Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Will Hill, we’re not arguing. You’re asking lomdus, and I’m telling you metzius. I remember Reb Dovid Shlit”a asking me if I was a baal nefesh in a rhetorical tone, and this matches that. Perhaps you are a bigger baal nefesh than his family. I don’t know. I just know the metzius, and the metzius is that his family ate chalav stam. If you want me to speak to the woman who poured the chalav stam for Rebbetzin Feinstein, I’ll try to do so. I’ll also try to find you other witnesses from the Lower East Side. But you don’t die from a kashye, especially when you know the metzius.
Thanks for the nice comments everyone.
Cantoresq,Megillas Esther is part of the Mesorah. The books of the Maccabees are NOT. They were written to play up the Hasmonean family. Taanis Esther may be a relatively new observance, but Purim isn’t. Both from a Torah point of view and an irreligious academic point of view, the holiday of Purim is well-established.
The holiday of Nicanor in no way, shape or form contradicts a holiday established much earlier. Heck, even the additions to megilas esther are dated earlier than the hasmonean revolt. Josephus Flavius, the ancient equivalent of a Jew calling himself “Joseph Hitler”, had to admit to Purim’s existence.
Finally, the book of Maccabees upon which your question is based actually says that Nicanor day is the day before Mordechai’s day, aka Purim:
35
And he hung up Nicanor’s head in the top of the castle, that it might be an evident and manifest sign of the help of God.
36
And they all ordained by a common decree, by no means to let this day pass without solemnity:
37
But to celebrate the thirteenth day of the month of Adar, called, in the Syrian language, the day before Mardochias’ day.
38
So these things being done with relation to Nicanor, and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration.
Ad kan. This thread is drifting dangerously close to haskalah.
Chazal say that he who cries over the churban will merit to see its rebuilding. We did move on, in a sense that we all can eat meat and drink wine, and only have to leave a square amah in our houses unpainted instead of the whole thing. But still, when it comes to Tisha be’av, we must understand what we lost. There are those who cry over the loss of the Beis hamikdash every night – tikkun chatzos. It was the equivalent of a woman losing her husband- haysa ke’almana . A divorcee or widow moves on with her life, but she still feels the loss keenly. This is the way we feel with the loss of the Beis Hamikdash and our unique kesher with Hashem. It was for the best, and it was necessary, but it’s not to be celebrated. If your life is saved through an amputation, you move on but you still notice the lack of limb. Ultimately, we will be able to fully see the good. Ultimately, we will make a hatov vehameitiv when someone dies instead of a baruch dayan emes. But for now, we are limited by our humanity, and we must function based on it. Again, we must function, and being an eved Hashem requires simchas hachaim, but once a year is the appropriate time to realize the loss. Crying is also healthy in the appropriate time.
Josephus wasn’t exactly frum. Yet he testifies to the existence of this holiday. if Jews didn’t keep it, he wouldn’t write it.
There is a time to cry. We cry over the sad events that take place even though we are aware that it is for a good reason. We say ?? ???? ???? ???? because in the times of Moshiach, we will understand how everything was for our benefit. But in this world, we can only see things as they are, and we must cry. Chazal say that the keruvim faced each other at the time of churban bayis rishon, indicating that Hashem loved us even as the Beis Hamikdash was being destroyed. But as some point, we must move on with life. Shiva is for periods of a week, a month, and a year. Then life gets fully back to normal. The Chazon Ish ZT”L used to say that an eved Hashem who is not happy has a clearly flawed avodah (In Their Shadow).
An example of this dichotomy between the absolute truth ( in this case, everything is for the best) and our perception that it’s bad is the phrase hagadol hagibor vehanora (“The Great, Powerful, and Awesome)”in shemona esrei. These three words were removed by the neviim at the time of the churban bayis rishon- the beis hamikdash is being destroyed and Hashem does nothing? The anshei kenesses hagedolah added them back in- the fact that He controls himself and doesn’t wipe out the attackers shows His strength. The gemara then says that the 3 neviim knew that too, but for them the pain was too near. In other words, pain prevents us from seeing clearly. This is why we cry. However, we are also supposed to move past our personal pain and realize how lucky we are to be punished by Hashem. We said in today’s yom, ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?-?- fortunate is the man whom Hashem punishes. As the Shaarei Teshuva points out, these punishments enable us to realize what’s wrong with our behavior and correct them. If we just gripe about them, we missed the point.
In other words, I’m agreeing with both sides. We feel pain and cry, and are supposed to cry, but we must ultimately keep in mind that everything from Hashem is good- Hashem is the ultimate Meitiv.
These additions are recognized as additions. They do not fit in to the general text. The gemara in Megilla does analyze if megilas esther is considered holy or not, ie does it contain Ruach hakodesh. But the Purim story is accepted by all as historical. The Septuagint has other additions, and Josephus quotes it, but Purim was an established historical fact. Taanis Esther is the strange one, not Purim. Here is the relevant Josephus quote (antiquiites XI) , showing that Purim was celebrated by all long before rabbinic Judaism became the sole branch to survive the Destruction:
In like manner the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together, and feasted on the fourteenth day, and that which followed it; whence it is that even now all the Jews that are in the habitable earth keep these days festival, and send portions to one another. Mordecai also wrote to the Jews that lived in the kingdom of Artaxerxes to observe these days, and celebrate them as festivals, and to deliver them down to posterity, that this festival might continue for all time to come, and that it might never be buried in oblivion; for since they were about to be destroyed on these days by Haman, they would do a right thing, upon escaping the danger in them, and on them inflicting punishment on their enemies, to observe those days, and give thanks to God on them; for which cause the Jews still keep the forementioned days, and call them days of Phurim [or Purim.] (21) And Mordecai became a great and illustrious person with the king, and assisted him in the government of the people. He also lived with the queen; so that the affairs of the Jews were, by their means, better than they could ever have hoped for. And this was the state of the Jews under the reign of Artaxerxes.
When the rishonim dealt with the existence of this fast that they discovered, Yerushalayim was long gone. We still have this problem when Purim falls on a Sunday. Again, this is the sefer ha’eshkol. The original fast of Esther was during Pesach, and the megilla mentions no fasting that took place on the 13th, although Jewish warriors tended to fast.
taanis esther is a fast that is not one of the typical 4 fasts mentioned in Sefer Zecharia (the fast of the 4th month, 5th month, 7th month and 10th month, also known as 17 tammuz, 9 av, tzom Gedaliah Ben Achikam and Asara Beteves). In fact, the rishonim grapple with how it could even be allowed, as it comes the day before a holiday. But it’s not in the gemara. The Raavad in sefer Ha’eshkol says taanis esther is to prevent people from becoming too drunk on erev purim to be yotzei the megilla. As for the authenticity of purim, Josephus refers to it, and the fact that there are preserved in the apocrypha additions to megillas esther (wikipedia says they were written in 170 bce, the time of nes chanukah) shows that it had a universal acceptance.
SJS, thanks for the kind words.
Zalman, When I spoke to Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a , he said it was his father’s pshat. He says he’s not arguing on his father. It’s bavust among the Lower East Siders that Reb Dovid Feinstein ate chalav stam. This wrinkle that the rebbetzin did was new to me, but I heard this story from the source’s husband. IE, it’s not a rumor in the velt, but an accurately traced source. For you it’s hearsay because you have no clue who I am. But I know the source, and for me it’s reliable. This was a person who wanted to keep cholov yisroel when he got married but he couldn’t because his wife kept mentioning this fact, and are they going to be frummer than Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L? As always, ask your local rav- I’m certainly not a rav. But those interested in being mevakesh the emes can find out the truth for themselves.
Joseph, based on what? As far as I know, tissue-asam hayisa lanetzach requires a tissue that lasts forever, and Puffs tend to be stronger than Kleenex.
ZachKessin, agreed that modern medicine is a good thing. So is indoor plumbing. Let’s say you went back in time and met your ancestor from 300 years ago. You describe to him indoor plumbing, and the fact that you can turn on a water and get hot water or cold at the turn of a handle, and how body lice is a thing of the past, and how there is no need to wear furs indoors anymore in the winter. He would look at you and say, “Wow! You just described olam haba! You guys must be so happy!” What’s your response?
Jaymatt, shkoyach for the mareh makom, although Rambam, Rav Hirsch, and other such rationalist approaches are verboten for this thread.
I thought I had everything clear- Reb Moshe ZT”L says only eat chalav stam in a shas hadchak, Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a is more meikel than the other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L, and Reb Moshe ZT”L implied more like the other talmidim, if you look at the printed teshuvos. Well I spoke to my source who said his wife poured chalav stam for Reb Dovid. Turns out she poured chalav stam for REBBETZIN FEINSTEIN A”H, ie Reb Moshe ZT”L’s wife. Obviously, as Hill will point out, this is hearsay- eid mipi eid mipi eidus isha, so kabdeihu vechashdeihu. But as for myself, it seems Reb Dovid Shlit”a may be right after all. My mind is spinning, and not just because my daughter kept me up last night…
Them midrash mentions that klal yisroel planned to use kabbalah to save the beis hamikdash, but Hashem changed the names of all the malachim and it didn’t work. I’m sure technology would have had the same result.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan says that the bayis rishon had chochmah. The bayis sheini had binah, as torah shebaal peh flourished more than the bayis rishon (the Jews didn’t accept torah shebaal peh willingly before Purim). The era of moshiach will have daas, as the gates of knowledge open up to prepare for the coming of Moshiach. It’s in the Aryeh Kaplan Reader (published by Artscroll). According to that, one need not assume that Chazal knew technology.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of knowledge was lost by both churbanos.
Another angle to look at is, are we better off with today’s technology than our ancestors in Europe ( or elsewehere) 300 years ago? From a physical point of view, yes. But not from a spiritual point of view. Chizkiyahu hid the sefer of refuos because he felt it was taking away from everyone’s bitachon in Hashem. In today’s world, technology insulates us from the realities of this world, to the point that our kesher with Hashem is lost. The Kav Hayashar mentions that a good way to develop a kesher with Hashem is to look up at the stars. In today’s light-polluted world, can one do that? Plus, are we happier today than we were 300 years ago? Of course not, because our expectations are higher. 100 years ago, they thought technology would usher a new era of peace. All it did was create ways to kill each other and the world faster. We are working harder and longer than ever. In short, technology has been detrimental, not beneficial. I can see Chaza”l burying this knowledge for the benefit of Jews.
Joseph, you are being very vague here without answering his question. Is this:
1. something that you are noheig lehakeil based on a specific psak, or understanding why it’s ok, or
2. something that you are noheig lehakeil because, like a smoker, it’s something you can’t give up, even though you intellectually know it’s something you should?
I understand either way.
Joseph, agreed 100%. But let’s not pretend Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a doesn’t exist. Facts are facts.
This is more Sheva Brachos Torah than Purim Torah, but it’s also good to be quoted on Purim- not when the wife is around…
It says in Pirkei Avos, ???? ???? ???? ?????. So this means ????? ???? ????? ?????. so how is one allowed to get married? It says ????? ?? ????! So I believe the teretz is,one ????? a person can handle…
Will hill, agreed 100% about your description of gedolim. So when they declare that they made a mistake like Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlit”a said, and when I hear that others said the same thing, I tend to believe them. Which gadol are you referring to who only switched because the leitzanus was toned down? Can you please provide a source? If anything, the ads this year had more leitzanus.
As for your confidence in what askanim can and cannot do, you are sadly mistaken. Most gedolim don’t go to concerts. They are forced to take the word of these askanim as to what goes on. The askan who put together last year’s ban was someone they knew and felt was reliable.
Will Hill, I admire your confidence that there was no such quote from the Chazon Ish, and I was mixing up. However, The quote came from the book “In Their Shadow” page 94, the book which had Rav Chaim Kanievsky affirm the veracity of almost all the stories within. In a machlokes between you and Shlomo Lorincz about what the Chazon Ish held about Neturei Karta, I’m forced to go with him. Here’s the exact quote:
“On another occasion, the Chazon Ish once described Neturei Karta as ‘Jews from before Mattan Torah’, meaning that their zeal was not shaped by the ways of the Torah. “
The preceding story about the Chazon Ish and NK mentioned that one of the younger members of a delegation that accused him of not being sufficiently anti-Zionist acted in an improper manner towards the Chazon Ish and did not live out the year.
Hill of Beans, can you please ask Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a how he can misinterpret such an obvious teshuva?
Oops. It’s yehy shmy rabboo.
Now for everyone’s favorite Purim phrases:
Freylechin Purim becomes Frylichen Pirim.
Venahapoch hu asher yishlitu hayehudim haymah besonayhem becomes Venahapoych hi asher yishliti hayehidim hymoo besoynyhem.
Finally, everyone’s favorite song from the yotzros:
Ki attah hu melech malchei hamlachim malchuso netzach becomes
ki attoo hi maylech malchy hamloochim malchisoy naytzach.
Norasav sichu sapru oozo pearu tzeva’av becomes
noyroosiv sichi, sapri eezo, piaree tzevoo’av
Kadishuhu romimuhu ron shir vashevach tokef tehilos tefarto becomes
Kadishihi roymimihi royn shir vooshayvach toykef tehiloys tefartoy.
Not purim torah per se, but as many people dress up like chassidim on Purim, it pays to know how to convert your litvish or American way of speaking into Chassidish.
The first syllable is almost always emphasized. The second syllable, no matter what it is, is almost always pronounced “ih” or eh”, unless one is davening and emphasizing the words.
The following rules only apply for first syllables.
A litvish “uh” becomes a chassidish “ooh”. “Cholent” becomes “choolent”. “Loshon hara” is “looshin hooreh”. “De rebbe is duh” becomes “de rebbe is dooh”.
A litvish “ah” stays the same, but it’s pronounced longer. also, when we litvaks say “Aye” (rhymes with “tie”) (as in mye-riv”, they say “maah-riv”.
A litivish “Ay” (rhymes with “say”) becomes “Aye” (rhymes with “sky”). So Pesach becomes “Pie-sich”.
A litvish “eh” becomes an “ay” (rhymes with “say”). So “emes” becomes “aymiss”. Melech becomes “maylich”.
A litvish or American “oh” becomes “oy”. so Torah becomes “Toyreh”
A litvish “ooh” becomes “ee”. So kugel becomes “keegel”. Kadishuhu becomes kadishihi.
During davening, all the conversion rules apply since it’s said slowly. So “amein yehay shmay rabba” becomes “oomyne yehye shyma rabboo”.
Cherrybim, I appreciate the compliment, although I acknowledge that I have been wrong plenty of times too.
Smartcookie, arguments are how yeshiva guys communicate.
The chiyuv to start hilchos Pesach starts 30 days before, during Purim.
Good post, TJ. I once heard that the Rabbonim did want to assur driving, but my brother challenged me on this and I couldn’t find an actual mekor for it. I did hear that tackle football and skydiving are assur, but as always, ask your LOR. I remember playing touch football on friday with some Yeshiva chevra, which is muttar according to everybody, and some kid got sandwiched by some “rough touch” types and suffered a bruised kidney, which he discovered hours later. Some other guys used to play tackle, and it seemed like every week someone else broke a finger.
Hill of beans, I posted the actual mekor from Reb Dovid earlier- a sefer Yad Dodi from one of his talmidim. It’s not hearsay.
Check out the picture on the matzav article and you’ll see why it’s deoraysah.
I put my trust in the gedolim. I just don’t believe that vaad hatznius as beating up women is what the gedolim had in mind. Furthermore, what heter is there to beat up a woman, if most poskim hold negiah is assur? I’m not saying one has to tolerate breaches of Tznius. But I doubt Rav Matisyahu solomon meant beating up people. The chazon Ish ZT”L was bothered by chillul shabbos more than anybody, but referred to terrorism of mechallelei shabbos as “yedei eisav”. Please don’t confuse real vaadei tznius with thuggery.
Askan means baalabos doing klal work, not a gadol. Their agendas and actions are not as pure as those from a gadol, who by definition is a tremendous baal middos (Rav Shach told this to Shlomo Lorincz, and Rabbeinu yonah on Pirkei Avos confirms this). When we say daas chachamim hepech midaas baalabatim, we don’t just mean the “left-wing” baalabatim. The chazon Ish ZT”L referred to neturei karta as “Jews from before Mattan torah”, even though their views on Zionism were similar. However, their actions based on those views were so divergent that The chazon Ish ZT”L had to clarify. The Chazon Ish fought Zionism, but he wasn’t about fighting and hatred. Neturei karta, on the other hand, was about fighting, but they happened to be fighting zionism. That is how they could descend into hugging Jew-haters, while the Chazon Ish ZT”L was known for his
Many askanim have personal agendas, or are fooled into believing that all is muttar when you can wrap yourself in the cloak of “leshem shomayim”. One gadol once described this difference as the difference between a house cat and a housewife in terms of mice. both will kill mice, but one would rather the mouse not be there, while the other wants the mouse to be there in order to kill it. As you never know with askanim, it pays to speak to a rebbe for guidance. Finally, Rav Shach ZT”L publicly went against Maarava and Michlala, but told talmidei chachamim working in them to stay. So clearly you can’t go based on kol korehs.
Gedolim are fooled a lot less than you or me, but we Yidden don’t believe Daas Torah means papal infallibility. It means their viewpoint on issues stems from the Torah, not from a personal bias or agenda. Rav Shach helped found the Shas party, and later withdrew his support when they joined with Shulamit Aloni.
Joseph, I can’t see anything. I rely on gedolim. I just don’t rely on kol korehs without further guidance from my own rabbeim. Forged signatures on kol korehs have been known to happen. Furthermore, as Rabbi Fuerst (who has more emunas chachamim then you or me) said when I asked him to clarify his comment about Rav Eliashiv, “she’eilas chacham chatzi teshuva”. Kol korehs aren’t written by gedolim. They are written by askanim. BIG difference. As such, they aren’t always Torah MiSinai.
The recent Yated article about askanim highlighted the dangers of askanim with no daas torah running the agenda. If you speak to any rebbe you are close to, I’m sure he’ll have plenty of stories of askanim and the damage they cause. I’m not saying ignore kol korehs either. I’m saying to speak to your rav or rebbe for more guidance. Nosson Kaminetzky said that when he spoke to Rav Eliashiv about the lanaguage of the kol koreh against his book, Rav Eliashiv said that he never put it in such harsh terms. My rabbeim tell me to find out further guidance about every kol koreh that comes out. If your rabbeim tell you to follow them blindly no matter what, then kol hakavod. My mesorah is different.
So I guess beating a woman and knocking off her sheitel as a member of a vaad hatznius is not considered derech chibah.
Anon, yes, for maaser peiros we are allowed to test Hakadosh baruch Hu. The question is for maaser kesafim in chutz la’aretz. Clearly Hashem rewards those who give tzedakah. But that reward may be in the next world, or in this world in the form of something besides wealth. the person in the story I referenced was told by Rav Scheinberg that either he will get it back or he was mechuyav misa and this was in place of that. He’s still not rich, but he’s happy to be alive.
Good thing u only posted the text- the original article had a rather gruesome picture with it…
The divorced kohen set up with a divorced girl thing happened to a friend of mine. Don’t know how the dialogue went, but I’m sure this hting happens often, as divorced kohanim are thought of as divorced guys, not kohanim who happen to be divorced.
Joseph is right on the birth control issue. i’m not fully clear why this is true even after one has a boy and a girl, but I will hopefully get some clarity later.
Clearly touching a woman shelo bederech chiba is permitted, or else all of the “Vaad Hatznius” gangs would be out of business.
I once was at a chasunah. Took the chosson 6 times to break it. They recommend bringing your own glass, since the caters use thick, break-resistant glass. Same for the tenaim plate.
Aser beshvil shetisasher is only true for maaser peiros. It does not apply to maaser kesafim, which is only a minhag according to most poskim. the gemara in shabbos 119b says that the ashirim in eretz Yisroel are rich because they give maaser peiros. It says the ones in chutz la’aretz are rich because they honor Shabbos. It does not say because they give maaser kesafim. I’m not saying not to give tzedakah. I’m just saying you can’t test Hashem based on this.
I know someone who made a lot of money in the stock market during the tech bubble. He gave maaser and lost it all (900k), except for the maaser. when he spoke to a gadol he was told that either he’ll make it back or was chayav misa and this was in place of it. He still didn’t make it back, and according to my rav, there was never a guarantee anyway. Mitzvos don’t hurt though.If you don’t get the sechar in this world, you get them in the next.
DavidS, the Prisha on the Tur states a woman may learn on her own. The seminaries follow a more lenient ruling, and teach “soft” Torah shebaal peh (Rambans etc) but not hard-core gemara.
The mishna brura says that we are meikel on small-scale purim nezakin.
Feivel, gorgeous pshat.
I heard pshat once that it’s the last time the Chosson gets to put his foot down…
Pashuteh Yid, for those of us not familiar with the metzius of ham radio, can you please describe the typical experience with it, and if you shmoozed with yidden or goyim? Is it just a radio version of an internet chat room?
As for the “quietly withdrawn” part, I was told it was zilusa debei dina to make a public retraction. Again, this is eid mipi eid mipi eid, so as much as I would like to make a bold statement, I frankly can’t. Plus, I don’t understand it, as lezilusa debei dina lo chayashinan. But that’s what I’ve heard. I will try to get some more clarity on this IY”H, although I will understand if my rav is vague on the issue. Fortunately his sons are more free with their speech.
When it first came it there was a big tumult. Many anti-sheitel askanim and kanaim used it to stage sheitel-burning events, and many women gave up their favorite sheitels for these. There were bunches of articles written attacking sheitels in general in the papers too. When it slowly came out that the sheitels were muttar, many of these women felt betrayed (column by rabbi Moshe Grylak in Mishpacha a while back- their site is not responding so I can’t dig up the original). I was told by one of my friends “in the know” (again, unconfirmed, but he’s usually reliable) that there were those in Eretz yisroel spreading the shmuah that Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach assered sheitels at the end of his life, even though his own daughters used to wear them! Such are askanim. That is why I follow my gedolim and rabbeim.
True, it does not. But I was told from my rav ( a talmid of Rav Elyashiv), and from a friend besheim Rav Nachum Eisenstein from Israel (a close talmid of Rav Elyashiv) that it was withdrawn. I have every right to trust them. I do not use absolute statements in my post if I’m not 100% sure of them, so I trade off confidence-building statements for truth.
Please correct my assumptions, and fully explain the metzius of ham radio, and why you got a heter for it.
Just got this from my kosherquest monthly email:
___________________________________
If they could import this stuff, you’d see a lot more chalav yisroel eaters.
I’m partial to truly heimish soda (made with pure erev yom kippur mikveh water)…
mozgin lo kos lo yodea…
The raavad in sefer ha’eshkol says that the reason for taanis esther is so that the Jews don’t start drinking on erev purim and end up missing the megilla…
Joseph, from what I understand (from my Rav who is a talmid of Rav Elyashiv as well as from other sources), the Indian sheitel psak has been quietly withdrawn, based on the Shach that says a double Rov is batel by issurei hana’ah (Rov Indian hair is not from Tirupati, and rov hair is not from India, even if it is 100% avodah zarah, which is debatable). As for the Gedolim who still signed on, I do not know. I am not their talmid, I do not have a kesher with them, and I can only follow my own rabbeim, who don’t endorse concerts but don’t feel they should be banned, as the blowback from last year’s kol koreh confirmed. You clearly believe a concert is worse than ham radio. Unless I’m mistaken, the metzius of ham radio is that you announce your call sign and see who responds. Being that ham radio is not a popular Jewish hobby, chances are you’ll be talking to goyim instead of yidden. Svara pshuta tells me that ham radio is worse than concerts. Have you ever asked a gadol about it? Depending on who you asked, they might tell you that it’s not the best hobby but as long as you’re careful they won’t assur it, as it’s something you personally need. Same thing with concerts.
YW Moderator-42, does that mean you’re (subtly) taking a stand on this issue?