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Health – Oh deary, deary me… Look, you claim to because a Hurricane happened after an event this means that one may be a cause for the other. This is a) logically unsound and b) arrogant in the extreme. I do not know whether or not one thing causes the other. The first prosecution here in England for not performing a ceremony for what you call a to’eva couple was nearly two years ago. There has been a spectacular lack of hurricanes or any large scale natural disaster of any kind anywhere near the area concerned. It is presumptuous in the extreme to claim to have any idea of why HKB’H does the things he does when and where he does. I do not think I misinterpreted your post, but you definitely misinterpreted mine. Nowhere do I claim that one aveiro is more or less chomur than the other, simply that the adjective ‘to’eva’ is applied equally to both. ‘To’eva’ is not an indicator of seriousness of an aveiro, but a description of it, it is an aveiro which is (or so Artscroll says) ‘abominable’. Now the Torah calls many things a ‘to’eva’, for various reasons. Plumba was merely asking why this label has been reserved exclusively for those who are over just one of these many when the Torah applies it to others, he was not equating onshin or chumra, just adjectives. And if the HKB’H didn’t think that dishonesty in masoh u’maton was not a to’eva, He would not have used that word when describing it in His Torah. The quote from the Gemoro was simply to highlight that masoh u’maton is not a light matter, it is something HKB’H treats with the utmost seriousness and yet this same to’eva is willfully ignored by hundreds of ‘bnei torah’ because they can ‘mach shtick’. Well I’m sorry, but it’s still a to’eva, however much shtick is used.
Dyspraxia.
Englishman – Nothing could be further from the truth! The talmidei haGr’a were staunchly anti-chassidic and kept the cherem very much in place. Nefesh Hachaim was written in direct opposition to the Tanya, and unfortunately the relationship between the two groups became rather acrimonious. R’ Elchonon in kovetz shamuos (chelek 2) brings word for word a letter he received from the Chofetz Chaim in which the Chofetz Chaim writes that the cherem was eventually lifted except for Chabad which was still in effect to that day. So now what?
Leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but memories.
Englishman – I was merely pointing out that you cannot say that because Gedolim do it, it is correct for their “talmidim and folllowers”.
Aaron Chaim – I believe I’ve answered that point…
Health – Fine, so Irene was as a result of Charedi Brooklyners bashing MO and YU then…
Nothing is coincidence but correlation does not equal causation. And I seriously doubt that you are capable of figuring out HKB’H’s reasons for how he runs the world.
And, just to put a word in for plumba, if the Torah equates them (it uses the same word to describe all of them [though plumba is mistaken in claiming that the Torah calls eating ma’acholos asuros a to’eva]) then, whilst we certainly view certain things as being more distasteful than others, in the Torah viewpoint there is no distinction between how much of a to’eva mishkav zochor is as compared to cheating in business. In fact the Gemoro says that one of the first questions we will all be asked l’achar me’oh v’esrim is whether our masoh u’maton was b’tzeddek. Not whether or not we engaged in certain relationships. This does not mean that we are defending these peoples’ actions, believe me, I’m the last to do that, just that your arrogant claim to know what HKB’H told Moshe Rabeinu that no-one is capable of knowing needs to be properly put into perspective.
“What’s a lemba?” *sigh*… As Tony Blair would say, “education, education, education”.
*’nosato’*
And ‘Sinai’ is not a pircha because there is also ‘Shabbos’ and ‘Sorosecho’ that do not fit in with the rhyme-scheme. Furthermore, not all girsas have the ‘loy/low/loh’ and simply have ‘nostato’, meaning that out of 8 lines that supposedly rhyme half don’t. Which I think rather puts paid to your thesis.
History is also not your friend here as Yismach Moshe was written in Bovel where they certainly did not say ‘oy’.
Aaron Chaim – I hate to break it to you, but if two words end in the same vowel then they will rhyme regardless of how you pronounce that vowel: “yismach mowshe bematnas chelkow ki eved ne’mon koroso low” rhymes just as much as “yismach moyshe bematnas chelkoy ki eved ne’mon koroso loy” or “yismach mohshe bematnas chelkoh ki eved ne’emon koroso loh”… And I don’t smoke, peace pipes or otherwise.
HaKatan – I didn’t ‘corrupt’ my davening, just that the ‘oy’ kind of crept into my havoro by some kind of societal osmosis. It wasn’t an intentional thing, just my peer group all were ‘oy-ers’ and I picked it up. I was very, very young at the time. I’ve been trying to change back since my teens, it just doesn’t seem to be working…
Englishman – mesorah does not go after which Godol you choose to ‘follow’. It is something that is handed down mi’dor dor within families and kehilos, not taken on willy-nilly based on what your favourite Godol’s family did.
Derech – Am I that obvious?
And now to get things really going… The answer is none. Our havoros (including Teimani, hate to break it to you guys…) are so distorted from the original that I doubt Moshe Rabbeinu would have any idea what any of us were on about, whether we say oh, ow, oy, ou, or whatever. That being said, some hovoros have a mesora and some don’t. Oh, ow, ou have mesoras that go back over a thousand years, oy is just plain made up. Having said that, I was taught ow but say oy due to societal influences. I know it’s wrong but can’t change back however hard I try, I automatically slip back to oy. My wife and I have decided, however, that any kids we have will be ow-ers as is our mesora.
Cracking bit of wensleydale!
cutting! cutting me own throat… *sigh*
And that’s slitting me own throat…
So I take it the Potterites and Whovians aren’t Hobbitses? Shame.
Corf neledh ‘nin Ellerain nui venel,
Er-chorf a thorthad hain bain, Er-chorf a chired hain,
Er-chorf a thoged hain bain a din fuin an nuded hain
Very odd you are, indeed. Root and twig, very odd!
NAS – your father would be proud…
SaysMe – nice to see you back! Hope the next few weeks are a bit better…
…it’s a massive alien robot space-ship with space-time bridges in…
So let me get this straight… There are two doctors, one with a jacket and one without, the sun is really an exploding phone-box, statues are evil, spoilers are bad and the Roman is made out of plastic… Okay….
Thanks!
Yichusdik – hate to say I told you so…
Mods, this is your pester for today. If Jimmy Savile gets a subtitle given the impropriety of his screen-name, I think it’s not too much to let me have mine. Thanks! You even have a choice:
a) against your 2
or
b) a penny for your thoughts, minus some change
Your turn! 😉
JS, I doubt the current location in your profile is accurate. I think the real Jimmy Savile took a one-way trip on the down-escalator. No-one is out to get you but this kind of ‘joke’ is utterly revolting.
… lead us not unto the Dark Side…
Derech – Can we now have a discussion as to when we say eilu v’eilu? It’s not so poshut that we say it when it comes to a machlokes in metzius… ;-p
OMG, they killed Rory!
I believe in equality for echinoderms and arachnids too! So 40 echinoderms or 25 arachnids please. Or 20 echinoderms, 12 arachnids and a dog.
Who Art in Heaven…
It’s kind of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.
Yichusdik – Don’t. Just don’t. People don’t, or won’t, understand. All that’ll happen is more nastiness, so leave it alone and just walk away. It’s not worth the aggro, mate. Just not worth it. I’m sorry, but that’s unfortunately the way it is.
Having said that, if there is a fight, let me know and I’ll have your back…
Well JS, considering your screen-name, you probably know what’s wrong with shaking young women’s hands in a professional setting…
Seriously mods, now that it’s been pointed out to you that Savile was the lowest of the low, could you please get this guy to change their screen-name? And JS, get a life and a new screen-name. You could probably get them on a two-for-one at Poundland.
Sorry.
gavra – yup! whoever they are (and I note they have just appeared in the last few days…) they should be thoroughly and utterly ashamed of themselves. Never mind eating in the street, choosing a screen-name like that is the most unrefined, unmenchlich thing on this thread…
Syag – it’s quite funny now… I’d like that one, or my own humble suggestion posted earlier. Which has been entirely ignored by the mods.
Therefore: MODS, consider yourself pestered. And unless I get one, I shall scream and scream and scream until I’m sick. And I can…
gotbeer – it’s ‘gangnam style’ not ‘gang ’em’…
Derech – I think we shall have to agree to disagree because we do not agree on first principles, so we’ll just end up going in circles. You have been told by your rebbeim that all the shittos are “different bechinos of the same reality” (whatever that means) and that a young universe is ‘Da’as Torah’. I do not think that this is necessarily the case, and have heard such from my rebbeim. Therefore, I am justified in my not accepting your answers, being that they are only answers if you need them to fit into the framework that you already have, whereas you are justified in not accepting my questions on them as your framework excludes them.
A few other points:
a) Abiogenesis simply means that organic matter is a product of non-organic matter, it does not mean that it is autogenic (that it came of its own accord), and the possuk says quite clearly that HKB’H made Odom (organic) from earth (non-organic). Whatever Dr Schroeder wants to do with that, he is entitled to. I was just pointing out that the Torah talks about abiogenesis as done by G-d.
b) The Rishonim did not believe in Steady State Theory, however, when talking about it in seforim (so as to discuss why it is incorrect) they had to have a term for it, and so labelled the theory Olom Kadmon. (though the Rambam in Moreh does seem to imply that if Olom Kadmon were to be scientifically proven [and not just posited by metaphysical speculation] then he would accept it and try to see how it fit with the Torah… but that’s a shmooze farzich…)
And lastly, c) Deneb is a star that is 7000 light years away. That means that the light from it takes 7000 years to reach us here on Earth, and yet it is a star that is visible to the naked eye (we do not need other methods of detection, optical or otherwise to see it) implying that the light that we see left Deneb 7000 years ago, which in a young universe is impossible as Deneb did not exist then to be giving light…
Syag – I would like one for myself if possible
NAS – amen! And the same for all singles… Btw, I need your help with a poem I’m working on at the moment… I’ll email it to you, see what you can do with it…
Maybe some non-USA-based mods would help…
And I know you’re giving them out, coz notasheep just got one. Come on…
I would have followed you my friend, my liege, my king. Farewell, I am sorry.
EXTERMINATE! EX-TER-MI-NATE!
Love how the youtube ad has the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack…
Derech – I drew no conclusions, simply asked a question. The question essentially remains unanswered. And, as I pointed out, the question of the age of the universe is not a matter of ‘Rabbinical Knowledge’ as there are many Rabbinical opinions.
Your tzu shtell to flat Earths and suns going around them is not especially valid. For starters people knew that the Earth was not flat for many thousands of years, but secondly because HKB’H put methods of determining the shape of the Earth, and also of heliocentricity, into the berioh, they simply remained to be discovered. In this case, it is the methods of determining that have already been discovered that are leading to the mistaken conclusions, not just the article by simple observation.
I think you also fail to address my problem with applying your Sifsei Chaim to dinosaur bones by taking a far too literal approach to my statement about Alpha Centauri, Alpha Centauri is lav davka (although Deneb might have been a better choice – it is 7000 light years away, yet we see its light…). All I was pointing out was that it a very arbitrary application. So maybe Alpha Centauri is still ‘working’, but what about an extinct volcano? Is that also a remnant? Furthermore, it falls foul of Russel, because I can claim any date I want and anything that appears older I can call a physical remnant of a spiritual existence. I can claim that the universe is 450 years old and the cemeteries are simply full of physical remnants of spiritual existences.
I’m not sure I understand your point about deer, I think that keeping something in existence (the deer had a skeleton whilst it was still alive) is hardly comparable to creating a physicality just to have an existence.
I’m not going to discuss paradigm shifts here, but, as a quick note on your point about abiogenesis: “Vayitzer H’ Elokim es ho’odom ofor min ho’adomo” (Bereshis 2,7). Abiogenesis ;-)?
Also, the cyclical (or spiral) nature of time time is hardly relevant. Whether time is a pond or a stream, if there is more than a certain amount of it, there is more than that amount. The branch cosmology doesn’t work in this instance as that would involve parallel existences whereas we are positing sequential ones. Olom kadmon is the term the Rishonim use for Steady State Theory; the Big Bounce (as you call it) is simply a modern iteration of it as it involves the infinitude of both matter and time.
As for Seder Olom being quoted in the gemoro, there are a number of things that are in there that are not of Tannaic or Amoraic authorship. Unless the person quoting it is a Tanna or an Amora, this would not rule out later authorship. Second, the fact that it goes through the generations is irrelevant as that goes back to Odom, not the sheshes yemei bereishis. And I know there is what to have a massive argument about there.
Anon1m0us – I think you are just as mistaken in your certitude in an old universe as, say, 2Scents or gotbeer are in theirs in an young one…
Health – it is not a gemoro, but a Gr’a. Which simply proves that he held that the universe is 6000 odd years old, not that the universe actually is that age.
Come on mods, you know you want to give me a sub (by which I mean a bit of writing that appears underneath my username, not a baguette sandwich…). I shall pester you until you do.
Now is this winter of our discontent made beauteous by this son of York.