this conversation with you.
Yeshivish Rockstar, I have no idea as to the exact demographics that exist within Lubavitch. I correct people when the conversation comes up, and make my opinion and beliefs known to anyone I have influence over in my life. Other than that, however, there’s not that much more I can do, unfortunately. It certainly disturbs me when I hear views espoused that are contrary to Yiddishkeit.
I definitely am not part of Chabad for the politics, or for the clear shtus d’leumas zeh that messianism represents. I am here because I believe limud chassidus Chabad provides a huge opportunity to direct my Yiddishkeit, and to develop a deep understanding of G-dliness. So I try to work on my own understanding, and whenever I can, develop and spread my influence in Lubavitch. IY”H there are others who have the same understanding who are working to do the same.
Grey Matter,
I suspect you neglected to read what both Yeshivish Rockstar, and I posted above.
The Tzadik has no power that is his own, all his strength is from his connection to Hashem. When a person asks a tzadik for a bracha, they aren’t asking the tzadik to fulfill their bracha, they are asking the tzadik to intercede on their behalf with Hashem, because they admit that the tzadik has a closer connection with Hashem.
How can this be? It’s explained in the works of Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R HaRaSHa”B, that every Jew has the ability, in pontetia, to reveal the essence of their soul, which is from the essential depths of G-dliness (Atmus u’Mehus B”H, as it says in kisvei HaAri Z”L, that the essence of the yechida of a Jewish neshama is “Nitzutz haBorei b’nitzutz HaNivra”) through the avodah of Torah and Mitzvos.
Practically, however, the only individuals who are successful in reaching this madreiga in avoda are tzadikim. And being that tzadikim have revealed their inner connectedness with Hashem (which all Jews share in potential), we rely on them to direct us in how to serve Hashem, and ask them for brachos in certain situations. Knowing full well, however, that the will of the tzadik is the will of Hashem, and that the tzadik is powerless to help by himself, and that it is Hashem who sends the yeshua.
And how do we know this? Because the tzadik after giving one a bracha, reminds one that the yeshua will come from Hashem, and that one must increase in their Torah and Mitzvos in order to be worthy of receiving such a hashpa, which normally they wouldn’t have been shaych to.
That’s a huge difference between the case here, and the case in the beginning of hilchos avoda zara. Here it is clear that Hashem sends the yeshua, and the tzadik himself even reminds the person, either in their Toros, or in the words of their bracha itself, that everything comes from HASHEM. By the beginning of hilchos avoda zara, the RaMBaM is describing a case where people were confused and very much believed that Hashem gave reshus to the stars to give hashpa separately and INDEPENDANTLY. Which would be kefira and A”Z.
However, to say that Hashem runs the world by using certain stars as an agent to give over a certain hashpa, is no different than saying that Hashem is mazon es hakol, by allowing us to slaughter kosher animals and eat them, and thus to derive life force and sustenance from them.
Does that mean that the cow was a separate reshus and it, separately and independently gives us life force and sustenance CH”V? NO! It means that the way that Hashem chose to create the world is by being mazon us through us eating gashmius food and that that cow was what Hashem determined would be the shliach so to speak, through which we’d derive the sustenance that Hashem intended for us in the first place.
Grey Matter,
I think the problem here is that you are assuming that Yeshivish Rockstar and I believe that tzadikim have power separate from Hashem’s power, which would be clear and utter kefira. That is not at all what we are saying. We are saying that tzadikim, like melachim, are connected to Hashem constantly, and therefore have access, (in the loshon used by Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R from Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok “are given the kochos MIN HASHOMAYIM”) to some of Hashem’s power so to speak.There is no power other than Hashem, there is no existence other than Hashem, there is nothing but HASHEM. EIn Od Milvado. Leis asar panuy miney v’chu…
But not recognizing that Hashem gives access to His power leads R”L to the same error that Acher made at the end of meseches Chagigah, where he sees that Hashem gave metattron the reshus to sit while transcribing the merits of the Jewish people in the Devine Presence, and thinks that CH”V there are two reshuios.
And Yeshivish Rockstar, it’s my personal policy that I don’t answer for things ANA”SH say or do, if I felt I had to do so, it’d be all I’d be able to spend my time doing. Both things you mention above creep me out, and make me uncomfortable also. I don’t agree with them whatsoever.
When a chosid writes to the Rebbe as they are supposed to, they make it clear with the heading of their pidyon (ana l’orer rachamim rabim min hashomayim avur___ ben____), and in the body of their text, that they are not asking the Rebbe to give them a brocha and fulfill that brocha (something that would be impossible for the Rebbe to do, as there is no power other than Hashem) but rather that the Rebbe will give a brocha that HASHEM will fulfill IY”H. If someone is doing something other than that, they should be immediately corrected!
As to why people ask their Rebbeim for brachos, this is something that I’m sure any chosid, of any chassidus could answer better than I. It would require writing an entire other explanation for which I have neither the time, nor the patience. One can rely on the past 300 years of Jewish history to be assured that it is a kosher and accepted practice, given one does it in the right way.
Yeshivish Rockstar, I really like you.
But here what you’re saying isn’t correct. The belief that a tzadik has power in this world is not just a Chabad concept, but rather a concept in general Chassidus…I quote from the Parshas Naso edition (5779) of “Di Yiddishe Tzeit” a Satmar newspaper, from an interview with Kavod Kadushas ADMO”R from Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, in which he quotes his teacher, HaRebbe Hakadosh Rebbi Yehuda Horowitz ZT”L of Dzhikov:
“The Rebbe Shlit”a explained, That he would hear often from him (HaRebbe of Dzhikov), that for tzadikim the strength is given from Shomayim to run the world how they desire it to be run, they hold the world in their hands….” It continues with a story about the Tzemach Tzadik (not to be confused with the Tzemach Tzedek) which serves to show how, and I quote, “that the Tzemach Tzadik runs the entire world with his holy hands…”
Are both the ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok and HaRebbe Hakadosh of Dzhikov both espousing “pure avodah zarah” also? Or could it be you don’t have the cornerstone on Torah truth?
And before you claim that this is only talking about a Tzadik before they are nistalek, I’ll save myself the trouble of writing a rebuttal: The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A wrote this about the Previous Rebbe N”E after his histalkus.
Hashem gives certain influences and energies to the world based on how Bnei Yisroel act, (this is described in in Nefesh HaChaim from Rebbi Chaim Vitebsker ZTZ”AL as how “pure” (tatztzuchei haOr) the light Hashem gives to the world is) a Tzadik directs and effects how Bnei Yisroel act (and even more so, can be described as something of a microcosom of Bnei Yisroel themselves) and therefore, how the Tzadik acts affects how Hashem chooses to relate to this world. Obviously this is always in a way that is like an ax in the hand of the cutter. AKA that the Tzadik is only a tool of Hashem.
Hi,
I’ve been lurking on these different Chabad threads, and watching with horror for some time now. And as much as I try to not mix in, I cant hold myself back any longer. I’m a Lubavitcher, and I really believe in the derech and limud the Rebbe ZY”A laid out for us.But people like Defend Chabad are ruining it for the rest of us. This selfish drive to identify the Rebbe as moshiach is not only contrary to the rulings of the RaMBaM in his Hilchos Melachim, but also is contrary to the Rebbe’s kavanna in this entire topic…
The Rebbe wasn’t trying to declare himself moshiach CH”V, he was trying to raise awareness of moshiach, and to hasten his coming with acts of goodness and kindness. This terrorism that has been propagated by a certain sector of Chabad is out of control and it’s time for it to end.
It’s sickening for me to see people take the Rebbe’s words and twist them to fit their own agendas. This foolish claim has never been, nor will ever be the intent or purpose of Chabad.
Defend Chabad, if you want to hear some ideas about how you can keep the Rebbe relevant in your life without starting your own religion, please feel free to PM me.
And no, not every Lubavitcher “thinks the Rebbe is moshiach, but some are just too afraid to say it” that is a laughable claim that I’ve only ever heard from messianists.
Enough of this already. This is ridiculous and out of control. Please do tshuva.
Hey, first post here, just wondering why syag is jumping down CS’s throat for explaining basic chassidus…if I didn’t understand a gemora and someone explained it to me, I wouldn’t attack them and try to make them feel bad because I was ignorant about a certain part of Torah..it’s wonderous to me how, at times in this forum individuals speak about Kabbalah and chassidus as if it’s not as much a part of the Torah as Gemora…maybe it’s time for some of you all to expand your horizons…Gemara isn’t our only source in Yiddishkeit…
Also the medina exists now as a HUGE settlement of Jews…so whether you like it or not it’s a metzius…and therefore the reality has changed since the time of the Frierdige Rebbe…and the Rebbe’s shitta reflects that…
To the comment above which claimed the Rebbe “went against” the previous Rebbeim R”L…that’s not how chassidus CHaBaD works…the current Rebbe can mold the shitta as he is the current leader of chassidus CHaBaD, and is therefore the one currently dealing with the reality of the situation…
Re OP: what does zionism, or anti-Zionism rather, have to do with being chassidish in general…? This always confused me greatly and has always been something of a פלא by me…last time I checked, chassidishkeit b’klal had everything to do with learning, living, and spreading Toras HaChassidus to the entire world, as we see in the known story of the בעש״ט when he went to the chamber of Moshiach and asked אימתי קאתי מר? Moshiach didn’t reply “when you stop Zionism” he replied, “כשהפצת מעינותיך חוצה״….so maybe it’s time to get back to the basics and start focusing on what being a CHASSIDISHE yid means…you don’t have to be a Zionist R”L…but let’s not make a טפל the עיקר and forget why we’re b’davka chassidim in the first place my friend.