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The Torah uses the word “toeva” to describe the act of homosexuality. It is the strongest word of condemnation the Torah has. The fact is that even many atheists find it completely repulsive. The thought is nauseating for normal people. It’s biologically wrong.I know people who hated the chillul shabbos protests by the chareidim, calling them divisive, but were fuming that the chareidim didn’t make a bigger protest about the toeva parade. There is a midrash that says that Mitzrayim’s fate was sealed when they legally recognized homosexual marriages. I will IY”H hunt it down. I did find a bereishis Rabbah dealing with the dor hamabul that they married animals and males. The Torah is quite explicit in Parshas Veyeira that the Anshei Sdom were wicked, and part of that wickedness is their desire to “know” the guests. This was also before Mattan Torah, and was clearly understood by all to be wrong.
Bottom line- there is no way that a frum Jew can condone toeva marriages. It is no more of a right than homicide.
This is not to condemn those who have thoughts, just as thoughts of homicide without action are not a serious crime.
I went back to my rav, and he said it’s from a Ridvaz.
My Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L didn’t believe in upsherins, but allowed anyone who wanted to give their children one to do it. My Rav does believe in upsherins- not as a chiyuv but as a minhag, and said there are pre-chassidic sources for it. My son didn’t have one, as I didn’t have one. Then I find out from my aunt that my father had one! Nevertheless, he doesn’t remember it, and I didn’t have one. Furthermore, while he had an upsherin, there was no “party” with catered foods and liquor. We did make my son a tzitzis party, as there was a mitzvah involved when he got old enough to put on tzitzis and keep them clean. The cynical side of me thinks upsherins became popular as an excuse to throw a party and waste money, like the “Sheva Brachos party every night” deal. I believe my rav quoted the Mahari”l but I will try to clarify for sure.
It’s not a chiyuv, it’s not avodah zarah, and don’t waste money you don’t have for it.
Areivim, to clarify, I love the computer animation. I also love a lot of the disc, including the Lipa thing. Show me another Chinese Auction that stresses the gashmius as much as this one. when BMG had one it got quickly pulled. A “Wheel of Fortune” setup and a dancing dollar bill named “Fivish” bouncing among prizes is NOT a Torah message, no matter how you spin it. The difference between that and Netflix is one of degree, not of essence. Chasing gashmius is wrong (Lo sachmod), just like watching dvd’s (lo sasuru, abizrayhu degilui arayos, etc) is wrong. I’m fully aware of the good that Oorah does. They run a top-notch kiruv organization. But this is frankly the wrong message. Let’s say they sent out the CD with Lipa, and the cute videos, and did NOT have the bouncing dollar bill. It would totally change the tone of the cd without killing the entertainment value. It would still be cutting-edge and a great fundraiser without sending the wrong message.
Kars4kids- I can’t defend it so I won’t.
Thanks Charlie Brown. Good point.
I heard that the Gr”a was offered to be taught Torah by a Maggid ( a special malach who visits holy people- eg the Mechaber who wrote a sefer based on his visits by said Maggid called Maggid Meisharim). The Gr”a turned down the offer because he wanted to toil on his own. The bracha is “laasok bedivrei Torah”, not “lilmod Torah”.
That said, I’m not yet on the Gra’s level. After a good hour or 2 of hisbodedus, when the Maggid comes, I let the Maggid tell me everything.
Reenmachine, learn it on your own first, then use the Artscroll to see what you missed.
areivim, you have confused 2 separate issues.
Issue #1- should there be Chinese Auctions?
Issue #2: Assuming the answer is yes, should they be over-the-top, “Get your gashmius here!”, anti-Orthodox values in order to make money? Their message to the irreligious is that money is nothing, gashmius is nothing, only ruchnius can bring you true happiness. Then they turn around to the frum community (suffering from the effects of too much gashmius) and offer the exact opposite message! Win gashmius prizes and achieve true happiness! Most other Chinese auctions are not over-the-top, and do reflect the awareness that if they need to do this to raise money, the emphasis is on the organization, not the prizes. An animation showing a dancing dollar bill and highlighted prizes is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the message we need to send our children. Rabbi Shaya Cohen of Priority-1 says that many children go off because of hedonism. Must we stress something that causes kids to go off the derech in order to bring other kids back? If they offered a subscription to Netflix and 100 dvd’s of your choice as a prize, and justified it with “It’s a big money-maker, and helps fund our kiruv programs”, would you have the same viewpoint?
Mepal’s post has been debunked on the mythbusting sites. Sorry Mepal, but the truth is the truth.
The dancing dollar was cute. But is a dancing dollar bill what Yiddishkeit is about? Dollars, prizes, vacations? Is that the message a kiruv organization should be sending? That gashmius is what counts?
I’m thinking of keeping taanis baha”b to help me lose the Yom tov weight…
A good recommendation is a NEAT program. That is, you do little bursts of exercise throughout your day. An easy trick is to stand instead of sit whenever possible- you burn 3 times as many calories standing as sitting.
Joseph, you reached the level of Ruach Hakodesh? I’m still stuck on Taharah!
That said,, is posting a mazel tov to a woman who’s engaged to someone other than yourself a breach of tznius?
I was being facetious.
I had the same problem at megilla this year. Despite the announcement to remove all crying infants, the guy in front of me sat with a crying infant on his lap. He had a kosher megilla, but as for the rest of us…
Mesilas Yesharim defines kanoi. A kanoi isn’t someone with anger issues who bashes people as a way of getting out his anger. A kanoi is someone who loves Hashem and therefore is offended by breaches in Hashem’s honor. Big difference. According to the book “In Their Shadow” by Shlomo Lorincz, the Chazon ish referred to the Neturei karta as “Yidden from before Mattan Torah”, meaning their kinah wasn’t related to the Torah. That is how they were able to hug anti-Semites generations later. The Brisker Rav, the supreme Torah-based kanoi, refused to attend most demonstrations as they were filled with the wrong kind of kanoim. The Brisker Rav (who used to care for mamzer orphans left on his doorstep) and the Chazon Ish (also known for his tremendous chessed and ahavas yisroel) were the right kind of kanoim, which wasn’t sinah but a milchama for Hashem’s honor. It’s better to be known as an eved Hashem than a kanoi. Negative middos like kanois are very dangerous and should only be used by those who can counteract it with Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas habriyos, like Pinchos, the Chazon Ish, and the Brisker Rov.
I once heard a cute vort from Rabbi Berel Wein on a tape, quoting some Rebbe:
Why is Chukas-Balak a double parsha and Mattos-Maasei a double parsha but Pinchas stands by itself? Because nobody wants to be mishtatef with a kanoi!
(I would have said it’s because Pinchos has 167 pesukim, the second-largest Parsha in the torah by pesukim, but that’s why I’m a litvak).
What’s wrong with someone crying at a levayah?
Weather. Politics. Walk around instead of sitting down.
From another website, meant for bne eretz yisroel:
Jerusalem – Gedolim in Bnei Brak have come out against going to hotels for Pesach. A proclamation signed by Rav Y. B. Wozner, Rav Yehuda Silman, Rav Shimon Baadani, Rav Menachem M. Shafran and other rabbonim, states: Trying to enrich themselves at the expense of the chareidi public, businesses are churning out propaganda, a plethora of articles and brainwashing to turn the holy days of Pesach into a “routine vacation” at various hotels in the Dead Sea and Tiverya.
“We want to elucidate,” say the rabbonim, “that the holy days of Pesach were set aside for one generation to pass on faith in Hashem and His Torah to the next generation. The home atmosphere, in which parents sit together with their dear children, is unique for accomplishing this.”
The proclamation also mentions that newspapers and advertising agencies conceal the fact that every hotel room has television and films. They also cover up the fact that singers perform in the evening, whose negative ramifications are well known from the past. Hotels also have other harmful influences which are detrimental to adults and children alike, and which contravene accepted standards of tznius and kedusha.
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The rabbis also state that claims of the level of kashrus in the hotels being akin to the level of kashrus in families’ homes, are not even true during the year round, and all the more so during Pesach. Concerning those who have no choice but to be in a hotel for Pesach and the rest of the year, the rabbis say they should seek the counsel of reliable and responsible rabbonim.
The rabbonim conclude their proclamation by calling on the public to maintain the tradition of previous generations and stringently upholding kashrus, tznius, and kedusha all year round and all the more so on Pesach. They should not be persuaded by people who for the sake of lucre are cavalierly bringing the generation to ruin.
But if the yahrtzeit of the Nosm Elimelech is big, isn’t the yahrtzeit of Moshe Rabbeniu even bigger?
Actually, Kapusta, I thought better of it. A sensible discussion may deteriorate into a litvish-chassidish bashing thread. So let’s just all follow our own gedolim on this. But if you light a candle for the Noam Elimelech, you should definitely light one for Moshe Rabbeinu, who was the greatest member of Klal Yisroel ever (13 ikkarim of the Rambam, Mahara”l in Netzach Yisroel ch.3, etc).
Nothing can compare to the home experience. There are also other problems with hotels besides kashrus (the recent innocent mistake at the schwarma place just re-inforces the kashrus issues). There are also breaches in tznius when strange families end up sitting together. One factor is that some Pesach books have pushed unnecessary chumros in Pesach cleaning, making Pesach cleaning seem impossible. Plus, many people confuse Pesach cleaning for sporing cleaning, making it a daunting task. Perhaps if the Rabbonim could let everyone know that there is no need for excessive cleaning, people won’t feel as overwhelmed.
Rosh Hashana hotels are even wackier than Pesach hotels. Tekiah! Teruah! Tea room! Who’s going to live? Who’s going to die? Who’s going to tea room?
Cherrybim, I agree that being at home is much better. I’m fully aware of the kashrus issues in hotels. Tjhere are also other issues,
Let’s add in another wrinkle here- is going away to Eretz Yisroel and staying in a hotel there the same thing, or is it better? There still is a mitzvah to be oleh regel nowadays, but it means a hotel.
I recommend the works of Rabbi Akiva Tatz and Rabbi Avigdor Miller.
Agreed kapusta, let’s discuss.
Kapusta, this isn’t fighting, it’s arguing, and not in a squabbly way. It’s a yeshivish milchemto shel torah with no hard feelings. When Rabbi yochanan lost Reish Lakish’s chavrusashaft, he complained that his current chavrusa used to bring raayos instead of stiros. Only by arguing (again, without egos, just leshma)can one get anything clear.
Kapusta, Moshe Rabbeinu was bigger than the Noam Elimelech but it’s not the minhag to light for his yahrtzeit. We also say tachanun on Moshe Rabbeinu’s yahrtzeit. Why should a Rebbe be treated better than Moshe Rabbeinu?
I’m a litvak, so no. But hatzlacha rabbah.
Kashrus in hotels has gotten better recently due to the velt becoming frummer, more knowledgeable, and more demanding in their kashrus. That doesn’t change the metzius of whether or not hotels are a good idea. The rabbis who go to hotels usually are there for free as part of the attraction (we have these singers, we have these rabbis, glatt kosher food, swimming and a daf yomi shiur). I spoke to someone whose zeidy used to run one of these hotels, and I was told that they used to be for singles, or older couples with no strength to make their own. Now it has become the “in” thing.
For those who don’t go- if you won a free trip to a Pesach hotel as a Chinese auction prize, would you go, or would you reject it as not being bederech yisroel sabah? Honestly speaking, I realized that I would be sorely tempted to throw my principles out the window if I won. Of course, I still go to the in-laws, so I still get to lock up and leave, just without 24 hour tea room.
flatbush27, according to my rav, if everyone is doing it, then no. If everyone is special, then nobody is special. If nobody dresses up, then doing so makes you stick out. Rav Eisenstark in the Yated chinuch roundtable said women shouldn’t dress up. I’m not sure he’s arguing on my rav- it could be in his area women just don’t dress up.
I had yeshiva friends who worked as pesach hotel mashgichim. Many of them had horror stories, and wouldn’t trust hotel kashrus.
Some letter writer to the Yated once pointed out that in the zman beis hamikdash, it was considered perfectly acceptable to leave your house and go away for Pesach. True enough, but I wouldn’t compare the ruchnius of a “glatt kosher decadent luxury hotel ” to “sleep in a tent on the road with your animals with you” experience.
Squeak, don’t worry about breaking the fourth wall. Between lavud, dofen akumah, and tzuras hapesach, the gedarim of the YWN coffee room are still intact. Besides, drama has long moved past the point where the 4th wall is still sacrosanct.
Famous statement in the velt- if you go to a hotel, they wish you a chag kosher. If you stay home, they wish you a chag sameach…
an open book, go to hebrewbooksonlione.org, type into their hebrew keyboard, and copy and paste the hebrew into here.
My wife saw this good quote today on aish.com- Pain is mandatory. Suffering is optional.
The netziv said that the sin’as chinam by the Second Temple was that many people accused others of being Tzedukim or other breakaway sects without proper justification. That’s what destroyed the beis hamikdash. Unless one knows for certain(ie by speakijng to a rav and making sure his action is correct), one is liable to be oveir terrible aveiros. Machlokes is so terrible that innocent babies died in the machlokes of korach. One must appose reshaim. but one mustn’t assume everyone’s a rasha just because they disagree with your point of view. That’s why we have rabbonim and gedolim.
In a case like this, one must ask a shaila to a rav who is knowledgeable. One doesn’t apply negative actions unless one is sure. Otherwise, it’s just machlokes and sin’ah. In general, one must be very careful when using negative middos. Pinchas didn’t do his heroic deed until confirming with Moshe Rabbeinu that he had the halacha correctly.
Will Hill, my change came from speaking to the husband of the person in question. this isn’t a “friend of a friend” “mipi hashmua” story.
A final addendum to this thread. If you have been skipping this thread until now, please continue to do so.
This was cantoresq’s post from a few days ago:
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Moish01, I’m not sure people really celebrated Purim until after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I wonder if Chazal instituted Purim, a holiday of questionable historicity and which was not observed, to supplant the Feast of Nicanor in order to play down Hasemonean significance.
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A quick googling of “Nicanor” and “Purim” revealed that this is old apikorsus spewed long ago by anti-religious historians like Graetz and his ilk. And just like a mafia don in a suit is still a brutal killer at heart, an anti-religious writer like Graetz with the veneer of “academic historian” is still an anti-religious writer. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L takes him to task numerous times for making up slurs and canards to suit the anti-religious needs of the haskalah view that rabbinic Judaism has no validity. I am posting this lemaan ha’emes, in case anyone’s mind was confused by the blatant apikorsus expressed in this thread.
1. Purim is NOT of questionable historicity. Tanach is emes le-amito. Books of questionable historicity are not part of Tanach. Any doubt as to its authenticity is kefira and apikorsus. Ain mikra yotzei midey peshuto.
2.From an academic point of view, (Torah Nation page 40), the fact that Megillas Esther leaves out Hashem’s name completely shows that it was meant for Persian officials. What other book of Tanach has Hashem’s name expunged from it? The later additions were designed to put Hashem’s name back into the megilla, but were not part of the original.
3. When Graetz spewed his vomit over 100 years ago, archaeologists didn’t excavate Susa yet. So it was easy to say it was made up, and that the capital was Persopolis not Susa. Now they have. This is from a plaque in Darius’s palace in Susa(notice the striking similarities to the abbreviated description in the megilla, and notice Susa WAS inhabited):
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This palace which I built at Susa, from afar its ornamentation was brought. Downward the earth was dug, until I reached rock in the earth. When the excavation had been made, then rubble was packed down, some 40 cubits in depth, another part 20 cubits in depth. On that rubble the palace was constructed.
And that the earth was dug downward, and that the rubble was packed down, and that the sun-dried brick was molded, the Babylonian people performed these tasks.
[=Greeks]
The gold was brought from Lydia and from Bactria, which here was wrought. The precious stone lapis lazuli and carnelian which was wrought here, this was brought from Sogdia. The precious stone turquoise, this was brought from Chorasmia, which was wrought here.The goldsmiths who wrought the gold, those were Medes and Egyptians. The men who wrought the wood, those were Lydians and Egyptians. The men who wrought the baked brick, those were Babylonians. The men who adorned the wall, those were Medes and Egyptians.
Darius the King says: At Susa a very excellent work was ordered, a very excellent work was brought to completion.
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4. Hendin’s Guide to Ancient Jewish Coins has a few coins clearly done in Persian style. One is labeled “Yechezkia the Pecha (aka Persian governor). clearly the jews were subservient to Persia.
5. Jerusalem had a “Shushan” gate, clearly showing a subservience to Persia.
6. There were many other Jewish sects at the time during the Second temple. If there was an alternative history, Josephus (who doesn’t toe the Rabbinic Judaism line) would have mentioned it, or one of the dead sea scrolls. none of them mention it.
7. Maseches Sofrim (found in the same gemara as Avodah Zarah for those who want to look it up at home) chapter 17 says that Taanis Esther is observed as a Monday-Thursday-Monday fast. However, “Our rabbis in Eretz Yisroel observe Taanis esther after Purim due to Nicanor Day”. The small masechtos were authored by the Savoraim in the 600’s. So this is hundreds of years after Nicanor Day, it’s still being celebrated, and they work it out to not interfere with Taanis Esther. No such conflation of Nicanor and Purim. No such hiding of the Hasmonean successes. No conflict between Taanis Esther and Nicanor day- they worked it out.
8. Finally, as posted earlier, Maccabees II mentions quite clearly that Purim and Nicanor day were separate holidays.
As is quite evident, Graetz’s kefira about Purim has no basis, neither from a Torah perspective nor from an academic perspective.
Perhaps boys need to start being allowed to do jobs again in the summer, to gain a much-needed sense of responsibility, enabling them to handle the achrayus of marriage at a younger age.
Aish.com is having a series on maaser. Very interesting. they talk about what to do if you can’t afford maaser.
Costumes on Purim- I finally bit the bullet and asked my rav. He said in a community where everyone is doing it, they don’t attract undue attention. If nobody is doing it, then a purim costume attracts undue attention. So in a yeshivish community, wearing a costume is a lack of tznius. Otherwise, it’s acceptable, assuming the costume follws the halachic standards of tznius. But clearly, as with many areas of tznius, hamachmira tavo aleyha bracha as long as one doesn’t look down on those who do wear costumes.