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Betnzy: the only way to determine if a hechsher meets your standards is to call up those behind the hechsher and find out what their standards are.

It is not a misnomer to say that Kashrus us a business. It is a booming business. companies see “value” in placingkashrus symbols on products even where the symbol says nothing about the actual kashrus of the product. Dont believe me? Call up the OU (I’m not picking on them, but they have a website listing all sorts of contact information for kashrus related questions)and ask them what their symbol on a container of milk means to a kosher consumer. When you get the answer, then ask them, “then why put it there?”. You will see, it is a business. It is a kashrus symbol, but also a marketing symbol.

“oomis1105 is misquoting the gemara in eruvin 42b, it does not say that Bruria’s claim was that R’ Yossi haGlili was hypocritical but rather that the Chazal say not to speak excessively with women. It is true for everyone.”

I assume this is a reference to the Mishna in Avos “at tarbe sicha in isha…..”. It is noteworthy to see how the words “sicha” and “dibbur” are interpreted by chazal.

The dodgers? Those tight uniform pants arent very tzniyus 🙂

UJM: Your arguments are getting sillier and siller. Whats next, a made up letter from the steipler Z”l stating that there is a chiyuv to wear a jacket for davening?

Zalman. Call it what you want. If it would be called “mentchlech” would that make it any better? Why is calling it chivalry making it worse?

Dont call it Chivalry. Call it decency. Is a man on a date nothing more than a taxi driver, to drop off his fare at the curb and drive away? Should he perhaps yell from the car, “good night”? Should he sit in the car like a bus monitor waiting for the door to open and she gets inside? the couple has spent the last 3-4 hours talking about who knows what, suddenly it is not tznius to walk the girl to the front door, say thank you it was a pleasant evening and good night?

If it is not tzniusdik to walk a girl to her front door, after spending 3-4 hours talking in a darkened lounge, walking in the park (where there may be issues of yichud) then perhaps sit ins would be more appropriate with parents sitting in the next room?

Pool and pool halls have a certain stigma attached to them because of the imafe that comes to mind when it is mentioned. There are many dignified Billiard rooms one can attend. A hotel lounge is essentially a dignified bar.

Instead of saying stupid things like ” this is assur, not tznius”, this is assur not “torahdik”, this is muttar because it is appropriate think about the situation. Not every hotel lobby/lounge is appropiate and not every Billiard room/pool hall is inappropiate.

I believe I would be labeled a “yeshiva type”…. this is my opinion and I speak for nobody but myself.

I am, B”H, married for 15+ years, so it has been while since I’ve been on a date, but here goes.

1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates

I took girls bowling and to shoot pool, if they were agreeable to do so. I didnt think there was anything wrong with it then, nor do I think there is anything with it now. It depends WHERE you go to engage in these activities.

2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?

If I saw the girl was wearing a nice piece of jewelry, I would comment, if I felt it appropriate at the time. If she was wearing an unusual article of clothing, for example a top with a “different” pattern, I would have commented on the pattern if it fit into the conversation.

3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date

I always thought it was considered good manners. I think it is good manners to to walk ANYONE out of a car.

4) sharing a portion of food when eating out

I wouldnt share food with anyone (well, perhaps my wife and kids), I dont think it is good hygiene (in fact I think it is disgusting, but just a personal feeling). If you meant, ordering a dish and splitting it PRIOR to eating, thats something else entirely. Why not?

5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home ?

Thats like asking, is it ever allowed to insult someone. Instead of being asked to be taken home, I have no problem with either a boy or a girl stating that they are feeling a bit tired and would like t be taken home/go home shortly. It is probably better to utter a little white lie than to humiliate someone by saying “take me home”.

Jent: Lets assume the seat WAS paid for. There are ways to talk to people regardless of how right you may be or how wrong they may be. There are also lessons that can be taught regardless of how right or how wrong someone may be.

Regarding “paid” seats. How many shuls today actually have such a thing? I am not talking about the Yomim Noraaim where shuls assign seating.

I checked the Mishna Berurah. He is definitely not in favor of looking at girls, even if they are davening. Thats why we have a mechitza in shul.

I like to judge favorable wherever possible, but in this instance, the conclusion I draw is that “yeshiva guy” is uncomfortable by the davening done by these girls. Perhaps it bothers him that a girl is davening and he is reading the times. Perhaps it bothers him that she is davening and he is staring at the walls. Perhaps it bothers him that she is davening slowly despite the place she finds herself and he mumbles through davening in a comfortable shul.

Whatever is bothering “yeshiva guy”, perhaps he might be best served to stick his nose into a sefer and not worry about what the girls are doing 🙂

I’m sure there is a reliable Posek in the real world who can answer this question. Of course, this being cyberspace, everyone will have an opinion, informed or otherwise.

UJM: The Mishne Berurah you cite does NOT say what you claim it does. Let me rephrase that. If you believe that you MUST wear a hat and a jacket for davening, then I can see where it can be shoe horned into the words of the Mishne Berurah. However, an honest reading/teitch of the Mishna Berurah does not lead me to the conclusion you keep claiming is paskened lihalacha by the Mishne Berurah.

Back to the original topic: lgbg, would you like to devote your time to getting those dates for all those boys and girls? I believe that is exactly what Joe Schmo is pointing out.

I suppose it is possible to determine if it is a Shomer Shabbos store by going to the adresses (there are several) for the store listed on the BBB of NY website.

“A newlywed, who’s wife is pregnant and in labor, is he an exception?”

Leave it on vibrate.

“A Rabbi who needs to be available to answer sheilos, is he an exception?”

During davening? Someone from the back of the shul is going to call him up tell him he forgot yaleh veyavo and ask what to do?

“A mashgiach who must be available for kashrus reasons… is he an exception?”

During davening? What, the Rav must be available for the kiddush club during davening in case shailos come up?

“I can find many many exceptions”

All as silly as these?

“I still feel that those exceptional people should put their phones on vibrate mode,”

I am an exceptional person. I always turn my cell phone off, but maybe I will keep it on vibrate now.

“but I am firmly against the posting of ‘no cell phones allowed’ on shuls, and I feel it is against halacha.”

No cell phones, refer to their use, not that you cant bring one across the threshold.

“I know many Rabbanim who have cell phones in shul”

How many of those Rabbonim take phone calls during davening?

“and many shuls that have hard wired phones inside the Bais HaMedrash for people to use”

INSIDE the bais medrash? That I find hard to believe. Talking on the phone, whether during davening or while people are learning is distruptive, no matter how exceptional the person may be.

Joseph. You are wrong. The MB does not pasken “one must wear a jacket for davening”. The Rambam lists things that invalidate tefilla. An uncovered head is one of them. He wasnt reffering to a hat. BTW the Rambam didnt own a hat. Neither did the Ben Ish Chai. Rav Saadiah Gaon. They lived in an area where nice silk turbans were the norm. I dont see sefardim coming to shul with turbans. Are they all violating a halacha? Please reread the mishne berura.

Leave it on vibrate all the time? Come on. Half the enjoyment of owning a cell phone for some people, is making sure everyone hears the loud obnoxious song they are using for a ringtone!

Stealing another employee? If he paid more, the employee has every right to accept the position. in america employment is “at will”. Both sides can break a relationship ith no reason given. Of course it is mentchlech to tell an employer that you are considering leaving, especially if it is because of money. Perhaps you will be offered the same amount, or more, to stay. If not, then the current employer has no right to make you stay on.

At maariv tonight, there were some men wearing a jacket, hat and tie. These were mostly the men who wear a jacket and tie to work all day. The added garment fr tefillah, probably yheir hat. If they wear their hat to work too? I’m not so sure.

There were men wearing a jacket and tie, but no hat. There were those wearing a jacket no tie, no hat. There were some wearing a jacket and hat, but had their shirts (button down) untucked. Others had their shirts neatly tucked in and wore no, hat or jacket.

Who davened a better and more meaningful tefilla? That is for hashem to determine, not us. To all those who feel that those who dont wear a hat and/or a jacket are davening while improperly dressed, then dont dress that way. Stop the silly postings about “against halacha”, “they are wrong” and “it is a terrible thing”.

It should be noted that there are poskim who write that because it is the “minhag” of certain non jews to REMOVE their hats when entering their places of worship, yidden should bidavka wear their hats, especially because the haskallah started the same practice. Not all yidden lived in Catholic countries or lived among maskilim who adopted this practice, hence the “widespread” custom of wearing hats is nowhere near universal. The shulchan aruch is clear about the guidelines for dress while davening. No specific article of clothing is listed as a requirement. Not a hat, not a jacket , not a spudik or a kapata, not even a turban or caftan.

Does anyone know if they found those who set them up?

You misunderstood my use of the word “forget”. I didnt mean it should be understodd that it slipped their mind to do so. I meant that the idea of “Da lifnei Mi Ata Omed” is not on peoples mind. Because people “forget” where they are, they do these things. Do you belive someone would let loose with a loud tekiya into a tissue if he was lihavdil at a White House dinner? Why is it ok during davening? The same “forgetfulness” dictates that people are not aware that phones shold be off, emails can wait and that noses can be blown at ridiculous decibel levels.

People “forget” to put away seforim for the same reason they double park their car, cut ahead in line, interuppt someone …….

They are thinking about themself and nobody else. If they would have other people in mind, they wouldl realize that their actions have an impact on other people, and if they cared about those other people, would act in a way that positively impacted those other people.

I respectfully disagree. People “forget” where they are when they are in shul and dont turn off their cell phones. I doubt anyone would forget to turn off their ringer if lihavdil they had a meeting with the president. Perhaps there should be signs that remind people not to blow their nose really loud so that it distrubs people during davening? It is just as annoying and quite frankly even less mentchlekeit and I assure you nobody would let loose with a loud “tekiyah” during an audience with lihavdel, the president. It sounds funny, but the fact remains: Da Lifnei Mi Ata Omed. If you know this, then you wont forget to take care of your phone or anything else that distrubs the davening. Yours as well as others.

Why was the big Tznius gathering in Lakewood gievn by Rabbonim to men? Wouldnt it have had a greater impact on women if respected “rebetzins” would have spoken to women about the hashkafos behind tznius?

I thought the single most negative side effect of the “bungalow colony movement” is that people go to shul in crocs and dont bring along their hat this causes their kids not to get accepted into the school of their choice if they live in Lakewood.