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The children of Machir Ben Menashe
I think it’s very difficult to outright say always muttar or always assur with these issues. It seems to depend not just on who you ask but what, why, how or even who’s music and from what medium to what medium etc. I know two people who asked r’ moshe sternbuch about this, one was told that the specific copying he wanted to do was muttar the other was told assur. The differences in situation were very slight yet apparently significant enough to make one alright and one not.
I have wondered for a long time though, if one did copy in a way that was deemed to be assur, how would one be mekayem ‘v’heishiv es hagezeila’? Simply deleting the music isn’t returning it back to its original state as that exists on a computer or cd or ipod somewhere.
2qwerty – See my response to gornit’s first post…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/should-shmedrick-stop-posting#post-429617
gornit – Amazing how you leaned so much from shmendrick when you only joined the CR 6 days ago, not long after he left…
akuperma –
One should note that until recently, goyim (particularly scholars) would wear a skullcap.
If by this you mean Catholic Priests, perhaps. If not then I’m afraid you’re simply making stuff up.
To me Mahler is more inspiring than MBD, Shostakovitch more than Shwekey. Also, I fail to see why listening to ‘yidden’ by MBD is more spiritual than listening to ‘Genghis Kahn’ (the Eurovision-winning song which ‘provided’ the tune for ‘yidden’). That may be the most famous example of plagiarism in the Jewish-music world but it is by no means amongst a minority. With painfully few exceptions almost all Jewish artists have taken parts or even the entirety of non-Jewish songs. A favourite seems to be Abba who have had part or whole tunes used by Dedi, Shwekey, Gertner, Fried and more.
besalel – I’m not entirely sure that shmendrick was ever benign, some of his posts were just too OTT for that. Trolling does not entail that one is serious about what one posts, most trolls are rarely serious about anything they write. shmendrick might have been being sarcastic, but he was still, IMHO, always a troll from the beginning.
zdad – First, if you’re going to abbreviate my SN, then it’s JMH (not JMP). 😉
Second, I did as suggested and did a quick google. Hopped around a few etymology sites and it does seem like the origin of the word soccer is as you suggested, but is not from the 1850’s – according to most sites I found it dates to 1896 and the story attributing it to an Englishman is likely apocryphal. The word football as describing the sport from which modern Association Football derives dates back to the Middle-Ages (earliest reference is 1280). It seems (according to a few sites I found) that the word soccer was actually a reference to the associations themselves and not the game, and was attributed to the game by your lot across the pond. So, all in all, it seems fairly clear that football was always the name of the game. It may be that some people called the game itself soccer much later (a good 40 years after Association Football became codified and popularised) or that the nickname given to the associations was applied to the game. Either way, we invented the game and we decided to call it football. So there :-p.
Where do I get my regulation Vorpal Sword from?
Seriously though, I do feel that the mods have been cracking down a bit recently with the removal of a few of the more odious trolls which, personally, I am very grateful for. That said, there does seem to be a lot of tolerance given to trolls here sometimes. As such, if needed, I shall be more than happy to unsheathe Glamdring.
zdad and frummy – Sorry my tongue-in-cheek post was read in a different light to the one in which it was written. Btw, I have never come across the ‘soccer’ short for ‘association’ etymology before. Do you have a source?
Zdad – Whether or not he was ‘spiritually Jewish’, the fact remains that Mendelssohn was a Jew. And not antisemitic. Which was the point of my post.
Silurian, servant and sontaran vs. snowmen. Safe!
Nechomah –
most of the composers were antisemitic.
Not sure where you got that information from but it’s definitely mistaken. Sure there were some high-profile antisemitic composers, Wagner springs to mind, but most (and there were many hundreds of composers in the music-era commonly referred to as classical, i.e. 17th-early 20th Centuries) were not in the least bit. Many (for example, Mahler, Mendlessohn, Shoenberg, Suk) were Jewish themselves and many (including Dvorak, Elgar, Borodin, Bruckner) were decidedly prosemitic. And, yes, some people won’t listen to Wagner as a result of his antisemitism, but to not listen to any classical music whatsoever because you believe all of them to be antisemitic is just mistaken.
If you want to know about how to play football, ask an Englishman. We invented the game, we get to decide what it’s called. It is not called ‘soccer’, that’s a daft name for a sport. What you lot play is properly known as ‘rugby for wimps’. Football, as its name suggests, is played by kicking a ball, not throwing it or battering people who happen to be within 20 yards of it for no discernible reason. The game flows and doesn’t have to stop every 37 seconds for advertising breaks and a coffee, and also pits just one team against one team (though substitutions are allowed)instead of rotating teams within teams to play other bits of teams from within the other team. And if you should wish to play rugby, no need for all that padding just go at each other and have done with. And if you should need to call a try a ‘touch-down’, please ensure that the ball actually does ‘touch-down’ and isn’t simply carried over a line. The end.
I have declared war on the moon.
Aishes Chayil – No idea, but what’s that got to do with anything?
I know the Chasam Sofer wrote a teshuva about giving children more than one name, but it mustn’t have been all that bad as he gave his son 3 (Avrohom Shmuel Binyomin)…
Shmendrick – I have to wonder, when does tradition start? Is it the 18th Century (see thread on davening from phones…) or is it before then (as here)? Either tradition starts before the 18th Century, in which case 1 name only is traditional and learning from vilna Shas and wearing black and white is not, or it starts with the 18th Century in which case the reverse?
I’m the clever one, you’re the potato one…
DaasYochid – I’ve come to wonder whether or not we are witnessing some brilliant double/triple/quadruple-bluffing. Are some posters so ironic they come across as real or so real they come across as ironic? Are they caricatures that are so well drawn they look like ugly portraits or portraits so ugly they look like caricatures? Hmmmm…
Just popping in to say hi. Not been on here for a while. Maybe put something up proper soon, we’ll see…
Just so you know, the apology does NOT extend to Loyal Jew. He/she is wrong, and he/she deserves every word I wrote to him/her.
cantgetit – To quote Yirmiyahu Hanavi: “These are the eyes that have seen this.” As I said, I learned in two of the largest and best respected Yeshivas in the world, I know the system and I know the people in it. It’s basically a conveyor belt, you get on it in kindergarten and 20-odd years later you end up in kollel. You make no effort, you just go with the flow. Or as my mashgiach put it “put a broom in kindergarten and soon it will be a kollel yungerman”.
How can chodosh be ossur if it doesn’t exist? Ein kol chodosh tachas hashomesh? ;-p
Toi – Most of the guys who don’t want to leave the Beis Hamedrash aren’t doing it because they specifically want to stay, but because they have no idea how to leave. I learned in two of the largest Yeshivas in the world and can tell you from all the literally thousands of Yeshiva bochurim I’ve met there were maybe 200 or so serious learners. Serious learners are a small minority amongst learners too…
DaasYochid – I had a re-read of your posts, and I think uneeq might be right. I’m sorry. My reaction was a bit of a visceral one; I had a bit of a bad experience myself (see thread on Bet Shemsh incident for details). Once again, sorry. And, just btw, I was a pre-chasuna learner/earner (now post-chasuna…), and the circles I was in had a fair few others too.
Your point about associating with similar types may be generally true, though not in my specific case. I have friends from pretty much across the spectrum, from Sadigur to Chardal to MO to Yekkish to Brisk and further.
And in case you missed it, sorry.
Hope I didn’t sound insulting. I didn’t mean it to be. I just felt very defensive about the issue because of my negi’us. Time for me to calm down…
WIY –
it was only when I started working that I felt inspired to take my learning time more seriously
I felt exactly the same way. I’m not saying I wasn’t serious in Yeshiva, because I was extremely serious, but somehow the learning I do now means more to me.
I’m not saying there aren’t serious guys out there, but it is a minority to find guys who learn even 7 solid hours a day in beis medrash. If these guys ever made a cheshbon of how they actually spend their time I think there would be a lot more guys working…
Have you been looking inside my head? ;-p
uneeq – Sorry, but he isn’t. The OP asked for a serious learner/earner, DY said that we are a minority. That is, within the group ‘learner/earners’, serious ones are a minority. I was saying we aren’t. I do get that many earners aren’t learners, although the pendulum is quickly swinging, but within context of this discussion serious learner/earners are the vast majority.
DaasYochid – I’m unfortunately saying it from experience. You wouldn’t believe the kind of things that people say when you leave Yeshiva and go to work. I know that not everyone is like that, and I know that the majority aren’t either. I received a lot of support when I went to work from across various sectors of the kehilla, but that still doesn’t take away from the fact that the attitudes expressed by this group are held, maybe to not such a high degree but still held, by a not-insignificant proportion of the Charedi world. As exemplified by a number of posters here (not just the one). And a natural consequence of that is that some people will take those views and radicalize them to the point that they end up like the nutters in Bet Shemesh. That’s all I was saying I suppose. It probably came out a bit harsh because of my negi’us, I know. For which I apologize. I wish I wasn’t generalizing, honestly I do, but from painful experience I can assure you I am not.
DaasYochid – Because claiming we are a minority is just unfair. Sorry, but we aren’t. As I said, ALL the learner/earners I know are serious. You claim that the serious learners are in Yeshiva full-time, but they aren’t. We’re out there and we’re working too. We haven’t formed a ‘serious learner/earner league’ (hence your comparison to red-heads [nice Holmes reference, btw] is invalid), it’s just that every single one of the learner/earners I know is serious. Every single one.
Loyal Jew –
“Learning and earning” don’t go together. The rule is to aim for a talmid chacham, which plainly rules out the “earning” part.
Try telling that to the Navi Amos (farmer), Hillel Ha’Zaken (woodchopper), Shammai Ha’Zaken (builder), R’ Eliezer (naval merchant), Shmuel (doctor), Rashi (vintner), Rambam, Ramban (both doctors), and the list goes on…
If you read the posts by various people here on other threads (Loyal Jew is a prime example) you will find that unfortunately the attitudes towards earning a parnosso are mindblowingly ridiculous in some circles. This episode is simply a natural consequence of those attitudes. Shame really.
Daas Yochid/Loyal Jew/more-2: you (guys?) are so incredibly wrong. You make arrogant, sweeping generalisations without even attempting to prove it. I take your bilious statements personally because I am a very serious learner who left yeshiva whilst sill a bochur to go to work. I am not YU-type either, just a normal guy who felt that I would gain more from being a learner/earner than from staying in yeshiva. And I am still a very serious learner, as are all the learner/earners I’ve met since leaving yeshiva. We are not, in my circles at least, in the minority. I also fail to see how black hats in any way impact on your seriousness in learning.
Unfortunately, my friend’s reply to “Jsus loves you” is unsuitable to post here. Given that my friend (like myself) is a guy, I’m sure you can work it out for yourself…
daf – You can get Balvenie 15 here in England still… They keep the good stuff here in the U of K and send out the rest to the US and pass it off as quality to gullible Americans who think they know better…
Bother.
BaalHabooze – If you want to play that way, fine. Then wish 1: that the rule about no infinite wishes never existed. Thus allowing wish 2: infinite wishes. And then I’m good to go!
Number 1: I wish for an infinite amount of wishes. From there, I’m set…
yitayningwut – They don’t have to care. Makes no difference to me. All I did was say that I was aware of the issue they would likely bring and my reluctance to discuss it to pre-empt their bringing it. They were oblivious to this in their single-mindedness and said it anyway, in a manner that indicated that they thought I was unaware of said inyan. I therefore repeated my original statement to the point that I had already indicated my awareness. Whether or not they care is their problem. Now, did you have anything else to say or are you just going to reply with another put-down? Coz franlky, I don’t care about your put-downs.
yitayningwut – It wasn’t a warning, simply an indication that I knew that at some point someone would mention it and that I really didn’t want to get involved in a lomdish discussion of what it means and what is and isn’t included as it’s a phenomenally complex and controversial inyan. The repetition was to point out to those who did mention that I had already indicated my reluctance to get involved in such a discussion.
Longarekel, kozov – like I said, please don’t get me started on ‘lo sosur’.
ready now – You googled it. Course you did. Do you google all posts you don’t like to see if they’re word-for-word quotes from random secular books?
longarekel -“fulfill God’s will in the proper fashion”. You do know that Neiros Chanuka is d’rabonon, right? (And please don’t get started on lo sosuru etc., you really don’t want to go there with me…)
Ender – I’ve got 2 judges for a case I’m bringing. Can you be a third?
Ender – I wanted to sue him personally but now you tell me he’s dead. What happened? Did you take the law into your own hand and kill him?
MDG seems not to be Joseph. I have my suspicions about the others. And no, I’m not a mod.
Zeeskite – derogatory tone or not, his post was in no way an affront to HaShem, torah or Gedolim. It was pointing out that someone has interpreted something in a rather over-the-top manner. That’s to do with the person not HaShem. And your response was unjustified.
sw33t – Bravo. You have earned my undying respect and admiration. Once again, bravo.
Ender – I’m suing Bonzo Madrid, and may need your help…
I’m sorry, Zeeskite, but referring to someone who thinks that a troll’s random chumra may not be m’ikkar ha’din as the yetzer horah (you called ‘old man’, and I quote, “Old Foolish King”, which, as you pointed out is how Shlomo Hamelech referred to the yetzer horah) is not “defending the honor of HaShem, His Gedolim, and His Torah.” It’s rude. Putting down anyone who doesn’t agree with your hashkofos and disregarding the gadlus of certain Gedolim (when it was pointed out to you that not all Gedolim held as you thought, you decided that they weren’t ‘Toarah-true Gedolim’) is not “defending the honor of HaShem, His Gedolim, and His Torah.” It’s not only rude, but a p’gam in Kovod Hatorah. You may not be trying to be rude, but you’re managing very well.
Zeeskite – I just found your comment mildly ironic given that on other threads you have ably demonstrated your ability to be just a tiny teeny weeny bit rude and decidedly unzees.