Hakatan- you are seriously making me doubt your objective halachic approach now that you are aware of the above info.

Furthermore, the STATE OF ISRAEL “the medina”- although started by many tinok shenishba jews (who were zionists with wrong hahskafos) and some charedim who were li’shem shamayim- DOES NOT EQUAL ZIONISM. ZIONISM IS A BELEIF SYSTEM WHICH IS WRONG ACCORDING TO ALL. THE STATE IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT A VIOLATION OF OATHS ACCORDING TO ALL – RATHER TO SOME IT WAS- AND MOST IT WAS NOT.

I specifically asked Hagaon R’ Elya Weintraub of Bnei Brak, ( one of the Gedolei Hador who was against zionsim) if it was muttar to make a state -to which the Rav replied the Satmar Rav held it was a problem and Rav Moshe did not. The question was not would the state be created because of the BD of Klal Yisrael’s decision – rather it was whether or not it was muttar to make a state. Hakatan please don’t make things up about stories you know nothing about – you are simply embarrassing yourself.

Either way, The Moetzes (BD of Klal Yisrael) voted in favor of a state just without accepting smaller EY borders and that we should make state frum. They could not have voted this way if the 3 oaths would be violated, The whole discussion was in reference to the Permission given by the British – who ultimately gave their reshus to the majority UN vote.

The arabs have nothing to do with it — it was not their land it was the british’s land. They( the british) abstained so as to appear not to take sides, but from a pure legal and halacik perspective left the decision to the UN in the first place – so when the UN voted in favor- the British are to be considered as voting in favor.

You write :”Contrary to your wishes, there simply is no “eilu viEilu” by Zionism and the State of Israel. “

My response to you – is of course there is NO eilu vieliu by zionsim – it is wrong for all. The state- to be formed without violating oaths was ,however, eilu vieilu -but majority paskened not to assur.

Lastly , as per haba lihargacha and vi’chai bahem – it was pikuach nefesh not to make a state- because otherwise – the arabs would have tried to kill us all anyways – for example the Mufti of Jerusalem worked with hitler himself. So you see we would have lost lives regardless of what happened – at least this way al pi teva we would have a fighting chance to survive and constituted a milchemes mitzvah defensive battle.

OPEN YOUR EYES

Hakatan and others-

This statement was recorded in Hapardes, a rabbinic journal, in 1937 regarding the debate amongst gedolim about whether or not it would be muttar to make a jewish state or not. (Hapardes volume 11, Issue 7, October 1937), 75 years ago, reprinted in Mishpacha Issue 179, 6 Cheshvan 5768, October 17,2007 Page 26)

“On Sunday, 16 Elul, the great Torah leaders discussed the question of a Jewish State, and reached the greatly anticipated decision of the congress. It was a stormy assembly, attended by the Rebbes of Gur, Ghorkov, Boyan, Sadigura, and the great Torah scholars members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah (Rabbinical Council). A great battle took place, over seven hours, with struggles about every minute detail of the decision.

“Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg of Antwerp, and rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a Jewish State on either side of the Jordan River EVEN if it were established as a religious state, because such a regime would be a form of heresy in our faith in the belief in the coming of the Mashiach and especially since this little Jewish State would be built on heresy and desecration of the Name of G-d.

“Arguing against them were the Rebbes of Boyan and Sadigura. Rabbi Tzirelson, the president of the congress, Rabbi [Aharon] Lewin of Reisha [the head of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah] and Rabbi Sorotzkin, [who said that] it is possible to agree, according to the laws of the Torah, to the establishment of a Jewish State in a portion of the Eretz Yisael without denying the belief in the coming of redeemer.

Those in favor won the vote!

So you see – there were many gedolim who held it would be ok according to the torah–but we should try to make it frum- which we still do today, for all tinok shenishba jews we try and promote kiruv- and eventually whether they choose to or not- we will be majority(BIRTH RATE STATS) and it will be a frum state elected democratically from an officially neutral democratic state that reflects the will of the majority

A pic of knessia can be found here herhttp://meashearim.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/image014.png

hakatan- you need to understand that: 1)Secular Zionism as is generally defined today – is wrong and against the Torah according to all Poskim. It is unfathomable that concepts such as the wanting to be like the other nations in every way etc -is the Jewish peoples true objective. Rather, we are to be an ohr la’goyim/mamleches kohanim vi’goy kadosh- that maintains its differences – “am li’vadad yishkon”. WE are to strike a balance- between being a nation apart from all the others that also interacts with and leads the world toward Kovod Shamayim.

2) Even so – you equate the state – an officially democratic and neutral state-which is neither frum or non-frum – run by a majority of tinok shenishba jews-With a signifcant charedi population –which in the future will take over the govt by sheer numbers- as being EQUAL To Zionsim. This logic is untenable— Zionism in its secular conception is wrong and against the hashakafas haTorah– BUT the democratic neutral state, is an independent halachik question over which gedolim were divided based on various issues– however many Gedolim took a more lenient approach as explained in previous posts and by Hashgachas Hashem the state came about.

3) You seem to be under the assumption that had we not declared a state in 1948 with permission of UN(binding all nations to resolution) — the Arabs would have let us just live there and we would just look down and take any punches that arose– you are so wrong – the arabs were out for jewish blood even during the holocaust period making deals and meeting with Hitler — and had the allied forces not beaten the german forces- Israel would have been taken over and all jews executed with the help of our arab neighbors- This is documented fact. So when you say it was pikuach nefesh to declare state- No- it was Pikuach nefesh not to declare state and give us a fighting chance al pi teva to survive after reeling from the holocaust. You see, the world turned a blind eye to this destruction. Lastly, while the oaths do not allow us to rebel against nations we also have a principal of HABA LI’HARGICHA HASHKEM LI’HARGO and VI’CHAI BA’HEM which would mandate we do not die as sheep to the slaughter. While you may want to make the case the BECAUSE of the state NOW everyone is against the jews-this is untrue- they have always been against us — just look in the years earlier during holocaust – without the state- where world let us die on a mass scale for too long-. Many would argue that nonjews( as a whole )generally were against the jews anyways(look at history) – and the state makes no difference – and in fact does the opposite- the idea that israel has nukes, army, elite units who take care of the shadow targets (with Hashem’s help) help actually to dissuade larger scale attacks and murders of jewish people.

r of berlin- Saying that the oaths were only aggadic will only further entrench the overall view of those against state –they will then quote you sources like igeres teiman of rambam, maharal, selected sources etc..

you will never win with them by claiming: 1) it is aggadata (even if not brought down in traditionally well known codes of law but rather other sources) 2) they broke oaths so we will beak ours 3) oaths were only for 1000 yrs etc…

The way to win the argument is to say- of course the oaths are valid but they just don’t apply here – because the binding ruling nations gave permission, state was declared bishalom, No National force/ No National rebellion(because the was declared with reshus and only afterword (the next day) did we fight a defensive war to protect our lives), no dechikas haketz in last geula period because each day is the zman geula can come, no inherent unfrum state but rather neutral democratic state, unfortunate tinok shenishba( non intentional Jew) involvement in govt at current time which will change in future – then invoke the Gedolim card – ie majority voted in favor, as well as ohr sameach ( R” M.S. Mdvinsk), and at the very least its eilu vi’eilu.

By the Hakatan -i still want a response to my last post before this one- in detail if you would

Hakatan- you need to understand a few things 1) The State of Israel, which by its democratic nature is neutral- is in essence neither a frum govt state nor non-frum govt state- it is just a reflection of the current majority – which can and (in the Charedim’s case -will) change in the future. The state was founded not only by nonreligious jews then- who made up the majority of the founders and who would have the din of tinokes shenishbu- (I.E. not intentional sinners)- but also frum rabbanim and Jews. 2) ZIONISM DOES NOT EQUAL THE JEWISH STATE- secular zionism on its own had the wrong views but with what they thought were the right intentions for jewish survival(hence tinok shenishba) -but the state on its own which is officially democratic and neutral is a separate halachic issue which was up for debate -and then paskened one way to permit it -followed up by Rav MOshe (for whatever reasons held). 3) The way to win any debate with well meaning Jews like yourself is to pull what i like to call the Gedolim card- you say Gedolim were against it – and i say thats not entirely true-some were agaisnt but majority were in favor – and we go after the majority (see ritva eiruvin 13 a and the midrash quoted there). Don’t sidestep this fact- deal with it-. The question is how to make it go from majority non religious rule in a neutral state to religiously valued jewish state. Also — see Rav Dessler ( i believe its volume 3. ) who states anyone can clearly see the hashgacha of Hashem in EY post the holocaust – do not turn a blind eye.

Either way acc. to the prinicpal of hakaras hatov based on the Torah’s statements regarding giving thinks to MItzrayim, despite their physical and religious persecution- you must, as much as you might hate to admit it – give thanks not only to IDF soliders but even to the medina even if its completely bad in your view – for it would be no less than mitzrayim. But for me , who clearly recognizes the service of IDF and the support of state in general however mild to Torah instituions for decades -would require hakaras hatov. To not admit this would make you a kafui tov ( a denier of thanks). Please respond in yes or no format if you have hakaras hatov-1) for IDF(protectors of Jews) 2) and If you have hakaras hatov for the medinah itself ,even if in your view you feel it is A”Z, just as mitrayim was A”Z and the Torah requires of us some level of hakaras hatov.

dass yochid- you still so not understand- As per above- no shavua or oath was violated due to permission given by British>UN 1)-was not Bichoma/yad chazakah, 2)not rebellion against nation if they themselves legally allowed it 3) No dechikas haketz in last geula period. NOW, the state of Israel is by its nature a democratic state -meaning it is in principal religiously neutral and depending on who is in the majority of govt. so will be its policies. In the beg. it was predominately non religious- although, many are misinformed- beacuse there were recognized Rabbanim who lead the declaration as well with the hope that due to its inherent nuetrality of the state and the potential influence and growth on state of religious values – it would turn this democratically neutral state into a frum one– see stats which show that if the religious keep up birth rate they will be govt majority in decades to come and will uphold all delineated principles. MY POINT IS twofold- one- the shavuos are unrelated to the states religiousity. two- the state due to its democratically neutral nature – cannot be classified as frum or non frum but rather the will of the people of each cycle reflected in govt. and at times may be primarily frum or not primarily frum. Plus, there were many religious Jews and Rabbanim who did helped found the state as well – so even founding was not entirely non religious. Plus, although there were anti frum zionists there were also charedi frum people there as well in govt. Plus, if you look at history you will learn that although many in the beg of state were not frum- many still respected the Torah in principal – for example – when one of Israel’s PM’s was asked how you justify state they picked up a bible. The Israeli Flag of blue and white represents techeles and the two blue lines with magen david in middle represent Klal Yisrael passing through the Yam SUf to EY ( i am not making this up -look at the State’s records on this point). Plus in any case most of these non frum jews would be classified as tinok shenshbas(children enslaved by lack of religious education into certain ideals) and would have the status of a non meizid ( not intential jew ) in relation to the states initial frum keit. so you have a neutral state (not frum or non frum), a lot of tinkos shenishbu( not intentional and not guilty people), and open frum rabbis and jews supporting its founding so – i dont see why even acc to formulation of above Moetzes decision this would be considered anti frum if its democratic and can also be frum.

Hakatan – i hope you will read these words very carefully- The midrash states that there are 49 ways to purify and 49 ways to impurify ( 49 to allow ,49 to prohibit) any issue in the Torah – and it is given to the majority of leaders of each generation to decide in which direction the psak will ultimately go (see Ritva Eiruvin 13 — on eilu v’eilu). I do not disagree that the Satmar Rav , Rav Elchanon, R, Aharon Kotler and others prohibited any form of state before mashiach –HOWEVER- the Majority on the B”D of Klal Yisrael (as the Brisker Rav himself stated) voted against this opinion and in favor of state with no violation of any oaths if given with permission , proper boundaries, and eventual religiosity of state etc.. Furthermore , R’ Meir Simcha (Meshech Chochma) agreed to this position as well as Rav Moshe, who was considered the Posek Hador even among Gedolim. The RIGHT to make state based on oath related issues has NOTHING to do with the individual or communal religiosity of the founders of that state – and deals only with the ruling nations viewpoint. In regards to Pikuach Nefesh – many would argue that before the state- as in the time of the Holocaust- we already were targeted as we always have been- and now at least we have an opportunity to defend ourselves (haba lihargicha hashkem lihargo)The Jews did not take Yerushalyim just because — they took it as is common in any defensive battle to push back the enemies in order to ensure safety. Now in relation to dechikas haketz (which is one of 6 oaths not 3 by the way) see Hagoan Rav Yechezkal Abramsky (the chazon Yechezkel)on parshus vayigash (46;4) who states that perhaps while in other galus periods such as galus mitzrayim and galus bavel Hashem prescribed as a set time for the galus – so that if we were to try to end it earlier (as the Bnei Efraim did and were punished for that effort) – it would not be allowed — By the Galus Hachrona – where the end was not prescribed and revealed by Hashem – every day is the zman “kol yom zmano hu” -and therefore no issue currently of dechikas haketz . He further states that “yaalu bichoma” remains but that it refers to going to EY bederech milchama – but Jews can go up Bi’shalom in peace. Lastly, as per the reshus of ruling authorities of land of israel at the time i.e. THE UN binding majority vote allowed them to form state bi’shalom. ONLY later on did Arabs attack (of which they might have done anyways) and we then as the Torah permits us -defended ourselves and by siyyata dishmaya survived.

I am not saying that Rabbanim are happy that the state is primarily run by non religious jews – however the issue of whether that actual state building itself was kefira- still stands as mutar- due to a variety of reasons including the reshus and permission of the previous governing nations and authorities – allowed by a majority of Gedolim including Rav Moshe who was a gadol among gedolim. The question Hagoan Harav R’ Elya Weintraub of Bnei Brak asked Rav Moshe was most likely post the state and yet it was condoned. Furthermore- while many non religious jews helped found the state their were rabbanim as well who contributed to its founding and were even on the platform at the declaration. Plus as per the Brisker RAv, who was against the state- he said to his sons – now that the MOetzes Gedolei HAtorah of AGudas Yisroel( of 1937 pre war europe) voted in favor it will happen. The Brisker Rav knew that once that decsion was made- Hashem would inevitably create the state. Lastly, again the mashal of hakaras hatov to Mitzrayim comes to mind – for even if you are not willing to due the required historical research as to the diversity of Gedolim’s rulings on this matter – there is no way that mitzrayim who killed us , phyically and spiritually – is any worse than israel who for decades have allowed Torah students to learn in addition to financial support-as well as who provided the protection of the people by the IDF (with HAshem’s help of course) – we should certainly have hakaras hatov even to the state while at the same time stand up for our religious values and hopefully in mutual respect – change the country’s views for the better

I one hundred percent agree- it goes both ways– Torah helps protect us with its merit, and yet Hishtadlus (in this case the IDF) is also necessary and should therefore be graciously and publicly commended for its sacrifice.

I am just making the Olam aware of this awesome organization and their conference I read about. I saw them in a bunch of the frum papers and magazines and was genuinely impressed.

By the way the price is 125 dollars – and therefore must be very subsidized given that conferences like this typically costs a lot more especially since this venue is at the Hyatt and includes a catered lunch.

I have never seen anyone offer this many sessions about 18+ on business-related topics geared to an audience of frum women as well as having Rabbonim available for business halacha questions.

That is why I wanted to spread the word and help the tzibbur who in today’s economy are really struggling financially.