Teen, before I respond, please allow me to apologize in advance if something in here rubs you the wrong way. I hope that it doesn’t, though. I thought it through carefully and edited it, but I’m not Mr. “Emotional intelligence”- I’m more of an intellectual debater.

Teen, how do you define “good person”? Many liberals believe they are more compassionate that conservatives (and a lot of them are), and will defend men deserving of death from being killed due to compassion. Yet, much of abortion today is straight-up infanticide according to all rational thinking- killing innocent babies who were born already because they inconvenience the mother. This is good? This is murder of the most innocent humans on earth- little babies, while the same people will defend terrorists and murderers. They believe they are good, but clearly something is wrong.

We humans are not machines. We have emotions and desires that corrupt our thinking and prevent rational logical thought. You have already identified the source for your beliefs, one that I completely share with you- laziness, or ADD as you mentioned in another post. When I was in 6th grade, davening mussaf shemona hesrei on Yom Kippur, the thought “who said Hashem really exists?” crept into my head at this time. Throughout, high school, I was always bothered by such questions like “Why did the rabbanan makes our lives so hard? Isn’t the Torah good enough?” and other such questions. I realize now that while I needed to deal with the questions, the source was laziness- it’s easier to be non-frum than frum. Once I dealt with the questions as best I could, it was easier overcoming my nature. I still struggle with it, but it’s part of being human.

Being non-frum is the path of least resistance. However, the Torah says that one who does not do the mitzvos will get punished (2nd paragraph of Krias shma). Once you are a believer, then the 2nd paragraph of shma spells it out. Hashem determines who is a good person, and HE determined that a good person is one who does the Mitzvos. As the first paragraph of mesilas yesharim says, Hashem created the world to bestow kindness upon us. However, this kindness can only be fully achieved in olam haba. The way to earn it is through torah and mitzvos. If you would tell you parents “Why do I need to work? I’ll just sit around and be a good person”, the answer is that without work, you can’t feed your head, and you can’t afford shelter, and you die. So if you want to know why you have to do mitzvos, it’s because there is no such thing as being a good person without them.

That said, Hashem understands everyone’s nature. someone who suffers from innate laziness or ADD has a much harder time getting up for minyan than someone who doesn’t. Someone with ADD will never be the masmid that someone who doesn’t suffer will be. As long as that guy does his best, Hashem has no taanos, even if the “velt” doesn’t understand.

As for your parents’ input into your life, they understand this. When I make sure my kid doesn’t play with fire or doesn’t cross the street on his own, he chafes at these restrictions. Why can’t he determine his own life? The answer is that he doesn’t fully comprehend the consequences of his actions. If I let my kid do what he wants, he will end up really hurting himself. Should I abrogate my responsibilities as parent because it interferes with my child’s lifestyle?

Again, my apologies if any of this didn’t come across in the manner that i meant it to be understood in.

Teen, can you please give an example of your beliefs that you want others to adopt, and why it is that you believe others should adopt them?

True story. A friend of mine was dating a girl who was a baalas teshuva. He decided to take her ice skating, since he had a bit of shaychus and wanted to show off. Then the girl started showing off and really put on a floor show (disclaimer- I’m not endorsing this behavior as fitting within the boundaries of tznius). Turns out the girl used to be a professional skater. Doh!

It could be the girl is doing it because she thinks that’s what the guys want.

The passuk in Bereishis says, according to the meforshim, that man and woman were originally created as one entity and then separated. Each is a half of a whole. Man has chochma yeseira, woman has bina yeseira. Tough to say any half is inferior to the other. while the man is supposed to be the dominant role, That doesn’t imply actual inferiority. A Mamzer talmid chochom is better than a kohen gadol am haaretz, even though the Kohen Gadol gets more kavod and is viewed on a higher level. A Yisroel has the same “olam haba” potential as a Kohen. A Beinoni can earn the same olam haba as an ilui, even though the ilui gets more kavod, better shidduchim, and better positions. Olam haba has nothing to do with the roles of olam hazeh.

I’m not saying there is a better system. The chassidish system is breaking down, the litvish system is breaking down, and the MO system is breaking down. Maybe it’s the result of living in a society so focused on gashmius that nobody is ever satisfied with what they have, and they’re always looking for “something better”. Mussar for everyone and a sense of realism would help.

Cherrybim, I thank you for your kind words.

Famous joke, perhaps a nit shein:

Q- What’s the difference between a goseis and a Lakewood guy?

A- the goseis goes from life support to the freezer, while the Lakewood guy goes from the freezer to life support!

ujm, I don’t know why they stopped. Probably niskatnu hadoros. The gemara also says that real talmidei chachamim had to bring an am ha’aretz with them when they got engaged, to recognize the girl for a year later when they did nisuin.

The gemara in Taanis mentions that on tu be’av, all the girls of Yerushalayim would put on plain white dresses and dance in the orchards. The pretty girls would emphasize their beauty, the meyuchas ones would emphasize their yichus, and the ones with neither would say “sheker hachein”. So clearly people used to judge the prospective shidduch based on looks.

NCSY stands for “Negiah can save Yiddishkeit”.

Another thing I learned the hard way:

Never tell the “What does NCSY stand for?” joke to someone who works for NCSY…

A completely unconfirmed story circulating in yeshivas is that one guy was dating a girl fresh from seminary. The guy made a favorable comment about a certain famous athlete (let’s assume Michael Jordan for now). The girl said, “Rebbetzin xxxx said that when we say ‘shelo asani goy’, we mean even people like Michael Jordan”. Whereupon the guy responded, “And MY Rebbe told me that when we say ‘shelo asani isha’, we mean even women like Rebbetzin xxxx!”

I dated a few girls from Washington Heights. In Washington Heights, you basically had to wait your turn for the privilege of pulling over at a hydrant. Brooklyn’s like that too in many places. My father was fond of huge, hulking behemoths that just don’t park well.

I once had a prospective father-in-law give me a very intrusive farher on the first date. I was nervous enough as is on first dates, and it’s frankly tough to be in the sugya when you’re in the parsha.

I had 2 dates where the girl wanted to visit Barnes and Noble. Taking me to a store like that is like taking an alkie to a bar. It’s tough to carry on a good conversation when you would rather just read.

(Note to moderator- feel free to edit or remove the following story if I didn’t kasher it enough, or if it’s a “kli cheres” that just can’t be kashered.)

I had one girl I dated who wanted to go to Barnes and Noble. It was her choice for the date. She was clearly frummer than her father. As we’re leaving, her father asks her where we’re going. she tells him the mall. He suggests visiting a certain gesheft in the mall that is not for Bnei Torah to visit. The girl was mortified by her father’s off-color remark, and she buried her face in her hands long enough for me to get my poker face back on and pretend I didn’t hear it. I was DUMPED!anyway.

An open book, a conversation means flow of chatter. If the girl is going out of her way to kill any conversations, then the date just won’t work.

A couple of postscripts:

1. I spoke to someone who read through Rav Dovid Cohen’s book on Yiddish. It was originally a part of a larger work of drashos and aggadah. It’s not meant as a psak. One example he brings is the pejorative “shlemiel”. Rav Dovid cohen says it’s from Shloomiel ben Tzurishaddai, the one nasi who can’t have his korbon laining during chanukah fall out on shabbos. So if you call someone a shlemiel, are you yotzei Talmud torah, or are you violating mechaneh sheim lechaveiro? And are you yotzei learning if you have no kavvanah for it?

Rabbi Blech says it’s called Mamalashon because the tatteloshon was loshon hakodesh- the Men spoke Hebrew, the women spoke Yiddish or Judeo-German.

I still am waiting for the Mekor of the Chassam Sofer, because Reb Moshe does to disagree.

Here are the promised Igros Moshes. They are not the exact one quoted in the Jewish Observer, but they say the same points. So I view myself as having been mekeyeim my word.

The first one is in Orach Chaim 5, 10. It’s a further elaboration of the Jewish names thing.

1. French Rabbis taught in French. Spanish Rabbis taught in Spanish. Arab-area rabbis taught in Arabic. That’s why we find names in the Rivash like “Vidal”, “vivente”, etc foreign ways of saying “Chaim”.

2. The Rambam wrote his Moreh Nevuchim and Peirush al hamishnayos in Arabic (later translated by Ibn Tobbun), the common tongue of his day. He wrote his Mishneh torah-yad chazakah in Loshon Hakodesh (lashon hamishna dialect)because he didn’t want to depart from the lashon hamishna.

3. German rabbis (ie most of the baalei tosfos) wrote in loshon Hakodesh but taught their talmidim using German. Elsewhere he explains this as because in Ashkenaz they all knew loshon hakodesh. So teaching in the vernacular is a minhag hakadmonim.

4. He then offers a theory why Loshon Ashkenaz, ie German (albeit modified) became the language of all Jews, even in Poland and Hungary. He says that we see in Parshas noach the possuk of “Yaft elo-him LeYefes veyishkon be’ahalei Shem”. So Ashkenaz being a son of Yefes, his language became the “mamaloshon”.

5. He does NOT, however, ascribe any kedusha to Yiddish. He goes out of his way to point out that when the Jews first started adopting German names, undoubtedly the rabbonim protested. Once the names became fully accepted, the Rabbonim stopped protesting. But names like “Leib”, “Anshel”, etc aren’t holier than Leo or Harold. The only difference is that the German Yiddish names have already passed the point of no return. Giving an English name is a davar meguneh, but it’s muttar.One shouldn’t do it though. But there is no reason in halacha to be mechaleik between yiddish and english in terms of Gittin, and there is no halachic nafka mina between Yiddish and English. both are the lashon chol of their respective places.

6. This probably shouldn’t be too publicized, but Hebrew names like Aryeh, Zev and Dov aren’t holy either, as not mentioned as names in the possuk. (Actually, Zev is mentioned in Yehoshua I believe, but not as a Jewish name). So they’re no more Jewish then Leib, Ber, Herschel, etc. Names from the pesukim are holy.

7. He then mentions his teretz as to why the Chazal make a big deal about the Jews in mitzrayim keeping their names and language, but the Jews in golus clearly did not. He says that this hakpada was only before mattan torah, when the Jews didn’t have any mitzvos to distinguish themselves.

We now flip to the second half of this volume of the igros to Yoreh Deah 4, 35.

The main point of learning is to have understanding of what you’re learning, not to turn pages and cover ground. It should be lilmod al menas laasos, which cannot happen if you don’t understand. If learning in Yiddish holds you back from full understanding, then it is pashut that one should not learn in Yiddish. This explains why the minhag hakadmonim was to teach in the vernacular- because the ikkar was the havana.

The final Iggeres on our tour is YD 4, 38. Very long piece. Fascinating halachos on what can and cannot be translated to English.

1. He begins by stating that any sefer that doesn’t fully explain the reason behind it does not have the same authority as one that does, which is why the Igros Moshe always wrote the reason. He has a proof from the Gemara of nimuko imo, where they explain that rabbi Yose could always provide a full explanation for his psak.

2. He then continues with a long discourse on writing in English, and what sefarim can and cannot be written in English. I get the feeling he would argue on Rabbi belsky’s publishing of his psakim in English, but I’m sure rabbi Belsky explains why he did it that way. Either way, he says that there is no issur in publishing torah and speaking in the vernacular, like he said in the piece quoted above.

3. At one point, he refers to Lashon Hakodesh as “ivris”. I’m not going to hang tilei tilim of halachos on one word, but it was interesting.

______________________________________

“Chashmal” is a major perversion of Ben-Yehuda. I’m trying to remember what my Hebrew-speaking chareidi cousins did when they referred to electricity. But when I was in Eretz yisroel, I communicated with various gedolim in Hebrew. One doesn;t have to speak words like “branja” and “jorba”. I saw something on the maharil diskin that he changed the language of yerushalayim from Lashon Hakodesh to Yiddish once the secular “ivrit” folks moved in, to avoid people being swept up in the secular ideology. But lashon hakodesh was viable beforehand. could still be viable now. mishna brurah in siman 85 says that one can think about divrei chol in the bathroom in Lashon Hakodesh. I will say that Rav Moshe Sternbuch holds it’s better to speak English than Ivrit. I’m sure it’s not a universally held opinion, though. He’s from the eida chareidis, which is more extreme in their anti-Zionism than other gedolim. Stop in the Mir Yerushalayim and you’ll hear Yiddish, English, and Hebrew. The ikkar is havana, and it overrides ideology.

Ad kan. Feel free to continue this thread without me.

Just started doing maseches megilla for a siyum attempt by the purim seudah. reminded me of one of my favorite megilla jokes:

Why does it take stmar forever to read the megillah?

Because they klop every time it says “medina”!

Once again, as a reminder- i hold whatever the Mahara”l holds.

The relevant Ikkarim of the Rambam are:

1. Hashem alone created and runs the world

2. Hashem doesn’t have a physical form.

3. even though humans have a neshama from Hashem, they are NOT Hashem, and it is assur to Daven to a human being.

Joseph, great post. Before I respond, I must point out that your chosen name, “Joseph”, is something that Reb Moshe says should be protested. So please allow me to do so. Jothar is clearly a kinui and not an adoption of a goyishe name.

Please allow me to sum up your shita. Ivrit is totally not holy, Yiddish is holy, English is not holy.

1. I am not “modeh” that Jews last used Lashon hakodesh prior to the churban bayis rishon. It’s not a modeh bemiktzas, it’s a heilech. I never argued that point. I just argued on a point I believe you made from a Chassam sofer that they spoke Aramaic even before churban bayis rishon.

2. I’m not a Zionist. Ben-Yehuda’s Ivrit has many words that a Ben torah does not say. So does Yiddish. The honest, objective fact remains that ivrit is closer to Lashon Hatorah and Lashon chachomim than Yiddish, which is Germanic in nature. If I would open up an Avi Ezri, the language I would be reading bears a much more striking resemblance to Ivrit Yiddish. Just change the havara and drop the treif words introduced by the rasha mefursam. If ivrit is treif, lashon hakodesh is holy. At the time of its first adoption in Eretz yisroel, it was the language of haskalah and one was obligated to protest. Once it’s an accepted tongue, it loses its associations with tumah. Yiddish was once a “new” secular language too. In fact, right now, a google search on teaching Yiddish reveals that this is heavily pushed by secularists, who hope to use yiddish to replace genuine Judaism.

3. The posted Igros Moshe from Even Ha’ezer 3, siman 35 quite clearly says Yiddish is lashon Ashkenaz, a lashon chol. Ie, not holy. Rav Dovid cohgen’s sefer said it’s holy based on the gemara phrases used. Yeshivish English has the same maalah. I have heard and read the other Igros Moshe I quoted to you, that it’s better to teach in a language kids understand than Yiddish, but I can’t find it right now. It was quoted in the Jewish observer in the last 6 months, so anyone with a collection can find it. I am continuing my efforts to quote you the exact siman.I have heard it and seen it quoted enough times to know that it’s emes.

3. Both the Igros Moshe which I quoted with the exact source and the “mystery” well-known Igros Moshe clearly state no Yiddish romanticism on the part of Reb Moshe ZT”L. Feif Un’s relative and my anonymous Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L agree. I am not opposed to Yiddish, and I do have a basic grasp of it. not enough to read the secular yiddish books available online, but enough to puzzle out shiurim in Yiddish. It’s a fine language. So is English. I’m opposed to Yididshism, the conflation of speaking “lashon Ashkenaz” (Reb Moshe’s words) with an actual mitzvah., and the absurd idea that this mitzvah overrides the mitzvah for kids to actually understand what they’re learning. It’s mefursam in shas an poskim that the only language one is yotzei in without havana is Lashon Hakodesh. No other language has this maalah. So even without Reb Moshe ZT”L, it’s pashut ubarrur. I highly doubt Rav Shach ZT”L meant to contradict this halacha, and I highly doubt Rav Shach would say this at a time when it’s difficult enough for kids to develop a proper love of torah without being confused by an “amaleikishe lashon” with no intrinsic kedusha. This “mitzvah” of yiddish is not in shas, it’s not in shulachan aruch, it’s not in nosei keilim. Ergo, it doesn’t exist. This is the biggest mekor to my view- if it was a mitzvah, it would be mentioned somewhere in Shas or poskim. Its non-existence is the biggest proof it’s not a mitzvah. And if there is an inyan to speak it, as you claim, it surely doesn’t override Chanoch lenaar al pi darko, even without my exact source for Reb Moshe ZT”L. That said, I will get it, lemaan ha’emes. YOUR only mekor is a svara denafshach and a mystery quote from Rav Shach ZT”L. If it’s not in shas or poskim, it’s not a mitzvah. It’s a reshus, and it doesn’t override the mitzvah of velimadtem. My opposition to Yiddishism stems from both my Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L and Reb Moshe ZT”L. It’s based on Torah, not a personal negiah.

4. You make a very valid point of the tumah caused to Lashon Hakodesh by the secular Zionists.No argument here.

5. Where in the Kuzari is this? I would like to look it up. This poiint has been debated by various rishonim and acharonim (see the Maharsh”a on Sanhedrin 21b, on why the Jews chose Lashon Hakodesh over Aramaic), and one more viewpoint couldn’t hurt.

6. English with Jewish terms is the same thing as German with Jewish terms. The secular Yiddishists have also elevated Yiddish to a mitzvah at the expense of genuine mitzvos. As you feel this mitzvah overrides chanoch lenaar al pi darko,havana in learning and other mitzvos, “ma bein eilu le’eilu”? As you are a shomer torah umitzvos, I assume your answer is that it doesn’t affect it. My experiences and the view of Reb Moshe ZT”L say otherwise.

7. Ivrit is no mitzvah. Lashon Hakodesh IS a mitzvah, as the Sifri says. Reb Moshe ZT”L points out that Jews always spoke the local galus lashon, Yiddish being lashon ashkenaz. Ask a goy to read this thread. He’ll say “that’s not English!” It’s yeshivish. The local language given a Jewish twist.

8. Not familiar with Lev HaIvri. I do see that he was niftar in 1922. The chazon Ish was opposed to teaching children in Ivrit back then too. Later on, he changed, as it was the language children spoke. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko means teaching children in their own language. Statements by Gedolim aren’t said in a vacuum. They’re based on facts on the ground. If the facts change, then the psak is no longer relevant.

9. My a relative’s wedding in France, they used lashon hakodesh as a way to break the communications barrier. It can be done.

10. As previously stated, there IS a mitzvah to speak lashon hakodesh, but klal yisroel wasn’t nizhar in it.

11. I’ll just take your quote, since you said it best:

“…there is a Mitzvah to understand your learning as best as you can, it was deemed by Klal Yisroel better to use foregn language – or at least a combination of Loshon HaKodesh and foreign language, which is really what is needed to get a complex Torah idea across.”

Bingo. Sfasayim yishak. A mitzvah to understand what you are learning. Exactly why Reb Moshe ZT”L felt you teach kids in English instead of lashon ashkenaz.

12. Very true. The orginal secular Zionists were trying to replace the “galus yid” with their nation like all nations. Hebrew was part of their secular culture. Now that it’s a fait accompli in Israel, ivrit is no longer treif, just like names like Berel and Anshel are no longer treif.

Ad kan, although I will hunt down for you the Igros Moshe that agrees with you as far as chinuch goes. I have already quoted the igros that says Yiddish=English- Even Ha’ezer 3, siman 35. Fascinating read, and at the end he explains how Yehuda ‘Leon’is no different from Yehuda Leib.

One final milsa debidichusa- a true story I heard from a friend of mine. When the Jewish immigrants came over from Europe years ago, they went to public school. Some yiddish-speaking immigrants were in a class learning Spanish. They were learning how to say “here is a table” in Spanish- “aqui es una mesa”. what they ended up hearing is “a ki ess un a messer”- a cow eats without a knife. Hilarity ensued, and the poor Spanish teacher was wondering why all the Jewish kids were giggling and laughing.

It probably is one of the best threads here, Joseph, but I’m not ligt in the sugya enough to give an honest appraisal.

For some “light” torah, nossond, what pshat are you using to explain the issur of mazik?

While looking up the Igros Moshe on marijuana for another thread, I looked up some Igros on Lashon Hakodesh. very interesting Even Haezer 3, siman 35. The questioner wanted to have gittin differentiate between Jewish names and english names. Reb Moshe ZT”L responds that originally, yiddish names were Goyish German names. there is no difference between goyish German (=yiddish) names and goyish english names. He continues that now the Yiddish names are accepted as Jewish after hundreds of years, but it wasn’t that way originally. so one should protest giving kids English names, but they’re not fundamentally different than Yiddish names. he brings down a peirush mishnayos leRamba”m on Terumos who says what Joseph brought down earlier from another source- Lashon Hakodesh of the Torah is mostly lost to us. The Ramba”m elsewhere does say that Lashon Chachomim (still alive and well) is also a Lashon Hakodesh. Reb Moshe ZT”L continues that despite the mitzvah to speak in Lashon Hakodesh (he quoted a Sifri, forgot to note where), the minhag has always been to speak the “lashon chol” of the golus country, which is why we lost lashon hakodesh. The jews did speak Lashon hakodesh throught bayis rishon. He says names are the same thing. it’s a maaleh to give kids Jewish names, and a maalah to speak lashon hakodesh, but English names are worse than Yiddish names only because they’re not widely accepted.

I tried to find the one about chanoch lenaar al pi darko. Unfortunately, I was not able to. The Yad Moshe can sometimes be confusing. I do not save my Jewish Observers, but it was quoted in one about 5-6 months ago. I will try to hunt it down.

TJ, shkoyach for the Rokeach. Was not familiar with it.

Itzik, what you are saying, in short, is that he was in a moment of grief, and the kefira he said was a ruach shtus. I would love to believe it. He is supposed to be mainstream. It would mean that such kefirah is not mainstream thought.

I have difficulty with this interpretation because:

1. He spoke publicly, not privately. It was a public gathering for divrei hisorerus.

2. Nobody corrected him. They all said “Amen”.

3. He didn’t correct himself, or put out a public retraction.If I cursed publicly and was a public figure, I would run to apologiuze and ask forgiveness.

4. He didn’t say an expletive. He said what sounded like a very well-thought-out sentence, one that matches what anecdotal evidence idicates is a more widely-held belief than people want to admit to.

5. Two Lubavitchers I know of who saw it said he meant what he said, but he meant tzaddik gozeir VeHashem Mekayeim, as if that means running the world (If my kid asks for a lollipop and I give him one, he’s not running the show). So 2 people “in the know” say it wasn’t a mistake or a kefirah equivalent of an expletive.

6. There are many who clearly interpret “bettenen the Rebbe” and “hiskashrus” as saying this very thing. Websites stating “The Rebbe = Hashem” are easily accessible with a simple Google search.

Again, if I was a public rabbi instead of balabos, and in a public speech, in a state of grief said “J*s*s runs the world”, I would make sure to go out of my way to let everyone know that it wasn’t an expression of a belief but a ruach shtus. I would expect whatever organization I was part of put out a clarification and apology. I would expect widespread confusion on the face of the audience for saying something so shocking. I would also expect someone to make a loud protest.

NONE of that happened here. The silence is a bit deafening to me.

What shaiches, Thanks for the marek makom. will look it up tonight.

Can you give me a spoiler preview whay it’s assur? Dina demalchusa, prikas ol, or health?

From what I read, people don’t chainsmoke blunts like they chainsmoke tobacco. Nicotine is much more addicting. Maybe some members here know better than me and correct me if my metzius is off.

There are perfectly legal “natural” drugs that provide a potent and dangerous high. these may be legal but the fact that there seem to be many deaths connected with them make them much worse halachicly than marijuana.

To be clear, I’m not advocating smoking marijuana. The psychological effect of doing something illegal cannot be underestimated. But if it was legal, halachicly it would be better than addictive smoking.