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Distinguished panelists: Perhaps the very title of this thread is lashon hara about generations and generations of our choshuve bnei yeshiva??
dear nomesora,
I’ve clearly been using the word tzibbur in a halkchik sense, to mean minyan. secondly, please speak for yourself i hope i didnt express any lack of concern for other peoples concerns in the greater jewish tzibbur. obviously the guidance by our manhigim in making these minyanim took all the concerns, halachik and hashkafik into account. what other side are u even referring to???dear nomesora,
I’ll address what you consider the root of our disagreement in number 3.
many times we look at a meztius in front of us and need the lenses of halacha to tell us what sort of mestius it is. no one is creating anything, we are just trying to determine if the ten people constitute a tzibbur or are they not metzuraf and we are looking at ten yechidim. in this situation there is a machlokes as to what metzius we are looking at, which lead to a nidon of when the proper thing is to follow the machmirim and when the proper thing to do is follow the meikilim. For that we consult our with manhigim.
4) if u have genuine halachik basis for something I don’t know why youd feel threatened by backlash that claim to have halachick basis to argue, asking shaylas is part of life.
my general motivation in this conversation was to try to help by giving over the das torah I was hearing on this topic and I hope I was able to do so.nomesora,
1) thats not always true. a competent rav will make sure he has all the facts straight, before giving a psak. if the shoel is asking for explanation he can prob find a competent rav that would gladly do that for him too.
2)are u paskening that the spot on a porch cant have a din of meyuchid for tfillah?
3)true. but here we know that the facts are there are many gedolay achronim that view it as a halachick tzibbur.
4)ok feel free to consult a rav if what u deem as dchak shtims with the precedents in halacha that shed insight on what is cosidered dchak.
5)in my circles we are consulting with our poskim often to know exactly what we shud do about this ver sensitive shayla that deals with real shaylos of many brachos levatala as well as the potential to make many minyanim which is obviously a very good incentive.
6)the torah is Hashems transmittion to us of His ratzon of how we should act.
7)i agree there are probably many biases that cud arise in the discussion of this shayla. we find that people put a lot more emotional stock and effort into doing certain mitzvos that may be not nearly as important as others that they do not do. this is why we consult with educated outside opinions who can guide us to do the things that we will gain the most from, while they may not be the things we would feel is the best thing to do. at the same time i would never trust a person who never had any emotional chashivos for minyan, because he may be biased to say that he could sleep until ten for the next month missing minyan without a guilty conscience.dear nomesora,
curious to know ur source for us being a shogeg.
not sure what u mean by take responsibility for themselves, asking a posek is way more responsible than making a nonfullyeducated decision on ur own.
)u were asking if its possible we are doing nothing even tho our poskim said its a minyan. i answered i dont know but even if yes, theres no risk involved. i still maintain that the motivation to do so is not because we have nothing to lose rather because we are losing out in tfilla btzibbur and trying this way at least has many gedolai achronim saying its good.
in other words i didnt understand what u were getting at by asking if its possible that klapay shmaya we are doing nothing while the rabanim say its something, you cant lose by doing what the torah tells u to do. a posek is someone who knows the torah, which is the will of Hashem, and tells you what the will of Hashem is in a given situation. dunno any sources but thats pretty logical, no?i dont know, thats above my pay grade. if its possible does anything change? i’d assume wed certainly be onsim for making brachos levatala, because our poskim said to do it. so what do we have to lose? Hashem says listen to ur poskim and our poskim tell us to do it.
again, as per my understanding of rabbi felders shiur on porch minyanim, a modern day psak often is a decision when to rely on das yachid. the need for tfilla btzibur didnt create the halachik standing a porch minyan relys on. that was decided many years ago by the pri megadim and others(if my memory serves me correctly). that decision was outnumbered by many gedolay achronim and is what is called the das yachid and therefore not relied upon lechatchila to avoid making brachos levatala according to those shitos.
however the mishna brura writes that in a shas hadchak perhaps one may rely on the pri megadim and
today in deciding which poskim to rely on in that shayla, our poskim invoked the motivation of shas hadchak gadol and paskin that since its really important to have tfilla btzibbur, one should rely on the pri megadim(and others) and make a minyan even tho it will go against the gedolay poskim that held its not a minyan and enters shaylos of brachos levatala.
the halachik basis is the pri megadim. the motivation to rely on the pri megagdim is the shas hadchak gadol, which is a need for the koach of a tzibbur.
hope this clarifies ur problem and answers why no on is “Creating minyanim solely for the purpose of having the koach of tefillah b’tzibbur.”
again if ur actually interested in fully understanding and im not doing a good enough job explaining, listen to the beginning of the first shiur.nomesora,
a kula is viable halachik thing u can rely on in a shas hadchak gadol. there is no stirah whatsoever. r felder is saying, as are many poskim, that since tfillah btzibbur is so important, its a good enough reason to rely on the halachick standing that these minyanim rely on to be considered a minyan and one should take part in them.
these are my understanding of his shiurim. if ud like to hear the shiur call 732-363-6713 and then pressing 1, 2, 50.
not sure what u mean by “It does not work”. and no ones dumping ppl in minyanim. and no ones trying to force Hashem to answer anything…. basically u lost me on that whole last sentence.eyes prob not, but we’d hear of enough ppl that wed suspect something is up
so the opinion you just said was, to be clear, that it would make sense shut down shuls and rely on a kula to have tfila btzibbur beacuase theres not enough seats, ppl are saying lashon hara and people are getting drunk. huh???? Do you really think you make sense?
nomesora,
r felder said very clearly that we are only relying on the psak that this is a valid minyan bc its a shas hadchak gadol. im”H bekarov it will not be and of course we will not be making these minyanim and we will be makpid to go to a beis knessess. i dont know why anyone wud ever make one of these minyanim lechatchila.
no one claimed its an incentive,its a viable halachik way to tap into the tremendous koach of tfilla betzibbur without endangering any lives. i dont know of anyone that prefers top daven on his porch over in a shul…but then again…in his shiur on porch minyanim, i belive r felder said that since these minyanim rely on kulas in halacha, one who feels he will daven better inside should do so. baruch shekivanta, although its clear that this sort of minyan has solid halachik standing in the poskim, although our hergeyshim may have originally told us otherwise.
health,
so now instead of having one rav ud prefer to count up all the poskim u know of and go with the majority…?… i lost you…well said damoshe.
health,
maybe if you can get a hold of r dovid feinstein ask him for a list of other poskim you can ask ur shaylas to, im sure he’ll have a bunch. living ur life deciding everything for urself unless u can get through to him may not be the best of ideas.dear health,
just curious if ur not intrested in asking a posek, who is qualified to make an accurate psak based on comparisons to other precendents found in halacha, whyd u even bother comparing it to smoking urself maybe just do what u want based on what u feel the hagdara of safek pikuach nefashos should be? maybe im just not understanding what ur saying… whered u hear u can just pasken for urself without being a posek i dont think thats even possible, cuz only if ur a posek in the area ur pasekning is it even called a psak no? psak by definition has to come from a qualified posek at least on the issue being discussed. do you mean that u are claiming to be fully trained in the issue of pikuach nefesh?… obviously i can only speculate but i would think smoking is a whole different sugya altogether cuz from the beginning a person is already causing damage to themselves which is just a long process that is statistically proven to be a highly likely cause of death… but then again im not sure ur actually interested in the actual truth anyways at this point…dear health,
i did not miss the point. im not a posek, but i did speak to one to confirm that just becuase you discover a scientific possibility that what u are doing can cause someone to die doesnt make you have to avoid it becuase of safek pikuach nefashos. he compared it to driving a car, which is also known to create probably more a significant possibility of death, lo aleinu, yet it is unanimously not considered a situation of safek pikuach nefesh. but regardless of the comparison to driving a car, the point is, we can assume that if any posek is allowing you to stand on ur porch- assuming u describe ur situation exactly, he is saying so with a responsible knowledge of the facts. obviously we are talking about a competent posek that is, of course, someone who can be trusted to do the research necessary for this shayla. the posek i spoke to did know of this research that was quoted and he said it doesnt fit the criteria for safek pikuach nefashos. being 27 feet from someone doesnt create a big enough chance of death to be considered safek pikuach nefashos. so yes, mr 27 feet is keeping halacha perfectly!benjyc, im not sure if you r aware of the actual facts, if anything there was a lot of pressure to sign the original letter. i dont know if u realize but to ban all porch minyanim is not a shayla in safek pikuach nefesh its a shayla in when to make a gzeira of lo plug. this takes an understanding of human and public behavior in the situation, and a vision of what can cause what, and probably other considerations considering how to manage a klal. this is not a health shayla. the presumtion before the shayla even starts is that no one will do anything that has a din of even safek pikuach nefashos. that takes a consultation with doctors. but doctors should not be weighing in on when to make a lo plug any more than anyone else. thats not their specialty.
just bc its possible to reach twenty seven feet doesnt mean every time a person breathes it will go that far, it could be a very small chance, perhaps only if its a cough or a sneeze. these slight chances may not be enough to qualify for safek pekuach nefesh, as not every tiny chance that something could lead to death is a shayla of safek pekuach nefesh. obviously a rav must dan this shayla.