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Will, Reb Dovid holds chalav stam is muttar meikkar hadin. It’s good to be machmir, but not “only be meikel beshas hadchak”. I posted the quote arlier. It was copied and pasted off another website. The written mekor is the kuntres yad dodi by Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of the 5 Towns. He too is available to call. He clearly is more meikel than the teshuva of Reb Moshe ZT”L suggests. The quote of the translation I lifted off another wbsite says there’s no problem keeping cholov yisroel when convenient. furthermore, candy bars usually use powdered milk, which the minhag has been to be meikel. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”l agree with the traditional reading, the way you began this thread.
Echad hamarbeh ve’echad hamam’it ubilvad sheyichavein libo lashomayim.
Clearly chamira sakanta meissura, and there is clearly no heter to drink so much that you can’t daven or bentch. The mishna brurah is clear on this point, and I have yet to see someone who argues and holds that these mitzvos do not apply on Purim. Bentching is a deoraysa, and so is Krias Shma. Even on Purim, they’re halachos deoraysah, not chumros.
The famous bochur who almost died from alcohol poisoning on Purim should give us all pause. The Maharsh”a in Maseches Megillah says “shachtei Raba lereb Zeira” meant that he convinced him to drink too much and Reb Zeira became mortally ill. The Maharsha also adds in bava metzia that a tzurva merabbanan is allowed to claim on Purim that “lo yada” even tho he’s in a state of “yada”.
Finally, the Gr”a and many others say that “ad delo yada” means an inability to calculate the gematria of “arur Haman” and “baruch Mordechai”.
labochur, Rav Shach is based on the Prisha on the Tur in siman 246, which, as far as I understand, nobody argues on. The shearim metzuyanim behalacha brings down many examples of learned women, as does the Torah temimah in his Mekor Baruch.
Will Hill, when I spoke to Rav Dovid Feinstein after reading the Igros Moshe inside, he implied that he IS fitting into the teshuva of his father. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L clearly argue. Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns agrees with me, as posted here earlier from another website. The MTJ payphone#, for those who don’t have it, is (212) 962-9296. I don’t know Rabbi Frankel’s number, the one who wrote the Yad Dodi, but I’m sure it’s in the phone book.
The recommendation in my yeshiva was that one should keep cholov yisroel when he got married. I tried to follow it, but my milk sensitivity meant that I just couldn’t stomach the stuff- it was almost always spoiled, or about to be spoiled, and chamira sakanta meissura. My guf precluded me from being a baal nefesh. Clearly, those who want to be machmir have a solid basis for doing so. And based on Reb Dovid’s interpretation of his father’s Teshuva (Reb Dovid being on the Moetzes and all), those who want to be meikel, yesh al mi lismoch. As always, ask your rav and poseik- I’m a balabos, and real poskim don’t hang out on the Internet anyway.
I thought I would wait until Adar, but this one isn’t my own, so I’ll put this one up early.
It says that Haman was evel vachafui rosh. the meforshim say that his daughter threw garbage on his head, and when she saw it was her own father she jumped out the window and killed herself. The question is, shouldn’t evel come before chafui rosh, since his head was covered before she died? The answer given is that since by an object, basar meikara azlinan, as soon as she jumped out she was considered dead, even before the garbage landed on her father.
I believe the way my rabbeim put the partnership is 51%-49%, not 100%-0%. It’s chochmah and bina working it out to come to daas, not chochmah overriding binah.
The takana of chazal gavra_at_work was referring to was a takana for her benefit. She gives her husband the maasey yadayim, she gets redeemed if she is captured. the gemara is clear that she has the right to say “no”. It’s not like rejecting kashrus- the gemara gives her the power.
Hillof beans, Rav Dovid Feinstein PASKENED it’s ok to drink cholov stam, even though the teshuvos of Reb Moshe ZT”L indicate otherwise. You can call Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns (author of the Yad Dodi of the psakim of R Dovid Feinstein ) to confirm. I posted the relevant quotes from another website earlier. This is not negating the fact that the pashut pshat reading of Reb Moshe ZT”L indicates that one should be machmir. Bnei Torah should be machmir, but those who aren’t are not Reshoim.
“Yad zorim” is a phrase I assume directed at the last volume of the Igros moshe, the one with the “Brain death” teshuva that Rabbi Fuerst from Chicago alleges is completely forged. You can download the shiur from Rabbi Fuerst from psak.org.
I agree the Igros Moshe seems clear that it’s a shas hadchak. The quote of Reb Dovid’s position came from Rabbi Frankel of the Aguda of 5 towns. The wife of one of my frieds is from the Lower East Side, and personally poured chalav stam for Reb Dovid. Every so often it pays to take an F train to the first stop in Manhattan, East Broadway, and speak to him yourself. I once did that and asked him. I spoke to someone else who told me that “shas hadchak” refers to putting frum companies out of business. It could be Reb Dovid is arguing on his father, but when I asked him he said that’s what the teshuva meant or something like that. Being that it shtims with what Rabbi Frankel said, I’m willing to accept it. But there is no argument that the pashut pshat reading of Reb Moshe ZT”L is like Big One.
As for the air conditioner timers, my rav and poseik said that we should only use timers for lights and air conditioners. I have to double check, but I believe that air conditioners are allowed because of extreme discomfort, and light are different for another reason which I forget offhand. Otherwise, we listen to Reb Moshe ZT”L. I will try to find out more exactly why these 2.
Rav Shachter doesn’t publicize his views on this because “tov sheyihyu shogegin” and others argue on him anyway, but he says that nowadays, most dairy cows are treif, even without the “displaced abomasum” cows, and when all the milk is mixed togather, there is no biltul berov, and definitely not bitul beshishim. Rabbi Belsky argues, and on this basis I drink milk. As for why today’s cows are worse than they were historically, it’s only in the last 100 years or so that people bred specialty cows. It used to be that cows needed to be hardy or they wouldn’t survive. Today we breed cows for soft meat (Angus, Kobe, etc) or for dairy production (Holstein etc). Furthermore, today’s cows are in stressful environments to make mass production possible. The zebu cows are much hardier than our European cows. their meat is also like shoe leather, which is why chicken and geese used to rank higher than cow meat on the “chashivus” totem pole.
Joseph, if ideally the husband should be the breadwinner, are you saying kollel is not ideal? 🙂
This is the thing about power- the less you use it, the more you have it. Parents who rarely yell at their kids find their rare yells have more power than parents who yell at their kids all the time. Yonasan rosenblum wrote recently in Mishpacha how all the recent kol korehs pushed by askanaim have weakened the hold of the gedolim on the amcha. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. Respect and submission have to bearned. Rav Avigdor Miller also writes, if I remember correctly, how the key is vitur. The gemara in yevamos 63a says “In Eretz Yisroel when a man marries a woman, they ask (or tell) him,’found’ or ‘find’? Found means ‘He who found a wife found good’, and ‘find’ means ‘and I find womankind worse than death'”. I forget my girsa deyankusa, but one of the meforshim there says that they are in fact telling the man that if he’s mechebed ishto yoseir migufo, it will be good. Otherwise, it’s worse than death. Sure, the man is “tzurah” and the woman is “chomer”, and tzurah acts on chomer not vice versa. This submissiveness is supposed to be a given. So is the mechabed ishto yoseir migufo. You can’t have one without the other, or you have an abusive relationship. In other words, if submissiveness is a sine qua non of marriage, so if treating one’s wife with the utmost respect. The Gr”a writes in Parshas Chayey Sarah that the kashe zivugo shel adam kekrias yam suf is because the husband has to always calculate if something is worth putting his foot down, or if he should be mevater. As the marriage books say, marriage is about giving, not getting- ahava is “ana hav”. If you give kavod, you then get deference and respect. If you don’t believe me on this, please read “The River the Kettle and the Bird” and other such works.
There is a famous story with the Chazon Ish ZT”L, that his wife once came in while he was having a meeting with someone else and said that she doesn’t have the ingredients for chicken fricasee, so they’ll have to have plain chicken. When she left, the Chazon Ish ZT”L told his visitor, “I don’t like chicken fricasee.” This after years of marriage- he never put his foot down.
Years ago in my yeshiva days, I had a roommate who bought a hamster. (Yes we were both litvaks so we weren’t makpid on being mistakel bebeheima temeah.)He expected the hamster to give him adoring love and affection right away. Once he got upset at it for not being that way, and he got a bite and a sphincter release on his hand for his efforts. I treated it nicely, and got the love and respect from it.
By Pesach we say “yachol merosh chodesh, talmud lomar bayom hahu. For this thread I’d say “yachol kodem rosh chodesh, talmud lomar mishenichnas adar”.
Joseph, I can’t argue effectively enough for people to listen to me on this without quoting, but it is true that my rabbeim told this to me. As anything to do with shidduchim, anyone who doesn’t hav a rav or rebbe to speak to will flounder anyway. When approaching shidduchim, one simply needs a kesher with someone to talk to and make sure they’re doing the right thing. I can just imagine being on a date and saying, “I’m looking for someone to be submissive. Are you my bashert?” I’m not arguing on Rav Avigdor Miller. I’m just saying it takes the other side to agree to this, and good luck with that. My rabbeim also agree that Rav Avigdor Miller’s shita is the ideal. They just are aware that many of today’s girls are not as willing to abide by it as they used to be. I’m sure Rav Avigdor Miller would agree that it’s not me’akeiv the shidduch if the girl is a bit more independent-minded like we find today.
Submission works when there is the other side- a mechabed ishto yoseir migufo on the part of the husband. If one is properly mechabed ishto yoseir migufo, one sees his wife being more submissive in appreciation of her husband’s tzidkus. Otherwise, if the husband isn’t doing his role, why should she do hers?
ALL milk. He discusses it in a shiur called a amira lenochri, available on YU’s torah website.
When Rav Steinman visited America years ago, he had a bachur milk the cow in the farm and bring the milk over directly in a pot that he was watching the entire time.
I had a relative of my mother’s who used to work as a chalav yisroel mashgiach in the 50’s. He used to supervise the milking and sit on the trucks to the milk silo . At the time, there were 2 big cholov yisroel firms, and people who held of one hashgacha didn’t hold of the other. The interesting thing is that both companies stored their milk IN THE SAME MILK SILO! They just kept track of who put how many gallons in.
Rav Hershel Shachter holds that ALL milk is treif. Good thing Rabbi Belsky disagrees.
I think a good way to sum up a lot of the recents posts is that nowadays, marriage is more of a “luxury” than it ever used to be. Not from a Torah perspective of course, but from a practical survival perspective. Allowing multiple spouses allowed multiple women to be supported.
Women are a lot more educated and financially independent than they used to be. This makes submission harder than it used to be. I’ve spoken to rabbeim who agree that this submission, while ideal, is just not going to fly in today’s world. The current recommended compromise is the man is in charge of ruchnius, the woman in charge of gashmius.
1. davening
2. torah
3. Mussar and self-improvement, making you worthy of getting married.
When Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L came to America, he was a meshulach for the Kovna kollel. He stopped in to visit a certain businessman, and told him that the businessman gave a certain amount of dollars last year. The businessman challenged the number, and showed Reb Yaakov ZT”L a receipt with a lower number. Reb Yaakov ZT”L quit on the spot. The guy wanted to give Reb Yaakov ZT”L a check anyway. Reb Yaakov ZT”L told him he no longer works for the kollel, and is unable to take money for them.
When Reb Moshe ZT”L came out with his psak on AI Donor, a certain kanoi went out of his way to make Reb Moshe’s life miserable. One day, this kanoi is arrested by the government for fraud. Before sentencing, this kanoi asked Reb Moshe ZT”L to write a letter to the judge in order to get a more lenient sentence. Reb Moshe ZT”L wrote the letter without hesitation. After all, a Jew needs his help.
Someone was engaged to the daughter of Reb Baruch Ber ZT”L. The guy later broke it off. Sometime after that, the guy asked Reb Baruch Ber for a recommendation letter. Reb Baruch Ber wrote the latter, and asked several people their opinion of it to make sure there was no mashehu of a violation of “lo sitor”.
Many people like to say they’re totally leshem shomayim, with no desire for personal kavod. The saintly Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz, who worked on himself his entire life, still admitted later in life that it feels good when he gets a bracha at a wedding titled “Der Rosh Yeshiva fun Der Mirrer Yeshiva”.
Ames, arguing is EXACTLY how Torah shebaal peh is meant to be done. Enough “vahev basufah”. Back to the arguing!
I hunted down tonight a shearim metzuyanim behalacha, one of the best sefarim for bekiyus and “reid” on a topic. It was one of my best friends while learning chullin for semicha in my pre-balabos days.
He quotes a Shu”t Maharshal siman 29 that his grandmother used to teach big rabbanim and gedolim from behind a curtain for many years. I don’t think we’re arguing about this, but good to know nevertheless
In Sefer Chassidim 313, he defines tiflus as “omek talmud”, “taamei mitzvos”, and “sodei torah”. This does shtim with the Taz. It looks like from the likutei halachos that only one level was permitted, ie the lower level of torah shebiksav. Torah shebaal peh was not permitted except for mussar. Based on everything, the following would be assur even today to teach women unless we mattir even torah shebaal peh based on “eis laasos”:
1. Mishnayos and Gemara (Sefer Chassidim, Reb Moshe ZT”L);
2. Ramban on Chumash (Taz, sefer Chassidim);
3. Maharal, since “sodei torah” ( sefer Chassidim)
Seminaries avoid #1 like the plague. #2 and #3 are widespread among all seminaries, despite the fact that they’re torah shebaal peh. Clearly they have a heter, since they get the daughters of the best rabbonim. So clearly they have a heter for Torah Shebaal Peh.
Big one, it was in the marriage books I read when I was in the parsha, with a good source. It’s clearly mashma like that with all the midrashim that the woman is the other half of the neshama, eizer kenegdo, etc.
Agreed 100% that Rav Avigdor Miller’s viewpoint is the authentic Jewish viewpoint on marriage. It’s tougher today, though, with educated women
Ames, of course women cared about their husbands spending a different night in someone else’s tent. Parshas Vayetzei, while keeping in mind we’re speaking about tzidkonios, clearly shows the strains that multiple wives can cause. While multiple wives are allowed, it’s not an ideal, and Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi goes out of his way to point out that multiple wives cause each wife to try killing the other with witchcraft- marbeh nashim marbeh kshafim. It’s just that the Torah is aware that humans are not always perfect, and it’s better to allow multiple wives than for the husband to be mezaneh. The Torah allowed yefas toar too, not that it was meant as a good thing.
Every so often I see an article explaining yoshon.
Big one, I agree that the stam interpretation of the Igros is like you said. That said, Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a is on the moetzes. He’s a bar hachi to interpret what his father meant. I believe I once asked him about it, and got a similar answer to the quote above. If you feel he misinterpreted his father’s teshuva, he’s available to speak to in MTJ on a regular basis. In fact, Reb Dovid used to drink Chalav Stam himself. i know someone who wanted to be makpid on cholov yisroel after he got married, but his wife was from the Lower East Side and personally poured cholov stam for Reb Dovid! You are raising a good he’ara though.
As for why Reb Moshe ZT”L was accepted over Reb aharon ZT”L and the satmar Rav ZT”L, chas veshalom to say it was politics that made Reb Moshe the unchallenged leader of his generation. A poseik is different from a Rebbe of a chassidus or a Rosh Hayeshiva, even a Rebbe as great as the satmar Rebbe ZT”L and a rosh Hayeshiva as great as Reb Aharon ZT”L. Reb Aharon’s talmidim followed his psakim, and the Satmar rav’s talmidim followed his psakim, but Reb Moshe’s universal acceptance was because of his mazing amkus an bekius expressed in his Igros Moshe and Dibros moshe. You’re taaning that Reb Moshe was only universally accepted because he was a meikel. If so, why wasn’t Rav Soloveitchik the poseik hador? Clearly it had to do with actual hakarah of his gadlus.
As for milk and the government, milk is a highly regulated basic staple. it’s not a chemical stew. Any milk adulteration and the owner will be out of business. Furthermore, dairy cows are bred to produce as much milk as possible. this selective breeding, plus the specialized equipment, makes it near-impossible to adulterate milk. Besides, the big milk firms gather milk from multiple farms. Even lu yitzur someone started cutting their milk, it’s batul, and the lawsuit would put the place out of business quickly. Milk is one of those things you don’t mess with.
Thanks, Ames.
I give props to Joseph- his good sources help inspire me to find other good sources- a true “kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma”.It’s kinas sofrim, but not lekanter. Joseph has a big cheilek in my nightly Limud Torah, and helps me get emes by challenging my opinions. In other words, he’s my chavrusa, not my enemy, even though we’re usually arguing. There are times that I will argue on him just for the sake of playing Satan’s advocate, in order to achieve ravcha shmaatza, even if my real views may be different. Groyse shkoyach, Joseph!
I just got it from another J-news website.
Chodosh is a totally different thread, but you’re asking “good”. There’s a question if Chodosh even applies in chutz la’aretz, and if it’s deoraysah or miderabbanan, and how far you have to go to be mevarer, since most wheat is winter wheat, although a miut hamatzui is spring wheat. Not sure why it’s exactly comparable, since the fact that it may be a deoraysa even in chutz la’aretz should make chodosh worse than cholov yisroel, although the minhag has clearly been to be meikel on chodosh for hundreds of years in the shtetles. I’ll have to research this- good he’ara.
From another website- the views of Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a on chalav stam:
hailah: What is the halacha lemaaseh on cholov Yisroel?
Rav Dovid Feinstein:
{The above teshuvos were transcribed by Harav Yitzchok Dovid Frankel of Cedarhurst, NY, in Kuntres Yad Dodi.}
Jeans are viewed as a low-class beged of low-class people. “Hippies”isn’t completely literal. Same with camo pants.
To be clear, there is no issur deoraysah here, unless you hold that jeans are a beged meyuchad for goyim.
Again, this is pre-menahel hocking.
Dell mini 9’s are cheap, but Sign up for covenant eyes.
The Catskills comment was germane to the discussion of why Jewish stores have the policies they do.
When I was shopping with my kallah in Boro Park for a wedding ring (not all of my shidduchim ended badly B”H) , I went into a certain store. They told me a price for the ring. when I went to pay by credit card, I was told, “We’ll have to charge you more because now we have to charge you sales tax”. Halacha requires me to pay the sales tax, according to all litvishe poskim (Rabbi Belsky, Rav Dovid Feinstein, et al), do i wasn’t upset by the turn of events. So they billed my credit card. then I said I wanted it shipped. The They billed me a second time for the shipping fee. the assistant ripped up the first receipt, and then the guy started spazzing out because without my signature on the first receipt, I could challenge the payment and rob him of the cost of the ring. Then he darshened that since kiddushin isn’t valid with a stolen ring I wouldn’t challenge the receipt, and then he calmed down.
Let’s just say I did not have a good experience. That said, the fact is that many people are fond of geneivishe shtick unfortunately. Kabdeihu vechashdeihu applies to frum yidden as well- the Gemara makes this perfectly clear.
There is a famous quote attributed to various gedolim that if “lo sigzol” was a tzavaah of Rabbi Yehuda Hachassid or a chumra in the Taz instead of on the Luchos (as part of lo sachamod or as an anaf of lo signov, it would be kept more widely.
Will Hill, I do not know the spource of gavra_at_work’s quote.
I do have a quote from Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz ZT”L, which was quoted in the Mishpacha article on his yartzeit.
Mishpacha issue 239, page 27, courtesy of mishpacha.com:
and one of his seatmates at the head table
made an elaborate display of retaking
maaser from the bread on the table. Reb
Chaim was allergic to public displays of
piety, especially when he felt that they
subtly touched upon it.
merits having a Rebbe; only then will he
have a mesorah and be saved from all
I spoke to one of my learned friends, who feels that jeans got associated with the hippie movement. Thus, jeans became the symbol of rebellion and prikas ol. This does NOT apply to jean skirts, as it’s not the material, it’s the jeans. Cotton pants never had that stigma, but different yeshivas have different rules on what qualifies as “Ben Torah” clothing. I’ll try speaking to a menahel. these guys get challenged on everything, and have ready answers for everything.
The Walmart in the Castkills had to change their return policy, which used to be a generous 60 days, because people would come up from the city, buy an air conditioner, and return it at the end of the summer.
It took them a while to figure out why they had a much higher return rate than other Walmarts nationally.
Multiple wives = multiple parnassahs and fathers-in-law to pay for kollel 🙂
Seriously, what I heard about it as that it was never an ideal. As it says in pirkei avos, marbeh nashim marbeh keshafim. There is a reason why the word for co-wife is “tzarah”. However, men have different needs than women. Furthermore, with the high male death rate from working hard labor, plus the expenses of raising daughters who can’t work the fields, marriage provided the woman with a means of guaranteed support, as per the kesubah guarantee. However, it’s clear from Chazal that the ideal is one man, one wife.
Ashreinu- I did not attend RIETS. I was in a “middle ground” yeshiva- in between YU and Lakewood. Emes is emes, no matter what yeshiva you attend.
From an article I just saw:
“Everything blew up after seven children left heder [religious elementary school],” said one community member. “At first we didn’t understand why, and then it turned out that they had been abused. The parents wanted the matter to be dealt with, but they were warned that if the abuse became known it would harm their children’s chances of finding a match. The parents got quiet and the children remained damaged because no one defended them.” He and a former community member also said one of the teachers beat the children.
I had a quick hour last night to go to the beis midrash, so I had to make it quick. I had to pay a babysitter just to get away to the beis midrash- “meimeinu bekesef shasinu”. I think I got it clear though.
There is an argument in Sotah is women should be taught Torah or not. The poskim follow the view that they should not. There is a split made between Torah shebiksav and Torah shebaal peh. According to the most common reading, torah shebaal peh is tiflus, Torah shebiksav is not but shouldn’t be taught anyway. The Prisha in the Tur says that a woman is allowed to decide on her own to learn, because it shows she’s extraordinary. The Taz proves from the gemara in chagiga 3a about hakhel, the men “lilmod” and the women “lishmoa”, that women can learn the pashut pshat in mikra but shoudl not delve too deeply into the havana, because that is torah shebaal peh. The likutei halachos by sotah 21a says that nowadays, women need to learn to keep them frum, since the shtetl days of reinforced frumkeit are gone. He says tanach, mussar, pirkei avos. Reb Moshe clearly says no mishnayos except pirkei avos, and kol shekein no gemara.
That said, women are allowed to learn on their own. The wife of Reb Isser Zalman Meltzer was known to have been a big lamdanis, and helped her husband write his seforim. it thus makes sense that his daughter, Rebbetzin Kotler, would be the same way.
Rav Zalman Sorotzkin in Moznaim Lemishpat siman 42 (disclaimer- I didn’t have enough time to hunt this down myself) allows Torah shebaal peh but just the maskanah, not shakla vetarya.
Bottom line: Women are allowed to learn on their own. According to most poskim, men shouldn’t teach them Torah shebaal Peh. the Taz makes it clear that deep havana in mikra is torah shebaal Peh, which makes Rambans the same thing as Gemara. While they aren’t teaching gemara, they clearly are teaching the girls torah shebaal peh- tiflus. The only heter I hear for seminaries is that of Rav Zalman Sorotzkin, which I didn’t read yet.
But I assume most men don’t want a chavrusa, as it challenges their self-worth.
One guy I know came back from a date singing “kallah ra’ah vachashuda”…
The shtetel experience was such that 2 people from the same or neighboring towns had the same background and experience. The close “bungalow-colony”-like atmosphere ensured that people knew the girl quite well. Today’s large cities and divergent backgrounds make it that you need more time to get to know the person, and make sure that no serious problems are being hidden.
To be clear, I do agree that much of today’s hishtadlus is excessive. My rav put it this way- check into a girl the way you check into a job. Both are bashert, but people do much less checking for jobs than they do for shidduchim. No matter how much research you do, there will always be adjustments to be made. As long as you are willing to work it through, that is marriage.
Another example of the change in frum society due to the move from the shtetl is what is today known by the misnomer Glatt kosher. While in Europe, people would eat cows even if there were large lung deformities, they relied on the lung checker, who was known by the rabbi. Today, most people do not eat meat unless it’s glatt kosher, meaning that the lung deformities are minor. (A totally smooth lung is known as Beis Yosef Glatt or genuine glatt). The reason for this change is that due to the massive operations in today’s slaughterhouses, it’s impossible to personally vouch for any lung checker.
Will hill, a soulmate is EXACTLY what the Torah’s view is. 2 halves of a whole. A man is not complete until he’s married because his neshama is incomplete. So let’s change the word from soulmate to “other half of the soul”. I do agree with you, though, that most divorces are preventable if people realize that soulmate doesn’t mean agreeing on everything. Chochma (male viewpoint) and bina (female viewpoint) need to compromise and transcend to form daas. People also think soulmate means “perfect angel who’ll cater to my every whim while I remain immature”.
I’m referring to the elite seminaries in Israel, where the brightest of the bright frum girls go. They’re not shteiging over takfu cohen, but a lot of the machshava quotes heavily from Torah shebaal peh, including Gemara and zohar. Gemara is the line that most of them don’t cross over, but it’s almost semantics considering how far they’re going with Torah Shebaal Peh. The dividing line given in shulchan aruch (pre-Chofetz Chaim) is Torah shebiksav vs. torah shebaal peh. The chofetz chaim allowed torah shebiksav, dinim and mussar. The line, however, gets blurred with these seminaries. There is more to torah shebaal peh than just gemara. If I recall correctly, those who are makpid on learning torah shebiksav at night are allowed to learn Ramban and Rashi because they’re torah shebaal peh. Furthermore, my wife learned Maharal in seminary. I’ll check up the Igros tonight, along with the original likutei halachos if I can hunt it down. Again, I’m not advocating teaching gemara to girls, although if they want to learn it on their own, then halacha clearly allows it.
Anothr factor helping out in the chassidish world is that a husband and wife are not expected to be soulmates. She’s the mommy, he’s the tatty. He hangs with his chevra, she hangs with her chevra. It’s a much different relationship. In the olden days, women were married off to men who could support then. There was no “soulmate” idea either. It was understood that she was your “bashert”, and that there was no doing better. I’m sure they grew to love each other though. In today’s day, people want soulmates. It’s true that for hundreds of years, people didn’t date this way. it’s also true that for hundreds of years, only the yechidei segula learned Torah instead of working after marriage, and the women didn’t get educated more than a Tze’ena U’re’ena. And it’s also true that for hundreds of years Jews lived in small shtetels with a very limited pool of candidates. Any girl you wanted to marry would be well-known by many people.
What does seem to be clear is that the difference between the seminaries and Rav Soloveitchik is more degree than essence. The metzius changed, and women need to be taught torah to keep them frum. The only question is how far the need to teach women extends. I don’t pasken like Rav Soloveitchik, but the difference between his views on it and the views of the top seminaries in Eretz Yisroel are not as wiidely divergent as I first thought.
I once dated a girl who worked in a home for mentally disabled frum children. She told me one of the kids she deals with is the son of a famous frum person, but they never came to visit him- they basically pretended he didn’t exist “for shidduchim purposes”.
A relative of mine through marriage got married to someone who had a severe addiction problem which was hidden “for shidduchim”.
You can’t be in Lakewood and go to college.
Rav Nosson kaminetzky quoted a Mahari”l who said that the issur against teaching women Torah was an “eis laasos”, a temporary measure. He also quoted his father who said that now that girls learn secular studies, they NEED to learn Torah to counteract the poison of secular studies. To be clear, there is no indication that this changes even the more severe level, torah shebaal peh. But I would love to know what fig leaf the seminaries are using, if “yiras shomayim” is the heter to broaden the allowance, or if it’s simple competition.
An interesting article based on Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a on what changed with women learning. This “skirts” the issue, but it does explain things very well.
After Moshe warned Paroh about Makas Arbeh, Paroh says (Bo 10:11), “Lichu Na HaGvarim V’Ivdu Es Hashem”, let the men folk go and serve Hashem, while the women and children remain behind. Rav Elyashiv says (Divrei Agada) that Paroh knew that if the women remain tied into the culture of Mitzrayim, the men can do all the avodah they want. As soon as they come back they will follow the women, and all will be lost.
He brings a Medrash (Bereishis Rabba 17:7) that drives home the point. The Medrash speaks of a childless couple who were both very pious people. They decided that since they were not producing any servants of Hashem, it is best that they divorce and each marry someone else, hopefully producing children. The man married a wicked lady and he himself became a Rasha. The woman married a wicked man but he became a tzaddik.
There was conference of Rabbonim after the Russian revolution, says Rav Elyashiv, where there was a proposal raised to create a curriculum for girls education. Many Rabbonim protested based on the words of Chazal who say not to teach your daughters torah. Rav Eliezer Rabinowitz from Minsk stood up and asked, how can you teach torah to someone who wants to convert if he is not yet Jewish? The obvious answer is that unless you teach him he cannot start becoming Jewish. Similarly with the girls. When there were vibrant Jewish homes they did not need to learn torah but times had changed and without torah they had no chance, and they would drag the boys down as well.
It is clear from here that the girls lead the way. However, don’t forget them because the future of our wonderful sons hang in the balance. What exactly they should be learning is a subject of great debate, and obviously the goal is Yiras Shamayim and not lomdus. Because when they come back from shteiging in Yeshiva there needs to be a special girl waiting for them or else… The girls are the hope and future of Klal Yisroel.
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Based on this, I can answer my own question, actually. the machshava they learn may be full of torah sheba’al peh, but the goal is yiras shamayim not lomdus, and this gives them an intellectual outlet AND gives them yiras shomayim.
Thanks, Ames. Just passing the great moshol of rabbi Shafier along. He rocks!
the reid is Rashi’s daughters were well-learned too, and even wrote some of the Rashis (eg the end of pesachim).
To be clear, I’m not advocating teaching women gemara in the beis Yaakovs. Reb Moshe ZT”L clearly paskened against it, and he was the poseik hador- despite the story with his great-grandmother. But if a women decides to learn Gemara on her own, there is no need to stop her, as per the Prisha 246:16. I’m not sure whose psak the top seminaries ( the ones that produce the wives for the best bachurim in Lakewood) are following, but it does seem to be closer to Rav Soloveitchik than Reb Moshe. The Torah Temimah’s Mekor Baruch lists a bunch of women who were as learned as his aunt, although since they put the abridged translation in cheirem the original may have fallen out of favor. In other words, the issue isn’t as cut-and-dried as it looks, although I wouldn’t argue on Reb Moshe ZT”L. The top seminaries seem to be, though. I would love to know their mekor.
I’m still partial to Rabbi Orlovsky’s explanation- to get to the bottom of things in the gemara, you need to be logically argumentative, which doesn’t come easily to most women. And everyone agrees that women need to learn the laws relating to them- Shabbos, challah, etc. The question is, in today’s highly polarized world, can a woman choose to learn Gemara on her own in a non-politicized way, or is it automatically like women’s tzitzis?
All agree that a man and woman should learn halachos together, and should learn musar together. So they can be chavrusos even without violating the stimas hagedolim.
Joseph, the famous Artscroll biography on Reb Yaakov Keminetzky ZT”L by jonathan Rosenblum came for the most part from the research of Reb Nosson Kaminetsky. I do not know how he’s viewed by the “oilam goilam”, but I do know that Rav Shmuel Kaminetky Shlit”a has his brother’s book freely available for perusal in his house. I see Rav shmuel Kaminetzky Shlit”a in the Yated all the time, and to get your picture in the Yated center pages you need to be a recognized gadol, a Rebbe, or a gvir. The hakdama to the 8th volume of igros moshe mentions that Reb Moshe Feinstein’s great grandmother attended a gemara shiur with the Tzemach Tzedek. She sat in the back. Reb Itzele Volozhin’s daughter was well-learned, as the Torah Temimah writes in his Mekor Baruch. Last time I checked, all yeshivish mesoras went back to Volozhin. Finally, RNK has a source from an eyewitness that Rav Aharon Kotler’s wife learned gemara. No matter how he’s viewed, it’s not an opinion- it’s an eyewitness account.
It is clear that the accepted psak for generations was that teaching them Torah is like teaching them tiflus. It is clear from the Chofetz chaim that something has changed, although he does not say to teach them gemara. It is also clear that yechidos learned gemara (1st wife of Netziv, grandmother of Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, wife of Reb Aharon kotler ZT”L. Nobody in the velt (except Rav YB Soloveitchik) mattirs directly teaching women gemara, except out of town as part of a joint class. But the best seminaries in Israel for the top girls live on the edge here. They’re not learning Reb Chaims but they are learning heavy intellectual machshava material (Rambans, Maharals, Michtav Me’eliyahu, etc) which can be considered Torah SheBaal Peh.
I assume the same Reb Moshe by women’s Tzitzis would apply here as well- if it’s done lesheim shamayim, it’s ok for yechidos. If it’s done for rebellion, then it’s Torah Lekanter and is an aveirah chamurah.
According to many shitos in Hilchos shechita, nashim daatan kalos just means that they get squeamish.
True story from a friend of mine who now runs his own place- one year a yeshiva was learning Yevamos. The wife of an avreich asked him to explain what he’s learning. He starts explaining the cases in yevamos he was learning. Every case in Yevamos had a high tragic body count, and soon his wife started crying. This guy couldn’t believe it, and told my friend about it. My friend started laughing, assuming his wife was tougher than that. So he comes home and tells his wife the story, laughing at the squeamishness of the first guy’s wife. Soon enough, his wife’s crying too, and my friend says “Never mind”.
There are videos of various goyim singing “hentelach”, carlebach, and Schwekey’s Racheim.
One of the best meshalim I’ve heard is from Rabbi Shafier. In India, strong elephants are tied with flimsy ropes to stakes in the ground. The elephant can easily pull it out and escape. Why doesn’t it? Because it’s been trained to think that it CAN’T. When it was a young baby elephant, the stake and rope were enough to imprison it. Now, it’s imprisoned by the memories of trying and failing so long ago. In fact, it’s imprisoned by NOTHING MORE than its own preconceived notions. If it would but try, it would be shocked at what it can accomplish.
Teen, it sounds like to me (although I could be 100% wrong) that much of your anti-religious outlook is based simply on the fact that you have issues with your parents, your parents are religious and push religion, and you rebel by being anti-religious. Perhaps you can go to family counseling, or a 3rd-party mediator. It’s a lot easier to choose to be religious when you can separate the intellectual decision of religion from emotional parent-child issues. I might also suggest going to an out-of-town yeshiva (one with strong supervision), which will give you the opportunity to explore who you are and who you want to be without the constant negativity engendered by your relationship with your parents. To be clear, I’m not picking sides here in the friction between you and your parents. I’m just naming it as a possible source for your anti-religious view, and one to be dealt with in a manner that you both can respect.
By the way, how old are your siblings? This question is pertinent to helping figure out why your parents wanted to kick you out.
Of course, I could be wrong, and this is simply projection on my part. If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me and add in additional information.
Listening now to the “off-the-cuff” lecture from Rav Nosson Kaminetzky.
The wife of Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L used to learn gemara.
Nesher, it’s tough answering this question without being subjective and judgmental. I guess the best way to answer it is, what are YOU like, are you an “in-town” personality or an “out-of-town” personality? What are your personal hashkafos and beliefs? Based on your answer, it will be easier to target a community that you would be comfortable with.