just my hapence

Old McDonald was dyslexic a, e, i, o, u.

No! Not the comfy chair! And the fluffy cushions!

ready now – nope, perceive does not mean “to know”:

1. To become aware of directly through any of the senses, especially sight or hearing.

2. To achieve understanding of; apprehend. [Middle English perceiven, from Old French perceivre, from Latin percipere : per-, per- + capere, to seize; see kap- in Indo-European roots.]

Note that even in the 2nd definition, it means to acquire understanding that was not previously there (“achieve”). HKB’H does neither of those, He just knows without perceiving.

Alright, it’s a jammy dodger. But I was promised tea…

OOM – ready now seems to be drunk rather a lot then… Thanks for the link, btw, did you see him/her refer to themselves in the third person?

And it’s goodnight from him. Goodnight. And it’s goodnight from me, goodnight.

That’s the biggest ‘if’ since Rudyard Kipling started projecting his poems into the night sky, batman-style.

Maybe. Maybe not. Speculation is all very well but the fact remains that I just can’t play an instrument. Anyways, I’m sure this is a poetry thread… And therefore:

Have you seen my dream?

How could my dream just disappear?

I had my dream just yesterday,

This morning, not an hour ago,

How come it went when I let go?

This dream of mine, I need to find it

A dream, I realise now, you must

For just open up your hand and soon

20, 16, 12, 8, how do we depreciate?

NAS – I am not manually dexterous enough to play any instrument, as you well know…

ready now – I note you’re still on the internet, still avoiding answering direct questions and still twisting peoples’ words to suit yourself. My sincere brocho to you, and I mean it, is for you to do teshuva about false accusations, misrepresentations, shakrus, bad hashkofo and worse middos. That you actually learn about the things you feel somehow qualified to pontificate about.

And I have read all the Maggid books, btw. I can make informed comparisons. Can you?

evil bunny wabbit &:#=…

Mods – just wondering why my post from nearly six hours ago is still awaiting moderation when posts submitted later are already through. Could you enlighten me?

I was in a similar situation and invited my friends’ spouses in the knowledge that, since my wedding was not in the same country as any of them lived, only my friends would come… However, I did write notes on the invitations thanking the spouses for letting my friends come.

NAS – I think I remember that one from a few years back. If I’m honest, not amongst my favourites. The brush-strokes are a bit too broad for me…

Previous post should read “the ‘hak’he es shinov’ of the haggada”.

NAS – like I said, my posts are bit like the ‘hak’he es shinov’, not for the rosho but for the people watching, similarly my posts are not really for ready now but for the other people reading.

If at first you don’t succeed, try failing.

Last night my toilet was broken into, and there are some places where an Englishman should feel secure.

The Pobble who has no toes

Had once as many as we

When they said, ‘Some day you may lose them all;’–

He replied, — ‘Fish fiddle de-dee!’

And his Aunt Jobiska made him drink,

Lavender water tinged with pink,

For she said, ‘The World in general knows

There’s nothing so good for a Pobble’s toes!’

The Pobble who has no toes,

Swam across the Bristol Channel;

But before he set out he wrapped his nose,

In a piece of scarlet flannel.

For his Aunt Jobiska said, ‘No harm

‘Can come to his toes if his nose is warm;

‘And it’s perfectly known that a Pobble’s toes

‘Are safe, — provided he minds his nose.’

The Pobble swam fast and well

And when boats or ships came near him

He tinkedly-binkledy-winkled a bell

So that all the world could hear him.

And all the Sailors and Admirals cried,

When they saw him nearing the further side,–

‘He has gone to fish, for his Aunt Jobiska’s

‘Runcible Cat with crimson whiskers!’

But before he touched the shore,

The shore of the Bristol Channel,

A sea-green Porpoise carried away

His wrapper of scarlet flannel.

And when he came to observe his feet

Formerly garnished with toes so neat

His face at once became forlorn

On perceiving that all his toes were gone!

And nobody ever knew

From that dark day to the present,

Whoso had taken the Pobble’s toes,

In a manner so far from pleasant.

Whether the shrimps or crawfish gray,

Or crafty Mermaids stole them away —

Nobody knew; and nobody knows

How the Pebble was robbed of his twice five toes!

The Pobble who has no toes

Was placed in a friendly Bark,

And they rowed him back, and carried him up,

To his Aunt Jobiska’s Park.

And she made him a feast at his earnest wish

Of eggs and buttercups fried with fish;–

And she said,– ‘It’s a fact the whole world knows,

‘That Pebbles are happier without their toes.’

SM – my chavrusa wrote the music for that, and unfortunately I can’t remember it. Anyone with any musical inclinations here is free to see if they can do anything with it…

ready now – And yet after me asking for mareh mekomos, you come back with your opinions. It’s hard to know where to start. You decided that ‘story’ = ‘book’, where this was not in any way indicated in post, then ignore the fact that I gave you the names in a second post and then after I show you exactly where you were wrong you jump back to the first post claiming that you never knew better…

You have this notion of ‘studying on a regular basis’ – what’s that supposed to mean? The Gr’a certainly studied maths to a high level, something you say is unnecessary. I give you logical arguments about loshon horo. You say “I disagree” and that’s that.

You have no understanding of what Chazal meant by ‘Circaso’os’ and ‘Te’atros’ because you do not know what these things were in the ancient world. Circuses were where wild animals were made to fight each other, or men made to fight each other, or both at the same time. The theatre had nothing to do with plays – those were performed in ampitheatres. And to then say that all literature is merely a bluepriint for plays is nonsense in the extreme. Poetry and novels are completely different media to plays. You have no knowledge of science fiction, wherein no magic or the such is performed (the clue is in the name science…).

And Shakespeare’s ‘anti-semitism’ is hotly debated by literary critics. At any rate, he did not ‘indoctrinate generations’, at the worst he reflected the prevailing attitudes of the times. To oppose learning Shakespeare on the grounds that he wrote in Old-English is just ridiculous – it’s not about the vocabulary (though many words we use in modern English were invented by him), it is about how to use the language, sentence structure, grammar, use of language. All of which Shakespeare is very useful for learning.

At no point have you actually answered any of my questions. You simply bleat on about how secular literature is ossur and how Jewish literature is good. And you have absolutely no evidence for either claim. The objective fact is this: the standard of Jewish literature is very poor, and if we wish to teach our children decent English skills then they are not suitable to learn from. Now. PLEASE. Stop being so blinkered and actually answer my questions. Give me mareh mekomos. Something, anything but your own opinions as if they were da’as torah. So, the questions again:

1) You claim the Rambam hated ‘imagination’, I show you the mareh mokom in the Rambam and what the Rambam really says. Where is your Rambam? Mareh mokom please.

2) If secular literature is ossur, how could a Rosh Yeshiva have the Collected Works of Shakespeare on his own private bookshelf, regardless of whether or not he read it?

3) How can you claim that only a ‘basic’ level of knowledge of maths and science is necessary when a good grasp of some fairly intricate maths and science is needed for many sugyos in shas? I even gave you a few of the sugyos to look up so you could see for yourself.

4) How can you learn English skills from Jewish literature when that literature is not of any sort of decent standard? (And please don’t just say that it is good enough. It isn’t. You have displayed a profound lack of knowledge of both literature and English skills thus far. Those who are competent have all agreed that Jewish literature just isn’t good enough. I’m not sure you’re qualified to disagree.)

5) Who on earth gave you the right to decide what a Godol should or shouldn’t do? Who made you the arbiter of Gadlus? If a Godol does not think that there is anything wrong with something, how can you tell me that for me to say that that is what the Godol says is loshon horo?

Direct answers. Evidence. Mareh mekomos. That’s all I ask for. I suspect it may be too much to hope for.

On the subject of the sea (also written originally as song lyrics):

Heaven’s Ocean

Standing at the world’s edge, watching, as the crystal waves

Shatter on the uncompromising sand,

Bringing the haughty foam down to its knees, pleading for mercy

Even as the last flecks die an ignoble death.

Every tear that rolls off my cheeks, finds its final resting place

With its salty brethren, but its soul soars heavenwards,

Adding a drop, single and pure,

To heaven’s ocean.

And the ghost-ships of emotions long dead

Sail those briny depths, wandering forever, crossing waters

That have been crossed a thousand times before

By a thousand broken hearts, yet each one is alone.

All of them go in the same direction, for the only way is up,

Because with every true tear that falls, the wave rises,

Until it gains the strength to push its way through

And to break on the shores

Of Heaven’s ocean.

And enter Paradise.

Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you.

ready now – Did you even read my post? I wrote quite befeirush that the story of Atlantis was not a book in its own right but was in 2 of Plato’s books. I named them: Timaeus and Critias. And I then went on to say that the Rambam most definitely did read them (though not in the original Greek) as he quotes them. By the way, Plato himself was a strict monotheist, which you’d know if you’d ever read any of his philosophy. His theory of Emanations might intrigue you as well, if you wish to compare it to Sefiros. The references to avoda zoro in the story of Atlantis are artistic license, not serious theology.

Further, if it is as ossur as you say to read secular literature, and can be meivi lidei michsholim rabim, how on earth could a Rosh Yeshiva even have it on his private bookshelves (not, as you claim, in the institution)? Regardless of whether or not he read it (and he did), how could he have it in his house, in his study, on his shelves? It is not loshon horo to say that he did, as it is not derogatory. You create this arbitrary notion of Gadlus then decide that since in your opinion a Godol would not do it then it is loshon horo to say he did. If a Godol can do it, it is not loshon horo to say he did.

Your responses to NAS are equally misinformed. First, the national syllabus takes into account suitability of content anyway. And you cannot just ‘ask the government’ to be ‘culturally sensitive’, that’s just absurd. They do not set the exams – that is done by various examining boards, and the material must therefore be suitable for ALL the people sitting those examinations. The texts are standardized – everybody doing that board’s exam learns the same text. Nobody is going to set Jewish books as set texts for 1,000,000 non-Jewish kids so as to be ‘culturally sensitive’ to a couple of thousand Jewish ones.

And I’m not even going to get started with Lord of the Rings…

Also, “how to read and understand, to learn communication skills, to learn grammar, to learn how to construct a comprehensible sentence” are not skills that can be learned from Jewish literature because, as has been pointed out many times on this thread, these books display a profound lack of all the above skills. We also need to learn more than simply ‘basic’ maths if we wish to learn many sugyos of Gemoro. My chavrusa couldn’t understand what my problem was with the sugya of 10 trees to a beis cur when I asked him that the square root of 10 is an irrational number, and he is an intelligent young man who, at that point, had been in yeshiva for a number of years. Luckily, the rishonim knew more than simply ‘basic maths’ and therefore answered my question. Try learning eruvin without a good grasp of maths – my uncle, the Rav of Glasgow, said that he wished he’d learned more than just ‘basic maths’ for just that reason. Similarly science – the first perek of Sukka needs a good knowledge of optics, refraction, focal lengths, etc. as well as a fairly high standard of geometry. The Gr’a in hakdomo to Even Shleima says that a lack in knowledge of the 7 ‘amudei hachochmo’ (which includes maths and science) creates a chisoron in their knowledge of Torah. So of course there is a need for core subjects in everyday life if your everyday life includes limud Gemoro. Which it should.

And you continue to be on the internet…