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Respectfully requesting that this thread remain calm and pleasant.
Interesting question. We also say Avinu Malkeinu which would fall under the same idea… Your question seems to be more about why we refer to Hashem as a father (as opposed to mother) in general, not only where you mentioned, is that right?
Is that in your opinion or have you asked Avraham Fried what he meant? And have you heard the song?
Why don’t you start something on your own? I wonder if something like Wix, or a group etc would work for this.
(In a rush)
I think the info the age gap theory is working off of is missing something, and thats been my point the entire time.
Irrelevant and flawed because you say they are? IIRC, rich dude mentioned in the Mishpacha article that we should look into unexplored options like baalei teshuva, so it seems he agrees that these numbers don’t include everything either.
I’ve asked about eight times so far if there are more singles currently than in the past, and I never said that you made it up, only that you’re supporting something which is very questionable.
You say you (age gappers) are in this to promote shidduchim and as far as I’m concerned, someone genuinely interested would acknowledge the glaring loopholes, and say that we need a comprehensive study to assess things fully. I havent seen that once. Only no answers.
Finally, you came up with something! While I certainly respect the opinion of the gedolim, it is phrased specifically about the “result of population growth”, as well as from a good few years ago. When you have current numbers that factor in everything, and proof that there are more singles than there have been in the past, post them. Until then, I’ll let the other brains take over.
Now can someone start a gofundme to send all the age gappers to shidduch island and leave the rest of us in peace?
The Gedolim have never said there are more single girls than boys.
As opposed to why yours should outweigh the many who disagree with you?
Who’s many? P-r-o-v-e.
And with that I rest my case.
Umm yes, only obvious to you. Tell me again why your opinion should outweigh plenty of other peoples.
Thanks, golfer. That made me smile 🙂
Again, why not? Imagine all the money people can save.
blatantly obvious fact
Obvious only to you. And again you are telling me to believe your opinion, which you have no proof for. Against common sense. Again, I ask if you will buy meat from someone who tells you that its kosher, with no proof. Why are you more cavalier with people’s lives than with the meat you buy?
Again, do you advocate buying meat from a person with no hashgacha?
When you have real numbers, I’ll be happy to continue the conversation.
What’s your proof that anything proposed would be harmful?
Whats your proof that the meat sold by a guy based only on his long white beard is not kosher? Or that an alcoholic behind a wheel will be in an accident? Or that its dangerous to walk into oncoming traffic?
That makes sense. Thanks big deal and feivel.
Aside from a child being older/stronger, what is the benefit of spreading out vaccines?
Well done
Was this a test? Can I choose a sticker? *eyeroll*
The point simply is that the total number of 19 year olds far exceeds the total number of 23 year olds)
Of frum (yeshivish) 19 year olds? No idea. We only have a number of people who affiliated themselves with the yeshivish community during their schooling years and we have no idea how the number is affected by the time those people are 23, and that number only includes people in the US, obviously not eligible singles from overseas or who were not originally included in the numbers.
I said I was finished with this conversation here and bli neder, after this post I will be. If you can prove that there are more singles in shidduchim than there have been in the past, and take all people otd, baalei teshuva etc into account please do so. But no one has any answers. And that still doesn’t stop you from dictating people’s lives. It’s actually amazing.
The longer this conversation gets, the more I smell a rat. I hope people are paying attention.
Yes I definitely know women who would call themselves yeshivish but hardly qualify. And I’d certainly say there are more men becoming baalei teshuva than women. Opinion is a good way to decide people’s lives, right?
the factors taking singles out of the field are if anything going to take more boys out than girls.
Your opinion.
Torah, I’ve spent too much time on this discussion already. But if you like, we can always do a shidduch theory cookbook.
Not both.
Interesting how you know that.
There are also people who are allergic to apples and people who dont like apples, but of course, we don’t know how many. You have proven nothing and expect people to buy into it because you say so. I’m more bothered by the problems this will likely cause but it is actually offensive that you (age gappers) think so little of the frum public. I keep asking the same questions and I havent gotten any answers so I will let other people waste their breath at this point, but I can only wonder if there is any personal gain involved because continuing to promote this with no numbers defies any common sense.
I haven’t see AZ in years. Is DY AZ?
I’m also wondering if GIR is one or both as well.
I have one question for anyone who would like to answer and with that, I will leave others to continue the (non) discussion.
Rabbi A has 25 boys in his class. For snack, the school provides a case of 20 apples. Rabbi B gets the same case of 20 apples, but he has 15 boys in his class, so after he hands out 15 apples, he takes the remaining 5 apples over to Rabbi A’s class.
10 years later: the grade is now divided between Rabbis A, B, C with a total of 50 students. The school provides a total of 55 apples for all the classes to share. Two boys are allergic to apples so there are now 48 boys to feed, and 7 extra apples. 3 apples are inedible for whatever reason. Rabbis A, B, C each take an apple for themselves and the secretary comes by, notices the last apple and takes it.
In both scenarios, the number of boys and apples did not match up, but when other factors were taken into account (the extra apples from the other class, the inedible apples etc) the numbers did, allowing for a match between apples and hungry people. Can anyone prove that there are more single boys/apples today than there have been in the past and can anyone prove the amount of hungry people/apples there are today? When you have that info, let me know.
You’re definitely wrong about it being a questionable condition,
Prove that its worse than its been in the past, and that there are more single girls than boys. And prove that the unknown side effects are better than the problems we are aware of currently.
I haven’t see AZ in years. Is DY AZ?
I’ve been wondering that myself.
GIR, I agree that younger classes are likely larger than older classes, but again, I’m not sure how that determines numbers of singles today.
It’s not a poor analogy, age gappers are advocating unknown medicine for a questionable condition. We have no proof that the situation is any worse than its been in the past.
GIR, I’m pretty sure I answered already. If there are more apples than there were 20 years ago, does that also mean there is a crisis? You can discuss class sizes however much you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s only one factor in the number of singles today, and no one has looked at the situation in its entirety.
If someone came up with a medication for long fingernails which was never tested, would you suggest taking it? Until anyone can prove how the long fingernails in this situation is a problem and that the cure (with unknown side effects) will help, there’s really nothing to discuss. And I’m not sure how anyone can defend this with a clear conscience without that info.
GIR, the amount of students in first and fourth grades is one factor in the final number in the amount of boys and girls single. Its nice to discuss school enrollment but its impossible to determine a final number from that alone. Until there are numbers which take all factors into account, (and that there are more singles now than previously) there isnt much to talk about.
Encouraging 21 year olds (or immature 22 year olds, but obviously even with approval from rebbeim there is certainly some wiggle room with regard to who is mature enough to get married at a young age) to feel like the odd man out when everyone else is dating, and creating a whole lot of hype which just serves to upset everyone when they have no proof that there is a problem altogether, nor that this will improve things (and hopefully not make it worse) is certainly playing with lives.
DY,again, I was referring to the age gap theory supporters as a whole, not NASI in particular.
I agree that many shidduchim are made of boys and girls 3-5 years apart. You are the one asserting that thats a problem and you expect me to believe it based on your say so, despite the fact that there are no numbers to back up your claim and my own (and others) experience says otherwise. You don’t believe anyone to be that stupid, do you?
You can vote with the unfollow button (and still check if you must) or by telling their advertisers that until they find other places to advertise, you will find other places to shop.
Who has a different observation than me? Other people have mentioned that they know as many or more boys than girls. Why should I trust your experience more than my own (and others)?
Even if you haven’t observed the surplus of girls, surely you have observed that the typical shidduch in the yeshiva community is with a boy a few years older than the girl
Definitely. I was referring to the mismatch of numbers the age gap theory promotes.
I did not take a negative approach about NASI anywhere here. You brought it up and I only responded to them as part of the close the age gap crowd in general. and I’m very thankful that based on my observations people are following good sense (and hopefully rebbeim) and not subscribing to their theory. Its one thing to encourage neutral good ideas (redting shidduchim in general) and quite another to play guessing games when people’s lives are on the line.
If my anecdotal evidence (as well as other people who have posted) suggests the opposite of what the age gap theory stands by, I’m supposed to follow their opinion over my own? Thats funny.
First prove that there is an age gap to close. Until anyone can do that, no one should be promoting it in any way.
There are more girls entering shidduchim than boys.
Maybe. We have no idea which girls do not get to the point of shidduchim within the yeshivish community or which ones go back to Israel for shana bet, put off dating for a year allowing their older sister to date, decide to finish a degree first, as well as boys coming from sources we didn’t count. We have no idea how many people consider themselves to be in shidduchim at any time or that there’s even a mismatch of numbers. That’s a whole lot of don’t know for promoting such a drastic change with no proof.
You said I misrepresented the age they were promoting. Earlier you had mentioned that NASI promotes shadchanim focusing on girls older than 19 or 20, and I mistakenly used those numbers about the age they promote for boys to get married.
Ok, correct me. And again, how does that change the fact that there are no concrete numbers of singles?
And the only time I mentioned age was referencing girls who get married at 19/20. How does that qualify as misrepresenting the age which NASI is encouraging?
You are asserting (still waiting for proof) that there are more single girls than boys, and you are basing that on larger families (B”H) and more girls being born each year than boys, leading to a mismatch between the girls of year x and boys of three years earlier. Where have I misquoted you, and how does that change the fact that there are no real numbers of singles?
My “misrepresenting” was referencing the girls who get married at 19/20 instead of the boys at 21.
Again, how does encouraging “some” boys to get married younger help on a large scale?
*thumbs up*
Joseph, those are all good questions that would have to be part of a real study and goes to show yet again, that until we have that info, we may very well be making the situation worse.
Misunderstanding what’s being presented? You’re not presenting anything! I’m understanding perfectly that this is at best, a theory which has no proof, no real numbers, with potential for tremendous risk on a large scale. I simply dont understand how anyone is willing to shoulder that. Perhaps I’m not the one here who is misunderstanding. And you also haven’t responded about the potential risk to shalom bayis.
I’m still waiting for proof that there are more single girls then boys. And the number of baalei teshuva, overseas shidduchim, girls who marry into a different community minus the number of girls who are born into the yeshivish community who don’t reach shidduch age in the yeshivish community would certainly make for some interesting information. But we don’t have that, do we?
That’s not what they’re suggesting
First you tell me there are more single girls and to fix that, boys should start dating earlier and marry closer in age or girls older than themselves. Now you tell me they’re not encouraging it on a large scale (with approval from a rebbe). How does encouraging a small amount of people to follow those rules help match the numbers you keep talking about?
if you don’t understand the math
You keep talking about birthrate, which is nice, but it would be ridiculous to use that to assess the situation in its entirety.
The solutions of NASI as I see it: have people marry younger and pay shadchanim more (and I’m not sure how doing that will miraculously produce more shidduch aged boys).
Birthrate vs the number of girls and boys who reach shidduch age within the yeshivish community, what percentage of those people marry baalei teshuva or those not originally included in the numbers, the amount of people who would naturally have a harder time based on their particular circumstances, family dynamics, the amount of people delaying marriage based on other siblings or career and the amount of time the average person spends in shidduchim/how many people they meet before getting married would be a nice place to start.
There’s no good reason to think that impacts the numbers in a big way.
Simple logic, and until you can prove otherwise I have no reason to accept your opinion. And there is certainly no reason to change the accepted norm based on it.
I didn’t want to discuss NASI specifically because I dont have too many nice things to say about them. I still dont understand how anyone would accept such a half baked idea with no proof. And its not about inactivity vs closing the age gap, everyone encourages redting more shidduchim, only sensible shidduchim, and thats far more effective in practical terms than closing a non existent age gap. In fact this ridiculous idea has taken away time and attention from actual solutions.
The NASI initiatives only promote people getting married
Get married or stay married?
Is there anything objectionable to you about those ideas?
Find me 19 and 20 year olds on a large scale who are ready to get married. (They are encouraging large scale, right? If not whats the point?)
I’m really not sure how anyone can support an idea which has no proof and a “fix” with potential to cause major damage down the line.
Thats my point exactly, theres no real info. I would love that, but until then, at least a semi comprehensive study before trying to change the system and bullying people into following it based on guesstimate. And until someone produces some solid proof that there are more single girls than boys, I’m not sure why anyone would listen.
Allowing people tzaar or to not get married to promote closing an age gap? That sounds really odd to me (and I hope to you as well).
DY, I’m still not sure how that translates into more single girls than boys, and that still doesnt account for people who marry baalei teshuva etc who were not originally included in the numbers.
DY, I’m still not sure how that translates into more single girls than boys, and that still doesnt account for people who marry baalei teshuva etc who were not originally included in the numbers.
I’m speaking of the general yeshivish community, and I’m hearing more and more about it, but it seems to be the dirty little secret that no one is willing to say. Birth rate does not account for those who marry people not included in the original accounting. I’d still like some actual proof that there are more single girls than boys, not based on an assumed birthrate in a specific community or graduation rate. And why should I go on someone else’s say so when my own experience proves otherwise (and most roshei yeshiva, shadchanim and singles do not support)?
I agree with your last paragraph (as I understand it) but I’m not sure how that helps your argument.
You said theres a higher birthrate, and then that your not working from the birthrate. Which one? And how does anyone know there are more girls in shidduchim?
Personally I can think of more single boys than girls. I’m not really sure why I should change to adapt to a system that seems to have no proof (other than an assumed birthrate for our community and takes no other factors into account) especially when my own experience says otherwise.
The paragraph implies that Hashem created extra boys for the sole purpose of an age gap defense (“then the age gap would be worse than it is already”) with the actual people and shidduchim being a secondary goal, and if some people have to suffer because it doesnt match the agenda, then so be it. And I strongly disagree with that implication.
DY, how are you reaching the conclusion that there are more girls in shidduchim than boys?
Also the part about some extra boys being a chessed makes me very uncomfortable hashkafically but I’m not even going there.
Mammele, that doesnt take into account the first grade girls who marry other fourth grade boys who weren’t counted in the original numbers.
I still want to see some proof that there are more single girls than boys and more singles percentage wise than there have been in the past.
The info apy posted (which I have seen before) says otherwise. How are you coming to the conclusion that there are more girls than boys (being born and single)?
Feel free to explain.
So you’re assuming (as is very popular, for better or worse) that there are more single girls then boys. What makes you think it’s not the other way around? And there are certainly many unmarried boys and girls, but do we know that it’s a larger percentage than it has been in the past?
In one publication recently, when someone wrote in saying their son’s rebbe did not encourage younger shidduchim, one advocate responded by asking for the name of said rebbe, to avoid him. There’s a huge difference between “when the rebbe supports it” and that.
Even with agreement from a rebbe, do you know of many boys who were dating at 21? From among my friends, (when I paid attention) I can only think of one girl (22) who married a 21 year old, and I hear it was family policy, not based on age gap.
Before I go further, are we still working off of that one study which, if memory serves me, was basically a list of girls and boys who had graduated from specific schools/yeshivas and how many of those were single/married? Aside from that not being a complete study, at best, it’s focusing on one cause of the disparity, without giving attention to other very real causes.
Also, were the study to have accounted for all factors (overseas shidduchim, baalei teshuva etc) and is correct, and “they” (still wanna know who that is) decide that the age gap is the fix, what happens with the effects of having younger, less mature people getting married on a large scale?