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charliehall, He wasn’t a godol yet in his college youth days.
I cited a very specific Igros Moshe. Please cite a reliable statement from a godol, not conjecture.
Derech HaMelech explained it far better than I. I believe it will answer your question.
The Mishna doesn’t say you should go to college or be a software engineer or become wealthy. You can be a tailor and make a living without college. And have more time for Limud Torah to boot.
anon: I don’t think every Kohein Godol served in that function until he passed away.
charliehall,
No one is born a Godol. What whatever godol did in his youth, prior to his becoming a godol, is not necessarily indicative of something unless he explicitly said it should be used as an example or is a good thing. Do you have any reliably cited quotes from any Chareidi Godol recommending college?
The point I get is what Rav Moshe explicitly wrote in Igros Moshe EH 2:1:
“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”
“If I am not mistaken, then it’s well and good for her to believe that about herself, but it really is nothing more than her personal conjecture.”
Yes, you are mistaken. Not to be acid, but is further demonstration why Chazal said women shouldn’t learn Gemorah. The Gemorah is agreeing with this observation regaring Kimchis. The Gemorah is not wont of needlessly quoting “personal conjecture”.
Even if we assume that is a legit heter, however flimsy, it doesn’t help in a public setting as anyone (who may know who it is and/or how she looks) may come by and hear her.
Every woman, halevay, should be like Kimchis. Kimchis’ “chumra” is endorsed by the Gemorah itself! Everyone is not on the madreiga to be like Kimchis, but certainly everyone should wish (and strive) to be.
PY: The Rema and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah says you are allowed to live off tzedaka in order to learn. (Besides the fact that a Yissoschor-Zevulin relationship is NOT tzedakah anyways — its an equal partnership between the Yisoschor (i.e. Kollel learners) and Zevulin.)
I agree. Wearing pritzus is worse than eating treif. Eating treif you are doing an aveira youself, bein adam l’mokom. Wearing pritzus you are doing an aveira yourself – bein adam l’mokom, and causing untold scores of others to sin – bein adam l’chaveiro.
ChanieE: You sorely missed the point. The Gemorah cited Kimchis specificly as a Tznius lesson to emulate. Even if one finds it difficult to completely emulate Kimchis, to try as close as possible. What reason did you think the Gemorah wrote about Kimchis? To fill space? There isn’t a single unnecessary letter in the entire Gemorah.
And the Gemorah’s point about Kimchis’ children was that you WILL be rewarded for doing these “chumros”. So if you aren’t a Kohen, it’ll be something else. Perhaps you’ll produce 7 Chofetz Chaim’s. 🙂
ChanieE: “Why should we hold Kimchis up as a role model we CAN and WANT to emulate?”
Because the Gemorah [Yoma 47a] does. Her reward was having 7 sons who became the Kohen Godol.
myfriend: Well cried. Your pain is palpable.
apushatayid: No they don’t. I agree with you on this point 100%.
The problem is they still may come in to shop (for their wife and daughters.) And unless the merchant stops that, the issue is unavoidable.
So there are 2 choices essentially. The shop owner can put a sign on the door “Women Only” (sounds more digestable than “No Men Allowed”) and enforce that policy. This would be the preferred alternative, as you seem to agree. The alternative is to have no Kol Isha.
“Not overboard, but set a very high standard that most people cannot (and don’t want) to reach.”
I very much beg to differ. We CAN and WANT to reach her standard.
“Not if they don’t feel they want to do that.”
We should encourage them to want to, if they don’t already.
So was Kimchis a fanatic who went overboard with “chumras”? Or should we encourage future Kimchis?
I’m not sure what lingerie is other than some under garments.
Wolf, whats wrong with under garments?
The question that was asked? No a “frum” merchant should NOT be selling pork or pritzus — even though it may be mutter to feed the pork to your dog or use the pritzus for some benign utility.
Mazal Tov! IY”H by you b’korov (with your parents blessings.)
“How many men walk into (name your frum womens clothing/accesories/nail salon/ store here) in any given week?”
As long as its one per week, per month, or per year, there cannot be any Kol Isha singing at such time.
So (at the very least) we see how beneficial it is to keep [the much maligned today, I should add] so-called “chumras”.
mdd: What’s the Gemorah’s point in discussing Kimchis?
(Also, why did Kimchis merit having 7 Kohanim Gedolim?)
yitayningwut:
Why do you think Gedolei Yisroel shlita across the spectrum — Litvish Gedolim, Chasidish Gedolim, etc. — both in Eretz Yisroel — Rav Elyashev, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, et al — and in America — Rav Schechter, Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Kotler, [you did mention you are a talmid in in BMG…] Rav Solomon, et al — (to name a few of the many) issued a Kol Koreh against certain so-called “frum” concerts?
Do any frum women clothing stores prohibit men from being customers or coming in for whatever reason? I doubt it, so that point it being for women only is inapplicable.
Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost?
Even putting that aside, I don’t think any a frum person can rationally argue in favor of frum stores selling pure pritzus, which is what Wolf’s point would allow.
Wolf: By that argument, you are positing that “frum” clothing stores could sell miniskirts and sleeveless shirts or any pritzus of their desire. Sorry that does not “cut it.”
I again stress (a separate point) that when someone sins in regards to tznius, they are not only going to pay for transgressing the law themselves; they are going to be held responsible in the court of courts for the transgressions of thousands of others (passersby) made by her enabling them to see her in that state of undress. Even for that fleeting moment of seeing her, before quickly turning away from her pritzus state. (Of course if anyone looks any longer than the moment to realize her pritzus, it will cost them in court too.)
4) The question was whether a frum store should be playing goyish women singers (especially during the 3 weeks), not whether the customer can walk in or stay in if it is.
You can make a very good parnassah without college.
Learning full time is NOT only for the top of the top. Ramabam say anyone who WANTS to join Shevet Levi (full time learning) can do so. Sechar Limud Talmud Torah is received for the EFFORT, not the results.
If a person is working full time, also, any minute that is wasted that he should be working, and anytime he is not working to full capacity is geneivah. You should also then personally believe that all EMPLOYERS should have time cards and capacity tests, and those who don’t live up to their responsibilities or required knowledge should get fired, based on your comment.
Its difficult to imagine a parent not wanting to support their own sons Limud Torah! We know how great it is to support any Limud Torah, al achas kama vkama ones own flesh and blood.
If by college you mean that he wakes up at 5:30 am and goes to college then and doesent finish college till 11:00 pm then the parents should let him go to college. If he would be one of these college fakers that just sits and says they are in college yet they are just busy on their cell phones the whole day and just go there for socializing purposes then he should go get a Torah education.
I have no problem with people who can’t learn so they want to go to college, but let them do it seriously! And not waste peoples tuition.
College clearly detracts from Limud Torah and corrupts ones mind. Rav Moshe wrote in Igros Moshe EH 2:1:
“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”
I think selling pritzus clothing is even worse than selling pork. By selling pork, the merchant is enabling one person to sin; by selling pritzus clothing to even one person, the merchant is potentially causing thousands of people to sin — the wearer and all the men who see her.
lesschums: They pay taxes and are entitled to receive a benefit for that.
apy: You are absolutely incorrect. They agree, yet do what they have to.
charlie: Even if you accept the blood libel of the zionists against the Torah community and believed there was discrimination (do you also believe we use Christian blood for our Matzos?), there is no basis for the zionist court to force the parents to send their children to a school they do not wish to sent them to (as the parents took their children out of the school after the zionist court forced integration with the children that have TV’s etc. in their homes). There was still no basis for the zionist court to prevent the parents from sending their children to another school (as the parents did after the court tried forcing the school to mix the less and non religious with the other school). And there was no basis for the zionist court to refuse allowing the heroic fathers and mothers from home schooling their children, as they did after the zionist court prevented them from schooling them where they chose.
So even if you accepted the blood libel as being true (despite the fact that 30+% of the Emanuel Bais Yaakov was Sephardic — including the heroic Sephardic fathers who went to prison on the orders of the the Dishon. Edmond Levy for supposedly discriminating against fellow Sephardim!), there still is no comparison to the American court action in the 50’s, as then the court was issuing orders against the school administration/local government — NOT threatening fathers and mothers with imprisonment as the evil zionists did. Even the biggest Sephardic Rov — Chachom Ovadia Yosef — condemned going to court against the Bais Yaakov, and said that person lost his chelek in Olam Haboa as a result.
The Torah’s dictum that a husband is the authority, is not limited to minhugim. In fact, it has nothing to do with minhugim — as regarding minhugim both the husband and wife are bound to them regardless. The husband doesn’t impose his minhgim – the wife is naturally bound to her husbands family’s minhugim per halacha.
The authority Rav Miller was speaking of is in general. And Rav Miller didn’t make this stuff up, nor is he the only one to say so. See the Shulchan Aruch cited earlier.
Hiding – Is your old screen name chasid-of-Hashem?
yitayningwut:
Thanks for that response; no need to apologize. All should be well. You’ve made various points, I’ll address some of them albeit unrelated.
The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah lmoshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
You wrote: “Blanket statements, even of gedolim, do not count here.” But of course you must realize the Gedolim made their statements in their infinite wisdom, which is greater than yours or mine, using more impeccable logic, thought and all the attributes you’ve described in rendering a psak. Are you saying you can disregard the Gedolim’s pronouncements without any other Godol or source other than YOUR own logical psak that you’ve rendered for yourself? And especially moreso expressing YOUR own conclusions against the Gedolim, with no authority to backup your conclusion?
Good Shabbos
artchill:
Good Shabbos
artchill: I didn’t address those. I only addressed those who choose NOT to live extravagantly and ostentatiously and yet are STILL big Baalei Tzedaka. Feel free to compliment the others.
artchill: Perhaps the Rabbonim should no longer give Mussur Shiurim, since, well, those its being directed to (even though not publicly identified) KNOW who they are?
blinky: Your welcome.
apushetayid: I complimented the Baalei Tzedaka.
artchill:
blinky asked a generic, and appropriate, question. He didn’t specify any individuals.
P.S. The ones that help the yeshivos and mosdos tend NOT to live in an extravagant and ostentatious lifestyle.
Can I get back to you after I get the 5th chelek to look it up?
I wonder, does everything need to be written somewhere for it to be so? (We always hear about the “fifth chelek”.) Is it appropriate for a Yid to burp in public, if it isn’t written somewhere otherwise?
How do you generically define subtleties??
I haven’t seen the photo being referenced, so I cannot respond. But for the umpteenth time I repeat, no one on this thread (as far as I recall) claimed photos are 100% assur.
subtleties my friends, subtleties.
There are also missing subtleties here. A lovey-dovey photo of a couple is problematic for public consumption (in addition to even be taken in the first place), whist a serious photo may not be. (Since you are asking for my thoughts.)
Wolf – What I “think” is irrelevant. Who cares what *I* think. I am mevatel my thinking to our Chachomim.
80 — Which shiur?
If the Gedolim make a point, is it not fair for us to repeat their holy words and ideas?
The Gedolim have long railed against this excessiveness.