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A friend of mine was newly BT when he went commited the sin of going into a very “frum” shul wearing a blue shirt and no hat. Someone came over to him and yelled at him for his lack of proper atire and threw him out of the “frum” shul.
To all of you so sure how to be a proper frum Yid: was this proper? What do you think this new BT got from this? Certainly not to dress like those people.
Just a note, an aquaintence of mine recieved a psak form R’ Moshe Feinstien (you’ve all heard of him I’m sure) about socks for women. He said that as long as her knees were covered, even when she sat, she could wear ankle socks. Knee-his, thigh-his or full stockings were not nessasary. So, if an over zealous person were to have gone over to her to give her tochacha for her untzniyus, who would be right? Also, how many of you would listen if someone felt, in no uncertain terms, that your car was too flashy and inappropriate for a frum Jew? Would you run out and buy a more “Yeshivish” car?
While we are on the topic, how come when I got married, over 25 years ago, EVERY woman wore pastels and other bright colors? Any one wearing black was considered not dressed properly. This went for all weddings, Yeshivish, Chasidish etc. Are we truly better now? I don’t think so.
These posts are talking about cleaning ladies (very important to the working mother) but this also goes for stealing another person’s employee. A competitor stole my friend’s employee in the busy season leaving my friend short handed. Then, before Yom Kipur, wrote a letter asking mechila. All of a sudden, this competitor became so frum.
“Ehrlicha Yidden always wear, barring extenuating circumstances…” Tell that to people in Israel who don’t always. Seems to me that wearing a hat and jacket doesn’t make you “ehrlich”. There is a difference between frum (religious) and ehrlich.
What about a man who doesn’t wear a white shirt and black jacket to work (i.e. a repair man or electrician)? If he makes time from his busy day to daven with a minyan, do you want him to go home to change into clothing that would make him look more like you in order to daven? Or do you concider a man who does blue collar labor not really an ehrlich frum Yid anyway?
Like many people here said, keep your eyes in your siddur. What kind of kavana do you all have when your eyes are busy checking out who is frum enough. Your clothes may make you look frum, but when this is what is bothering you, I don’t concider you very ehrlich.
It amazes me what low opinion most of you have of your fellow Jews! I went to the country until my youngest had to go to camp. Then I couldn’t afford to rent a bungallow and to send 2 boys to sleepaway camp. I wasn’t naive about what my husband was doing I TRUSTED him. Remember trust? Yes, there will be some men and some women who will do what they shouldn’t, but if you can’t trust them now, what says you can trust them when you are in the city. A man or woman could always be “working late”. As for women sitting in circles talking lashon hara, do you think that if they were in the city it wouldn’t happen? If a person wants to do bad, the place wouldn’t stop them.
Some of you should maybe learn how to see the better in people. I am by nature very cynical but you guys have low minds. Get your minds out of the gutter! Take care of yourself and don’t go make forums like this into your own “lashon hara circles”
I know cases where a child takes a parent to bais din. It becomes a rift that cannot be healed. One person’s das torah isn’t always another. It’s so sad that we have fallen to this level.
After thinking about the subject, I realize that with some women who don’t dress so tzniyusdic, it’s a matter of frumkeit. With many people-especially I think alot of the people here-tzniyus has also begun to mean not dressing like an Ashkenazi charaidi. Denim-horrors! Colors other than dark blue or black-shikse! Does black twill make you closer to Hashem than pink denim?
Also, like the man who doesn’t always make it to minyan or whose language isn’t appropriate for a frum person, a woman dresses on her “level” of frumkeit. Not to “tease” not to entice but because she doesn’t care about what she feels is YOUR level of tzniyus. I don’t like seeing the women dressed the way they are, but I must tell you that I don’t much care for seeing men not acting like they realize Hashem is watching them when they are in business or on line in a store or driving and double parking and blocking people.
As for me, I do what I think is the way I should act and try not to stick my nose where it doesn’t belong and isn’t wanted. Might be a good idea for others.
Ein Od,
I have no guilty consience to assage. I worry that when my kollel son will leave kollel (soon most likely) he will not be able to support a family because he has learned nothing. I would like him to learn a profession. My husband (no higher education) works over 12 hrs/day. He learns daf yomi. He carries sforim with him in case he has a few minutes in the day to learn. My son says he doesn’t want to work as hard as his father so he can spend more time with his kids. Parnassa is in the hands of the Rebonon Shel Olam but I, personally, don’t think I or my children are on the level of R’ Shimon bar Yechai that we can just expect parnasa to come by itself. Are you?
If what you say about the Rambam is the correct version, are you saying that young men should wait until their money sourse is totally dried up or dead before thinking that JUST MAYBE they need to show some responsability? I’d like to see the yeshivos say “Oh, of course. Take all the time you need to pay what you owe. You’re in kollel? You don’t have to pay.” I’d like to see the grocer say the same.
We have to do like Purim and raise Olam HaZe to Olam HaBa not just look down our noses at those who have their feet in Olam HaZe.
EinOdMilvad, so how do you pay the rent? If your shver is paying the rent, are you saying that HE isn’t a proper frum Yid? Rashi had a vinyard, Rambam was a doctor. Were their priorities ch”v farkrum? And they weren’t even American.
Our yeshiva graduates very often can’t speak or write English correctly. Those children may get entry level jobs, or they might buy a business and make enough parnasa that way, but if you can’t speak or write properly, you will find it much harder to make a descent wage. We aren’t talking about riches but with schar limud for many children (b”H) and the cost of rents and food, a person needs more than an entry level wage. This is not anti-frum.
Keep it simple, You’ve GOT to be kidding!! When I look at the women walking in my neighborhood that aren’t as tzniyus as they should be, I don’t think they have you in mind at all. Most are wearing denim skirts, some longer than you feel is right, some just at their knees. Most are wearing Israeli tichels. Some with…well…more hair than I would show. If you think any of these women are provocative and are “teasing” men then perhaps you should take some lessons in anivus. You men just aren’t the center of everyone’s universe. Sorry.
Thanks for the chuckle, though.
I agree. It always appalled me when I would hear stories of male staff members in a Bais Yaakov type school checking skirt lengths. I’ve heard storieds-urban legends I hope-of rabbis standing at the bottom of a staircase checking to see if the girls were wearing tights or just knee-his.
Men, work on what you can do. Try talking to the young men I see in my neightborhood who are wearing kippas, but have mouths like any public school boy. Leave stangers alone.
Oh and not that it matters, but I also wear long skirts, no slit and no hair showing.
The writer says “who are fine yirei shomayim”. Are you saying that if a bocher (the young man is still a “bachur” even if he isn’t in “the best yeshiva”)is the type that doesn’t go to a learning camp or stay in a non-NY yeshiva he isn’t yirei shamayim? That is pretty elistic. No wonder you don’t beleive in SEED. Those out-of-town, non-black hat types can’t POSSIBLY be worth the time of a 17 year old. My son is a staff member in Camp Bei Kayta. He is required to go to as many sheurim and sedarim as any learning camp. He is also earning a little money.
So what’s your problem? Relizing that not every boy is meant to sit and learn all day? Hashem did creat Zevuan and the TYPE of person that a Zevulan needs to be. Or do you have a problem with boys learning that they can earn some money and not just always take from somebody.
Interesting, many of you complain about Lipa using non-Jewish tunes or genre in his CDs, yet the same people know the non-Jewish singers by name. Hmmm. Sauce for the goose isn’t sauce for the gander?
I loved the new CD, btw. I love Hallilu. It does sound Irish but who said there are no Irish Jews? Many old Chassidish nigunim are from classical music, if anyone wants to go through all Jewish songs.
Leave it alone people. If you like it, buy it. If you don’t, don’t.
I feel bad for you but this is not only in Lakewood. I’m assuming you are a young kollel wife so you are young and probably idealistic. This is reality: In life, you will find some bosses like yours. They might be in Lakewood or in Brooklyn or in Manhattan. They are people who might be nice to socialize with but not to work for. On the other hand, you will find some bosses in Lakewood, Brooklyn or Manhattan or any other place who are nice people who realize that we are in this world to do what will give the Rebonon Shel Olam nachas. You don’t like this job? Find another one and ask about the boss before you take the job. My husband has had both kinds of bosses. When he was looking for a job this time, he spent time asking about the boss just as one would ask about a shiduch (but we didn’t care about the tablecloths). He is now very happy with his job.
Good luck.
“Where is the line drawn? Why is it not considered judgemetal to tell your kids to keep shabbos or kosher?”
Matesyahu 23, what about people who use the various Brooklyn eruvim and those who don’t? Should the “Don’ts” stand on the street and scream at the “does”? Oh, excuse me, some already do and do you think that works?
What about those who use hechsherim that others don’t? Again, should the yelling start?
I think everyone should take a good look at themselves and fix what needs to be. Take care of your families and see that they look/eat/do what is right.
Tzniyus is very important but by standing on a street corner yelling or in a forum like this yelling, you will not accomplish any thing.
BTW, since we are talking about Nashim, what about ANOSHIM who are loud on the streets, or bochrim who sneak into alleys of homes near their yeshiva to smoke? How lovely and frum they look. How about anoshim who block driveways or other cars when they are rushing to “chap” a minyan? What about…I could go on and on but at least they are dressed properly in black and white.
OOOOHH! I forgot! We are talking about the problem with those horrible Nashim now! Sorry. I guess we have to refer to coment #1.