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Yes, and no. Yes, and no.
I hate repeating myself. But then again, I am reminded of the story of the Rebbe who taught his talmid the same point over and over and over again 100 times until the talmid finally grasped it on the 100th (or was it 101st?) time.
They never argue about metzius. (Again, I don’t feel most capable of explaining this point in depth.)
“So, when one Tanna disproves the statements of another Tanna, is not the latter Tanna wrong (eilu v’eilu aside)?”
1. There is no reason to put eilu v’eilu aside. 2. Correct, the latter Tanna is not wrong. What the latter Tanna said still stands in a certain manner that Tanna intended it, even if it isn’t paskened for the situation discussed. It’s a deep concept, and I probably am not the one who can explain it well.
“see the dispute regarding where the sun goes at night.”
I must have seen at least a couple of threads around here that more than sufficiently answered that question. I even thought I saw you participate in that conversation.
“But Kasha disagrees with the infallibility of Chazal.”
Do you read before you post? Where have I utilized that term? I already responded to this point to Wolf.
Wolf: I was editing it as you were typing that! 🙂
Wolf,
There are no instances in the Gemorah of Chazal being wrong. Period. It is indisputable that what they say is from a divine source. Period. You cannot dispute the word of Chazal. Period.
As far as the infallibility flap-up, I do point out you have used this term in the past, indeed you brought the term into this very conversation. And the subtle, albeit sometimes not explicitly stated, implication when bringing up the “infallibility” issue, is that your opposing conversationalist is making someone out to be infallible like the pope. That is a lie as I pointed out. That being said, I apologize for ruffling your feathers… err, fur.
I have the same problem with Google Chrome.
“Fair enough. I disagree, but your explanation is logical.”
Disagree with what? That Chazal are closer to the point of infallibility than you or I?
“OK, so why don’t men have women beaten by Beis Din if they refuse to wash their feet?”
Legally perhaps the can still. But practically the cannot. No Beis Din (or spouse) is required to risk imprisonment by the secular authorities to enforce this right.
“Or beat them when they don’t?”
He was never able to “beat them.” Only Beis Din could use a stick against them if all else failed when attempting to force them to carry out their marital duties.
“Besides, there are many dissenting opinions in Chazal – does that mean they are ALL right?”
Yes, every dissenting opinion of Chazal is correct in some form. They are and were never wrong. Period.
“Can one say that culture and societal norms have changed since their times?”
It has degenerated certainly.
“Well, if you’re saying they can never be wrong, then you’re saying they’re infallible, no? If not, please explain what you mean by your statement.”
I’m saying, at minimum, no one since them has the right to dispute them. No one since them has reached as close to the point of infallibility, as Chazal has. I can say that without even attributing infallibility to them.
“I ascribe infallibility to only one Being… and it’s not Chazal.”
Let me guess, you ascribe that to… Benedict?
Who said anything about infallibility? That’s your fig-leaf. They are far closer to infallibility than anyone since. And therefore no one since has any right to dispute them.
And “malochim” was descriptive, not literal. You should have (and perhaps did) known that.
Wolf, aside from the fact the implications of your last comment contradicts what you explicitly said in the preceding comment, you make it sound as if Chazal were ordinary people. They were not. The were malochim. What they said in the Gemorah is simply 100% pure unadulterated Emes and Toras Moshe M’Sinai. There were no “personal feelings” (to use your terminology) on matters involved.
The conversation began with your assumption regarding the average yeshiva bachur — which I strongly maintain is completely incorrect. The average yeshiva bachur, aside from as you acknowledge does not listen to goyishe music, also generally does not know the goyishe musicians and songs. Despite any contact he has with his “not-so-yeshivishe friends” (as you put it.)
Regarding my second point, that is certainly the impression I’ve gotten. You seem at least somewhat dismissive of more contemporary meforshim when you feel you cannot find sources earlier than some artificial time limit (i.e. over 200 years old – but that is just an arbitrary example, I don’t know what your limit is) agreeing with “contemporary” meforshim and/or Daas Torah.
Wolf: Chazal are not wrong. End of discussion; period.
oomis, I said the concept, not the specific example. You seem to feel anything out of conformance with liberal feminist ideology, you cannot fathom stems from Torah hashkofos.
SJS, And like the gemarah/meforshim mention, she was the exception. The conversation is focusing on the norm.
SJS: Those statements you quoted were made by the Gemorah and meforshim.
Rabbi Meisels research on fish worms:
(This material was presented at the recent OU meeting.)
No it isn’t.
Re: Devorah, the Gemarah does say a women cannot be a judge, and Tosfos asks your question. I would need to look up the grounds the Gemarah/Tosfos gives ruling against it.
BTW, I didn’t read any comment from any poster on this thread saying women are “stupid” (as you put it in your question.)
I knew you would take it literally! (Bob, pass the beer.)
J-a-g: Perhaps they should institute literacy tests. (Let me get the popcorn while the Jim Crow fireworks go off. I know some are going to take it literally. BRB.)
I’ve answered it. You simply didn’t like the answer. I’m not going to be any more repetitive.
So what is the percent? 0.00000001??
j-a-g: The Gedolim usually don’t advise who to vote for specifically. (There are some exceptions.) Nevertheless, the man of the house can and should make the decisions for the house – including for elections. I know this concept although steeped in Torah (as previously iterated on this thread) sounds very foreign to someone steeped in the American golus mentality of egalitarianism.
SJS: What percent of the American voting women are you familiar with the reasoning of the their preferences?
J-a-g: Actually I’ve worked in the secular business world ever since graduating. I’m probably more “attached” to the working world than anyone here.
J-a-g: If Gedolei Yisroel issue an edict, whether its regarding an election or anything else, follow it. That’s my point.
Free will does NOT mean you are supposed to do whatever you wish. It means you CAN do it… and then face the music after 120.
SJS – Look back on the thread. I’ve answered it more than once. I haven’t implied the basis of your question.
“Yeesh. Why even bother having an election then?”
Yeesh. Why even bother having Gedolei Yisroel then? (They oughtta strictly stick to halachic issues, eh? We gotta put ’em in their place when they doggone step outta it.)
The average yeshiva bachur does NOT know when the latest LG song is being played. The average yeshiva bachur wouldn’t even know what LG means.
BTW yitayningwut, you seem to ignore all contemporary meforshim and Daas Torah when you say you research the historical sources, as if the Gedolei Yisroel of the past 200 years made things up. (This is the impression I sometimes get from your comments. Please correct if mistaken.)
anon for this, Actually the Egyptians when enslaving us, when they forced Jewish men to do women’s jobs and Jewish women to do men’s jobs, did not give work that the men and women were incompetent for. The men forced to do (women’s) kitchen work and the women forced to do (men’s) work, were given tasks they could complete. Nevertheless it was humiliating that men were doing women’s work and women men’s work.
oomis, I looked up the Torah Temimah that mosherose referred to, and this is what the Torah Temimah (R. Boruch Epstein) wrote: Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah. It is possible thay by using their own minds, they will transgress the Torah. Also in the Tur (Yoreh Deah 246, 15) he wrote: Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught… (Then he describes the minority who are.) The Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) states that that women are lightheaded. And Rashi (Mishna Sotah 20a) says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. (Rashi says if they do learn, it will lead to immorality.) The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. And the Shulchan Aruch follows this approach of Rambam. So I’m afraid your disagreement is with Chazal (the Gemorah) and the meforshim (Rashi, Torah Temimah) and poskim including SA and Tur. (But hey, let me guess the comeback… the Gemorah/Rashi/Shulchan Aruch/etc. no longer apply since time changes? [Maybe the women of 100 years ago were different.] Where have we heard that before…)
Just-a-guy: Even if Jews/Frum Jews vote at greater rates than goyim, frum Jews do NOT gain an advantage from women being permitted to vote. If you eliminate 50% of both Jews and non-Jews voting public, the remaining 50% of Jewish voters still maintain the’re same greater voting percentage against the remaining 50% of non-Jewish voters.
Here is Rav Belsky shlita’s teshuva about worms in fish:
Edit: It might be easier to read the teshuva here:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/06/rav-belskys-tshuva-on-fish-worms.html
(Click on “Fullscreen” to enlarge the view.)
Actually it would help them if they did follow more Torah principles. I certainly have the right to hope more Torah principles are implemented. Even the goyim believe in the Bible (albeit a corrupted version of it, it still has some Jewish standards.)
If no women vote, then frum people don’t lose anything by frum women not voting.
You heard of google? Use it to find plenty of mainstream press news stories of fire departments lowering standards as a result of lawsuits by women and blacks.
You can do your own research. There are enough stories like this to maintain your reading pleasure for the rest of the week.
NYC – FDNY, like I previously mentioned. They’ve lowered the’re standards (for everyone).
They lowered it as a result of the feminist pressure over a decade ago. More recently (past 3 – 4 years) they’ve lowered it as a result of black pressure (the college requirements.)
Many others throughout the nation have succumbed as well.
If you want more information on this subject, do your own research as I have.
charliehall, The exam was previously watered down as a result of alleged so-called “discrimination”.
anon for this, From what I’ve read in the news in the past. It is more common though for them to lower the requirements for everyone, to appease the feminists.
Nevertheless, even today there are only 35 female firefighters in the FDNY, out of 11,600 — or about 0.0025 of the total.
charliehall: Yes, but this is already after the courts at the behest of the women’s lib/feminist movement has already watered down FDNY’s physical requirements, since “it was discriminatory against women.”
Try explaining that to the 250 lb man stuck in a fire when the female firefighter — who made it due to the watered down requirements — comes to rescue him.
Some other fire departments in the U.S. actually have lower standards for women than for men.
“Kasha- the idea that one has a voice comes from the way secular societies such as that in Israel and the U.S. chooses to govern themselves- and that is what we are talking about here- whether women should be allowed to vote in secular society.”
And I was asked MY opinion. My opinion, based on Torah hashkofos and not secular hashkofos on how a secular society (yes, a secular society) should operate, is what I offered.
anon for this, you’re skirting using the terminology that the Egyptians forced women to do men’s jobs (and vice versa.) So it is long established that certain jobs are men’s jobs and certain are women’s jobs.
The thought that one is entitled to a “voice” is erroneous.
anon for this, you sound like you’d make a fine Egyptian slave-master. 🙂
“Its that society makes the collective decision that generally, they don’t have the maturity or intellectual capacity to vote.
So please, share with us why women should not be able to vote?”
Just-a-guy: Like yitayningwut explained earlier on the thread, women don’t share men’s intellectual acumen.
No Wolf. To torture society. That is what feminism is about.
Just-a-guy: Their father or husband should be making the decision.
In Egypt, when we were slaves, they were experts at assigning men to women’s jobs, and women to men’s jobs.
As a form of torture.
Just-a-guy: Their father’s and husband’s can vote.
Why shouldn’t children be allowed to vote?
Wolf: You’re leaving out the negotiations factor.
Ah, so you are going to what I said a number of comments back that “no two employees are the same.”
Bravo.
Just-a-guy: Do you advocate employers be forced to reset all salaries of all current equivalent employees (i.e. same job, experience, etc.) to match each other? And if so, only females to match males, or lower paid males to match their higher paid male colleagues as well?
“If Employer X has two employees, one male and one female, doing the exact same job and with the same experience and qualifications, should the female expect equal pay?”
No, employee pay in the private sector is based on negotiation. You ALWAYS have and always had 2 or 3 or 10 or 20 MALE employees doing the same thing, with the same experience and qualifications, getting different — often vastly different — salaries due to better employee compensation negotiations by one employee over the other. Should we force all companies to pay all employees with the same experience and qualifications the same salary? Should we then lower the higher paid employees or force all companies to pay more to the lower paid ones? Or is this special privilege only to be extended to female employees in comparison to males?
“If a woman wants to be a firefighter and can meet all the qualifications (weight lifting and other performance based things that I don’t know of), should she be chosen after a man who can’t fulfill those requirements?”
Wonderful example! The feminist movement has ensured the watering down of physical requirements of firefighter (and police officers), jobs that exactly require strong physical requirements! Women now have lower standards to become a firefighter than men. Thanks to the feminist movement and the corrupt courts that heard their lawsuits.
I sure hope no one you know gets one of these female firefighters, if G-d forbid there is a fire, to come to rescue them. (Can you imagine a 150 pound female firefighter trying to rescue a 250 pound guy?)